Semi-Professional Seeker

[Alex L]

Even assuming there are inherently existing others, do these others have choice, control, free-will?

yes, that should have been my question. I feel like it is a big one. Interested: Is there further guidance?

As for my answers:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No. Only an imagined one. There was never a separate self!

2) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference between 'now' and from before you started this dialogue? Perhaps give a report from the past few days (weeks)?

Liberating. Extremely liberating at times. The days are brighter, sounds are crisper, feelings more definite. Lost in thought less often. I mean, this is all there is! Ha!

Of couple of the days ago I woke up early and meditated, like i often do in early morning. After the session, i lay in bed for an hour or two, experiencing extreme lucidity. My deep breathing could be heard and warm sensations all over my body--it felt like my body had gone to sleep but the mind was still awake! Refreshed when i rose. That was priceless.

Other than that, mostly walking around with greater attention to the senses. Not sure I've mastered conversations with others--but that is surely only an idea. I've relaxed quite a bit but sill feel a slight application of intention.

3) Was there a last bit that pushed you over? Made you look and realise? Perhaps something that was mentioned, or something that you looked into yourself?

I came in with what i would describe as the basic understanding that self was illusory. Seeing that there was no seer or chooser was an important step. But the kicker had to be the idea of thoughts (ego) built on top of over thoughts ("I"). How ridiculous and unbelievable!

THANK YOU!

[Alex L]

sorry on the second last sentence should read "...thoughts (ego) built on top of other thoughts (I).

[Xain]

I've relaxed quite a bit but sill feel a slight application of intention.

Is it personal?

Here are the last three of the six questions:

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Please give examples from experience if possible.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Xain ♥

[Alex L]

I've relaxed quite a bit but sill feel a slight application of intention.

Is it personal?

hmm. No, i don't suppose my imaginary self is applying intention.

Perhaps there is a wish that the imaginary self was a bit more relaxed (a wish about a thought). Perhaps this self should stop drinking coffee or give his meditation practice a break (an idea about a thought). So great that there's no one who can make or effect these decisions, ha!

4) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self is the idea that there is an entity called Alex who has a history, possessions and desires, etc. It seems to attach itself to experiences and actions: "I" see; "I" hear; "I" decide; "I" mow the lawn; and "I" scratch my nose, for example. The separate self becomes the seer, hearer, decider, scratcher. There are belief systems layered on this imaginary self including ego, desires, wants, dislikes, etc.

One interesting thing that i noticed was a tendency for the imaginary self to "hijack" operations. In our conversation i referred to this as "selfing". I saw this happening when, for example, walking down the street less than mindfully, the imaginary self takes hold and relives dramatic scenes or conversations. I was wondering why this was not explored but now see it as thoughts (the ego) having thoughts about illusory things (the past)--a tad ridiculous when i look at it that way!

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for?

I could not find what decides, chooses or controls. I could not make a simple choice. Decision, intention and free will are only concepts and not my experience.

I raised my hand but could not find a controller. Things seem to just happen. The imaginary "i" is not responsible for things that cannot be controlled for at least two good reasons.

6) Do you have anything else you would like to say or add?

Two things. First, since we didn't fully explore it, I wonder if there is more to say about selfing. I understand that it's ridiculous but still, an interesting finding for me. And second, I really liked the gingerbread man analogy (run, run, run as fast as you can ...) and sad it was dismissed.

THANK YOU XAIN!

Alex

[Xain]

What is 'selfing'? I've not heard of it before.
What is doing it?
How is it relevant / important to this discussion?

Xain ♥

[Alex L]

What is 'selfing'? I've not heard of it before.
What is doing it?
How is it relevant / important to this discussion?

I'm not sure where this term came from but it works for me. I've been aware of it for a while. In my first vipassana retreat 5yrs ago, for ex., i remember walking back from the meditation hall and noticing an invisible narrator putting the scene before me into words. Not too dissimilar from a witness, i suppose.

But over the last few weeks, i noticed "a tendency for the imaginary self to "hijack" operations...walking down the street less than mindfully, the imaginary self takes hold and relives dramatic scenes or conversations."

Dont know what is doing "selfing" but here's a thought: it could be the ego building fortifications around itself.

Whether this is important is up to debate. It seems like an imaginary self (a thought) having its own thoughts. But seeing this more clearly for what it is was an important step for me.

Best

[Alex L]

Dont know what is doing "selfing" but here's a thought: it could be the ego building fortifications around itself.

That parts does sound a bit weak, clearly an imagined ego can't do much. How about it just happens?

Best

[Xain]

Hi Alex

The other guides have had a look at our conversation and are all happy that you've realised and 'gone through the gate'.
Yes, there is further looking to be done if it interests you and there are both groups on this forum and on Facebook for this purpose. There are also groups on Facebook for new arrivals and general chat with others who have 'seen'.
If you are on Facebook and you would like me to add you to these groups, please let me know your name and/or Facebook page link via a private message and I can arrange this for you (click the red name 'Xain' and choose 'Send Private Message'). You can always send me a message if you would like to examine things further with me.

This guidance is at an end, and thank you for sticking with the process Alex.
I will catch you further down the line.

Xain ♥

[Alex L]

there is further looking to be done if it interests you and there are both groups on this forum and on Facebook for this purpose.

So nice to pick up this message. Definitely interested in additional looking. will send PM

thank you for sticking with the process

Was there a choice not to stick with it? :-D

THANK YOU!!