Triratna OM Guide please

[Dee]

Hello Dridhamati

Sorry I've taken so long. I've been overrun with work and as a result other things that I need to do have taken up much of my time. I'm have been considering the question. Back soon - ish!

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

No worries Dee. :-)
Best
Dridhamati

[dridhamati]

All good Dee?

Best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati

I keep looking! noticing experiences and concepts. I have taken on work where I get no breaks. Evenings have been taken up with meetings, other work etc. I will try to make time tomorrow evening to consider the questions.

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Thanks for the news.
No hurry.

All the best.
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hello Dridhamati

Here are my replies ...
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No! It's an illusion. I is an illusion, me is an illusion, self is an illusion - all concepts. There are experiences via the senses - eye, ear, nose, tongue, body mind- vision sensations, sound sensations, smell sensations, taste sensations, touch sensations. Anything on top of those sensations is a concept that has been learned

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

I don't remember being a baby - we learn that we have a name and associate ourselves with that name. We learn that our adults and siblings and furniture, food, bottle, etc all have names and we build up this complicated world of separateness. We learn behind, in front of etc.

Barriers "separate" me from other. "I" need to survive, progress, achieve, fit in, protect my space.

"I" have my preferences - like, dislike - from temperature, to others, to thoughts, concepts, beliefs. All concepts.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Letting go of control. Not taking things personally. Nothing to defend. Although this was my approach before the dialogue there seems to be a greater understanding of why.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Santa Claus! Never real but I really did believe.
Seeing that sensations are just there.
The cat's eyes helped realise that vision was out there.
Having an experience of sound being energy and experiencing that energy.
Looking more closely or carefully at sensations.

I read something - no difference between observer, observing and observed (or something like that) - no separating line.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I don't know. Perhaps things can be directed to some extent but mostly life just does what it's doing. No control. Thoughts aren't mine as there is no me. Where do the thought come from. Sensations.

Madness!

6) Anything to add?

This experience - dialogue - has helped "me" to understand previous experiences. Everything being just perfect (with a sense of expansion) when dad was in intensive care; looking out at nature (twice) and there being a sudden expansion; a sense of expansion in meditation; on retreat in silence while having lunch, listening to sounds - a sense of expansion. Expansion - hard to describe - an opening out, including "me".

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Thanks for the answers. Great stuff.

Q5 seems to remain a bit of a question mark.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

I don't know. Perhaps things can be directed to some extent but mostly life just does what it's doing. No control. Thoughts aren't mine as there is no me. Where do the thought come from. Sensations.
Madness!

For example:
“Perhaps things can be directed to some extent but mostly life just does what it's doing.”
Does anything in experience give a clue to who/what is ‘directing things’?

Using simple daily activities (cooking, eating, etc), try and find how the activity started. There might have been a thought about hunger, and it is assumed the hunger thought is responsible for the cooking and eating.
But can a thought ‘do’ anything? Can the ‘action’ of a thought be observed?
Can anything be observed in experience that asserts the “hunger thought -> cooking-eating” causality assignment?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hi Dridhamati

Thanks for this.
Dee wrote:
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I don't know. Perhaps things can be directed to some extent but mostly life just does what it's doing. No control. Thoughts aren't mine as there is no me. Where do the thought come from. Sensations.
Madness!
For example:
“Perhaps things can be directed to some extent but mostly life just does what it's doing.”
Does anything in experience give a clue to who/what is ‘directing things’?

Using simple daily activities (cooking, eating, etc), try and find how the activity started. There might have been a thought about hunger, and it is assumed the hunger thought is responsible for the cooking and eating.
But can a thought ‘do’ anything? Can the ‘action’ of a thought be observed?
Can anything be observed in experience that asserts the “hunger thought -> cooking-eating” causality assignment?

Driving home (decided to get in car/thought) from work (thought - next part of day) to a Buddha Day celebration was interesting. The shrine was to be my first activity (memort/thought) when I arrived (memory/thought) i was imagining the layout of the shrine, cloths, Buddha, candles, etc. (thoughts - one arising after the other) until I could see the whole shrine (thoughts). I had driven half way home without noticing my actions. The actions seemed to be habit like - responding to road conditions, other cars.
The thoughts did not do anything themselves but they prompted actions.
Today-Walking from my car I noticed that "I" saw (vision) a woman wearing sandles and I remembered (memory/thought) that I wanted to buy some flip flops. "i" started walking towards the shoe shop. I walked past holland and Barrett and remembered (memory/thought) I wanted some flax seed so I walked in to the shop and bought it. Thoughts were directed the walking direction. The thought didnt do anything. Vision prompted the thoughts. Thoughts promoted the action
The action seems to be a "movement" of energy and sensations. Constantly changing.
There is no being directing. It's a freeing feeling to notice the process. Lighter.
Hope you are well.
Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Thanks for the examples.

The action seems to be a "movement" of energy and sensations. Constantly changing.
There is no being directing. It's a freeing feeling to notice the process. Lighter.

Yes, very liberating isn’t it.

However the following comments need challenging:

...The thoughts did not do anything themselves but they prompted actions...
...Thoughts were directed the walking direction. The thought didnt do anything. Vision prompted the thoughts. Thoughts promoted the action...

Is this what is observed Dee? Or is this inferred, at a later stage, from the memory of several consecutive experiences?
Breaking down the jandals story for example:
- experience 1: a vision of a woman wearing sandals.
- experience 2: a thought -‘must buy flip flops’.
- experience 3: walking.
1. What is observed in experience 2 that says experience 1 is a cause for experience 2?
And similarly:
2. What is observed in experience 3 that says experience 2 is a cause for experience 3?
3. When in direct experience, can this causality be observed?
4. Can an agent for actions -and thoughts- be found?

I am well, thanks. I trust you too are well. Busy with work I assume?

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Hello again

1. See sandles
Want - grasping. Urge
Thought - must buy flip flops - this is a narrative/story!
Move towards - walk/action


This seems clearer ...
See cup of tea
Want it - not a thought as such, but an urge
Arm goes out to get it
Move to mouth
Swallowing
Story not involved.
All experienced in the present moment

Neck aching - sensations
don't want "aching" - unpleasant - urge to stop current flow of sensations
Moved body - action
Unpleasant sensations stop
Stop moving body

Lots of things all just happening. I can't spot causality as such, I experience one sensation after another

They are all experienced in the present moment. All of it is in the present moment.

4. There is no agent to be found.

Best wishes d

[dridhamati]

Hi Dee,

Thanks for this detailed post.

...Thought - must buy flip flops - this is a narrative/story!
...All experienced in the present moment

Lots of things all just happening. I can't spot causality as such, I experience one sensation after another

They are all experienced in the present moment. All of it is in the present moment.

4. There is no agent to be found.

That is also the experience here: no agent can be located; sensations are observed.

I find great beauty in this mystery. Thank you for the opportunity to guide you.

I’ve asked other guides to check this dialogue in order to make sure there were no stones left unturned, where the delusion might still hide...
I’ll let you know very soon over a personal message here on the LU forum.

Again many thanks Dee.

All the best
Dridhamati

[Dee]

Thank you Dridhamati
Best wishes d

[Dee]

Thank you so much. I would love to carry on with some more discovery.
Best wishes d