Curiosity

[JonathanR]

Hi Tim,

Well, I'm glad I asked the recent batch of questions.

This fear of guides and mistrust. It might have been easier on me if you had admitted that to start with. Why didn't you?

Jon

[Dsydnll]

Hi Jon,

Well, I'm glad I asked the recent batch of questions.

Most of this had already been covered in previous posts Jon.

This fear of guides and mistrust. It might have been easier on me if you had admitted that to start with. Why didn't you?

I really don't know how you have arrived at this assumption. This is simply not the case.

Please actually read what I typed. If you read it again, you will note that I was only trying to reconcile beliefs. Not once have I mentioned any fear of guides and mistrust. I was concerned after reading a post that this process may lead me to a place that I hadn't intended to go- That's all.

Please also provide an example of any occasion where I haven't been completely open and honest with you.

Again, you have completely ignored the true content of the post and brought it back to how it is affecting you. Is this really what 'awakening' is about?

I'm speechless!

I have invested so much time and energy in this process for the past month and now what?

Tim

[JonathanR]

Tim,

You think I have not invested time and energy too? Listen, I'm offering to guide you, not the other way around. I'm not answering any of your questions.

You have somehow read yourself into thinking you understand no self. This extra-curricular research of yours has resulted in some false conclusions.

You had one foot in the gate earlier, perhaps you still do, because you were willing to look and inquire when I asked questions about 'self'. So far so good.

But this business of reading around, in order to marry what you saw as a confict of between belief in 'God' and 'absence of free will', has led to false conclusions. If I am to assist you further we will need to examine 'no free will' again.

In fact there need be no conflict of interests, but the matter has to be faced. 'No free will' is not about accomodating a religious belief, it is not an intellectual or metahysical or theoretical standpoint, any more than not being able to find a self is. It is necessary to go deeply into this, to exhaust any possibility that free will, choice or decision, could be anything more than illusion. Are you prepared for this?


Jon

[Dsydnll]

Hi Jon,

I appreciate your time and always have, this is not in dispute. This is not a personal issue as far as I'm concerned, I'm sure you are a perfectly decent chap doing your best. There is however more resistance than there was.

I am happy to look at the truth if you are still happy to help but please bear in mind that sometimes clarification may be required.

Kind regards, Tim


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[Dsydnll]

And in the interests of openness and honesty, in frustration, yesterday I read a few pages of Krishnamurti.

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[JonathanR]

Hi Tim,

Good to know you'd like to continue to look. I'm stepping aside now and another guide has offered to assist you from here.

All the best,

Jon

[Dsydnll]

Ok Jon,

I genuinely wish you all the best and thank you for your help.

With kind regards,

Tim

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[vinceschubert]

Hi Tim, vince here.
i'm not going to read what had transpired on this thread (yet) so that we can come at this from a fresh perspective. (things have probably changed since you started it anyway)
Please give me a rant on what you currently see as the reality of a(your) Self and another rant on what your current expectations are for how this might work out.

vince

[Dsydnll]

Hi Vince,

It is a pleasure to make your acquaintance.

i'm not going to read what had transpired on this thread (yet) so that we can come at this from a fresh perspective. (things have probably changed since you started it anyway)

Sounds good and yes things have changed. Thank you.

Please give me a rant on what you currently see as the reality of a(your) Self and another rant on what your current expectations are for how this might work out.

The Self is a label for a learned mental structure/perspective and does not exist outside of thought. It relates everything to itself, how does this affect me? etc. There is a body that functions, sensations and thoughts are experienced and this would continue without the bias of the self. In saying that, there is also a 'sense' of self which is again a thought/label and maybe in fact this is just a sense of 'being'.

In times of quiet, I can look with honesty and find no 'self', no 'barrier', just experience. If I look beyond sensations, beyond thought, and beyond the perception of this experience, I find something that can not be described (it just is). Any label would need to be translated and therefore would be open to subjective interpretation.

As the day gets busy, the self becomes less 'illusive' as learned thoughts and reactions take place. However, I have to say that experience is far less personal than it was and there seems to be a process of 'unravelling' taking place. Thoughts are also far less intrusive than they were and there is no doubt that current experience is calmer than it was.

Current Expectations:

Not much really- A continuation of the progress made so far. It would be nice to attend more to life 'outside of thought' and experience life in the healthiest way possible. I would like to think that there would be more space for love and compassion by becoming more 'selfless'.

I hope this makes sense.

Thank you sincerely for your assistance.

Tim

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Tim.
Would you say that you have experienced a 'shift' ?
What is your initial reaction to the following question;
Is there an experience-er experiencing the experienced ?

Oh, and i really enjoyed your rants..

vince

[Dsydnll]

Hi Vince,

Good evening to you and thank you for your response. It's 2pm in the afternoon here so I'm guessing you may not see this till morning.

Would you say that you have experienced a 'shift' ?

There has certainly been a 'shift' of sorts but possibly still shifting. Looking back and comparing present experience to the early days of this process, there is no doubt that life is presently much calmer.

What is your initial reaction to the following question;
Is there an experience-er experiencing the experienced ?

Without thoughts, there is only experience (no experience-er experiencing the experienced). The 'experience of thoughts' depends on the nature of the thoughts. There can be the experience of 'thinking without a thinker' when thoughts are not possessive/owned in nature. When thoughts or 'thoughts about experience' are possessive and self-referenced, there is the illusion of the thinker and the experiencer (e.g. 'what shall I do later' or 'I am typing now'). I have to say though, that self-referenced thoughts seem to have less 'impact' than they did.

Oh, and i really enjoyed your rants..

Thank you very much.

With warm regards,

Tim

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Tim,

there is no doubt that life is presently much calmer.

Would you expect this of always be this way ?

I have to say though, that self-referenced thoughts seem to have less 'impact' than they did.

Are you doing something to help this happen ?

What would (you imagine) your reaction be, to somebody verbally abusing you ?

Have you experienced anything that you might label wisdom, yet ?

love

vince

[Dsydnll]

Good evening Vince,

I hope you are well.

Dsydnll wrote:
there is no doubt that life is presently much calmer.

Would you expect this of always be this way ?

I don't expect life itself to be calmer but I hope my experience of life will be. I hope that I will be able to remain calmer and less reactive, taking life less personally.

Dsydnll wrote:
I have to say though, that self-referenced thoughts seem to have less 'impact' than they did.

Are you doing something to help this happen ?

No, although I think that this process and times of quiet are helping.

What would (you imagine) your reaction be, to somebody verbally abusing you ?

I imagine that I will be less reactive, taking things less personally than previously although the initial automatic reaction may still be defensive.

Have you experienced anything that you might label wisdom, yet ?

This I can't say. There is possibly increased understanding and it appears that I am communicating more intelligently but my actions don't support an increase in wisdom (last night I got slightly drunk). I continue to experience synchronicities although I don't know if this is relevant.

Thank you for your continued support.

With love,

Tim

[vinceschubert]

'evening Tim.

I hope that I will be able to remain calmer and less reactive, taking life less personally.

i know what you mean. ..but let's go deeper. What you say implies that life happens to you ?
Tell me a good story about the relationship with life-ing.

I think that this process and times of quiet are helping.

Yes, you could say that they are a couple of the necessary conditions for that to happen.
If the inclination to guide arises, when the conditions are right, that also contributes (in a big way).

but my actions don't support an increase in wisdom

Oh. i wasn't asking if you were identifying as a wise person (especially one that never enjoys a change in consciousness) No. i was asking if you detected anything that might be described that way. ...and this

increased understanding and it appears that I am communicating more intelligently

sounds like a good (partial) definition of wisdom to me.

If you find yourself in a heightened negative emotional state, what usually follows ?
Do you recognize it before/during/after the happening ?
What is the nature of the thoughts that arise ?
Do these thoughts give rise to emotions ?

love

vince

[Dsydnll]

Hi Vince,

i know what you mean. ..but let's go deeper. What you say implies that life happens to you ?
Tell me a good story about the relationship with life-ing.

There still appears to be subjective experience of life and this experience still sometimes/often includes a 'sense' of self, although when quiet this can be seen as an illusion. Thoughts, sensations and actions are often reactive. For example, you gave the example of verbal abuse- this is currently seen as a 'movement' of life that may cause reaction from this perspective. In a similar way, if somebody threw a ball and it was heading towards my face, this body's hand would hopefully raise and block the ball. So all is life but it appears that there is action and reaction. This body reacts and thoughts may also be reactive, I am currently reacting to your questions. The reaction from this/my perspective is the only one that is experienced by me. The clouds may move from left to right or right to left dependent on where this body is standing. The weather will affect this/my experience in all manner of ways.

I don't think that life happens to me, I am also life but there still appears to be a subjective experience.

Yes, you could say that they are a couple of the necessary conditions for that to happen.
If the inclination to guide arises, when the conditions are right, that also contributes (in a big way).

If I ever get to where there this process is designed to take me, I'm sure the inclination to guide will follow and look forward to it.

If you find yourself in a heightened negative emotional state, what usually follows ?

I'm not quite sure I understand the question fully or that I can answer it experientially at the moment. But from memory, any emotional state is experienced as a combination of thoughts and sensations. What usually follows? Another state, possibly calm or tiredness.

Do you recognize it before/during/after the happening ?

Emotional states can only be experienced in the present. Thoughts about the emotional state can also only be experienced in the present but their content may reflect the past.

What is the nature of the thoughts that arise ?

Thoughts may be reactive to the emotional state or causal to the emotional state, part of the emotional state or independent of the emotional state.

Do these thoughts give rise to emotions ?

It appears that thoughts do sometimes give rise to emotions but it appears that emotions are also caused/influenced by the environment (for example, S.A.D.). Sometimes we may wake up sad or happy for no apparent reason. Is this because of thoughts during sleep? I don't know. It appears that without thought, emotions become sensations and without sensations emotions become thoughts. Emotions seem to be a combination of both thought and sensation.

I'm not entirely happy with my responses to your questions but I have to work so will send as is.

Thank you as always for your time and support.

With love,

Tim