Looking to end my suffering caused my attachment to dependan

[ilazmit]

Bonjour Jon,
If you are the river, you are part of it all. To choose you would have to be apart or separate. You are choosing between two things that never were in your control, since you have no control over the voice-over "thoughts". There is no " you" only consciousness, which is a result of culture, history , society. Consciousness is a tool to try to control our environment, but it is a lie. Language is a lie. A picture is not a separate image it is in relation to you, which is in relation to everything else.
I'm not too familiar with the concept of free will.
Hope you are enjoying fine weather,
Sandy

[ilazmit]

Jon ,
There is only direct experience, no tomorrow or yesterday. Does the picture exist if no one is there to look at it?
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Bonjour Sandy,

(Are you in France, by any chance)?

Thanks for your posts.

If you are the river, you are part of it all. To choose you would have to be apart or separate. You are choosing between two things that never were in your control, since you have no control over the voice-over "thoughts". There is no " you" only consciousness, which is a result of culture, history , society. Consciousness is a tool to try to control our environment, but it is a lie. Language is a lie. A picture is not a separate image it is in relation to you, which is in relation to everything else.

This is all great. What you say about things never having been in your control.

Here is an exercise... it is important to try it. It's to do with 'choice'.

Place both hands on a table in front of you. In a moment one will get raised in the air and the other will stay where it is. The key thing is to look for the exact moment of choice, the choice-point, where one hand is chosen instead of the other.

What do you find?

Here is another short exercise. in a while, go and make a warm drink. Could be tea or coffee. The type of drink doesn't matter. Once you have made the drink, bring it back here and read the rest of this...DON'T read ahead now. it is important to read the rest after you get back.

***

Now that you are back, did you notice a 'decision' to get up out of your chair? Were decisions made to heave the body into an upright position? Was there deciding about how much weight to shift onto each foot as the legs swing back and forth making 'walking' happen? Was there a decision about the route to be taken to the kitchen? Was there a decision about which drink you'd make, or did that happen by its self?

What do you find?


best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
I come from Quebec, What I found when I did your exercises was that I did them without the voice over, automatically. Voice over comes later.

Bonne soirée,
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Bonjour Sandy,

Canada. Wow. Great mountains and snow!

What I found when I did your exercises was that I did them without the voice over, automatically. Voice over comes later.

Isn't that great? No voice over, at least, not until later. Is that something you've noticed happening at other times recently?

It's good to notice this no voice over at various other times, when you're out walking, for instance, or washing up...whatever.

Is it all happening without a 'doer' to 'make it happen'? Including the voice that comments about it?


Love,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,
Yup, land of the ice and snow. I think I read somewhere that you are from Colorado, nice, warmth. At times this entity does things because the voice over tells it to , and other times this entity does things from some habit , conditioning or reflex. I don't think there is a doer. Just a voice over that berates after certain reflexes have been completed. I haven't a clue if entity is the right word. Like the picture , which doesn't contain color in and of itself.....this entity doesn't exist by itself. Sometimes I wonder if I make any sense at all. Ah well c'est la vie.
Love,
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hello Sandy,

Colorado... I wish. Rainy old England.

At times this entity does things because the voice over tells it to

Which entity is that? Is it really 'there'?

I can understand what you mean about the voice-over that seems to direct events by issuing statements or instructions. It is often assumed that these are instructions 'to someone', an entity, 'me'. But is an entity really 'there'?

It can be said that 'There is a University'. A university comprises some buildings, faculties, resources, students, lecturers, libraries, computers, arts-centre, open areas, courses, debates and so on. But is the entity 'University' anywhere to be found? It's an idea, isn't it? Not a real THING.

I haven't a clue if entity is the right word. Like the picture , which doesn't contain color in and of itself.....this entity doesn't exist by itself. Sometimes I wonder if I make any sense at all. Ah well c'est la vie.

That makes perfect sense! It doesn't exist by its self. It's a thought, an idea, like University. A description.

Do you think that instead of 'entity' we might change that to apparent entity ? Would that make sense to you?


Love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

Merry old England, It does rain often there.

Apparent entity makes sense to me, sounds good and makes life seem fluid less static, ideas flow.

Luckily for you the flowers should start blooming in a couple of months. when I last visited in May it was beautiful.

love,
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hello Sandy,

Yes. Roll on May!

Apparent entity makes sense to me, sounds good and makes life seem fluid less static, ideas flow.

Ok. good. Yes, all sorts of ideas come and go. Even commentary about a 'me' appears and later on seems to disappear. Would you say this is true?

Is it clear that there is no entity behind this? That flow of sensations, flow of thoughts just happen?

that although there are thoughts that reference a 'me', that comment and criticize, emotions that blow up like wind, even bodily sensations suggestive of 'me', no self is found?

Look now. Is there a self here right now?

Would you say that it is seen that there is no self?

Love

Jon

[ilazmit]

Jonathan,
If there was a self in consciousness, alcoholics, drug addicts, food addicts, smokers and stupid romantics would have no problem kicking there bad habits. Nope, no one steering the ship.
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Okay Sandy,

Great. So, do you feel you have seen through the illusion of a separate self?

I'd be interested to know if you have noticed any change in your experience? I don't mean sudden transportation to heaven but, for instance, in the way thoughts are experiened? At the start of this inquiry you talked about the painfulness of certain thoughts. How do those voices seem now?

Best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

Hope all is well with you across the ocean,

So, do you feel you have seen through the illusion of a separate self?

I think I have seen through the illusion. With time I should feel the effects more. What I've noticed is that I am very hard on myself, somewhat negative and very sensitive to criticism. But, even the one who is monitoring, evaluating, and comparing is an illusion. I would love to be at the point were I am the sunny ski and my thoughts are just clouds. Love that image and use it when a negative thought really tries to cling around.
I've become aware that I do not have to cling to another like two shipwrecked beings. The soul-mate idea suggests two selves. Love is all around me. I'm o.k. with not getting a valentine from the one I thought was my soul-mate.

Love Sandy

[ilazmit]

Hello again Jon,

To be honest, there is euphoria, bravery and love.
Sandy

[JonathanR]

Hi Sandy,

Thanks for your lovely replies.

To be honest, there is euphoria, bravery and love.

That's beautiful. I'm so pleased for you.

I think I have seen through the illusion. With time I should feel the effects more. What I've noticed is that I am very hard on myself, somewhat negative and very sensitive to criticism. But, even the one who is monitoring, evaluating, and comparing is an illusion.

That's right. At least, it is possible to look for one that is behind it all, behind senses, behind thoughts. Can that one ever be found?

The effects you mention. They won't happen to an 'I' will they? I mean, it seems plausible that whatever effects may be experienced might come from seeing no self. But sure, many false or shaky views, thoughts and feelings may begin to fall off.

The very hard thoughts. These don't come from 'you', (in the sense of a 'you' that 'causes' them', do they? Nor is there actualy a 'self' that they 'happen to', is there? At least, can either of these entities be found? But thoughts do actually happen. There is no denying that.

Perhaps there has been a long habit of imagining that such thoughts are a personal creation that is the fault of their creator? Anyway, even long habits can loosen and fall away. How much bite can thoughts have if they don't have anyone to bite or a believer in what they announce?

Love that image and use it when a negative thought really tries to cling around.
I've become aware that I do not have to cling to another like two shipwrecked beings. The soul-mate idea suggests two selves. Love is all around me. I'm o.k. with not getting a valentine from the one I thought was my soul-mate.

Very beautiful Sandy.

I'm inclined to ask you six questions that we ask everyone at this stage. Do you feel ready for them?


Best wishes,

Jon

[ilazmit]

Hello Jon,

Very beautiful Sandy.

My favorite quote so far. How old are you? Just skidding. Sure ask me anything.

Feel a little giddy this morning.
Love
Sandy