The Gate

OK, Ideas, even good ideas, and really creative ones at that, just arrive in consciousness (there is no entity which decides 'Mmm, OK, I will just have that good idea right now!')

Yes or no Hannah?
Mbx

Yes I agree! That's why they seem so exciting when they do arrive!

Yes I agree! That's why they seem so exciting when they do arrive!

Lovely stuff Hannah! I never thought of that before. Yes, it is like getting a present and just like an ideal present at the right moment too.

OK some recappy stuff now. It looks like a lot but when you read it you will see it's not actually! Answer each question please.



'As always, in Direct Experience:

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?'
Mbx

Ok, in response to your questions,

Have you been able to find, a ‘self’ that is the ‘experiencer’?

No, I can see that the sense of continuity that gives rise to an illusion of self is made up of the skandhas, and reinforced by habit. That covers it all and answers my earlier questions about choice, decision making and responsibility.

Or a self that is the doer, or can control what happens?

No

Or a self that ‘makes’ decisions?

No

Or a self who ‘does the thinking’?

No

Is the "body" just another thought label for sensations (namely tactile & kinesthetic)?

Yes

Are the five body senses made to arise or experienced by this ‘self’?

No, they arise in response to conditions or stimuli, they are not controlled by a 'self'

Is there a self ‘in here’ which is separate from the world and others ‘out there’?

No, but I still feel separate most of the time. Although today was the first day of this straw bale building course, meeting 25-30 new people. I was amazed at how I felt no need to present or defend an identity so I guess I'm feeling a lot less separate than before.

Is there doubt or unclarity that in all these cases the ‘self’ is nothing other than a mental fabrication?

No doubt, but I can see 'selfing' still occurs and I hope I will always be able to laugh gently at that! As in this quote from earlier

The 'I' does not do anything it just thinks it does! Bless!

Meaning, how sweet and funny that the 'I' has always thought it did it all!

And finally:

Are there any doubts about seeing through the illusion of separate self?'

I don't think so, but I did expect it to feel more definite that this. As you said it's really very ordinary. No blinding flashes or eureka moments! I'm not sure I fully believe I have completely seen through but neither can I see what I may be hanging on to! Maybe it's just the habit of self doubt.
HB x

No, but I still feel separate most of the time. Although today was the first day of this straw bale building course, meeting 25-30 new people. I was amazed at how I felt no need to present or defend an identity so I guess I'm feeling a lot less separate than before.

Yes, you are a heap of atoms, other folk are a heap of the same kinds of atoms. In between you and them are the same kinds of atoms and we all breath the same kinds of atoms but there will still tend to be a sense of localisation around the more familiar location point that folk conventionally call 'you' for the purposes of getting conventionally by in a mannerly fashion. We go along with this of course, otherwise folk would think we were just totally effiing nuts.

So we don't have to feel as though we are occupying someone else's actual trousers at the same time as themselves. Instead it is more as you say with the submergence in the positive group example you give of the straw balers. When I show up for a biker meeting, as soon as myself or any other biker shows up, we feel like; 'we are the bikers' this non- separation this solidarity with other humans follows us to Motorway service stations where we arrive as 'the bikers', swill our tea as 'the bikers' and rev off without paying as 'the bikers' (OK that last bit does not happen) We have all had the experience in choirs too: I think it is why many of us sing in choirs really, we want to move towards this non-separation thing.

Try this on a bus or train carriage: Don't dwell on apparent superficial differences in other folk because those are just superficial. Call to mind that things will make them happy and things will make them sad and those will often be similar things for you too. They probably love their kids or dogs (or their mum loves them!) etc. etc. This is the big stuff that matters, the love stuff, the sense of solidarity with other flesh and blood. We have a lot in common. Remember too that they don't have a self either though most of them probably think they do, so we often feel a bit of compassion for that as it will often be wrecking their head. OK so that is what is meant by non separation. Non separation is Metta and sometimes this non separation is stronger than at other times. Sound familiar?

No doubt, but I can see 'selfing' still occurs and I hope I will always be able to laugh gently at that!

Yes, because of the Skandhas, selfing still arises even after seeing and no, it is unlikely that you will ALWAYS be able to laugh at it in the early days of this, sometimes you will get caught right up in it for brief periods before it falls away. However the insight we are looking for here is that one has seen through the delusion of self not that the habit has completely vanished for ever (as that comes much later!)
Mbx

Actually good old Suzuki makes abetter job of it than me!:

Shunryu Suzuki from a talk Attachment, Non Attachment in Zen Mind Beginner's Mind.
"Each existence depends on something else. Strictly speaking there are no separate individual existences. There are many names for one existence. Sometimes people put stress on oneness, but this is not our understanding. We do not emphasise any point in particular, even oneness. Oneness is valuable, but variety is wonderful. Ignoring variety, people emphasise the one absolute existence, but this is a one-sided understanding. In this understanding there is a gap between between variety and oneness. But variety and oneness are the same thing, so oneness should be appreciated in each existence. That is why we emphasise everyday life rather than some particular state of mind. We should find the reality in each moment, and in each phenomenon. This is a very important point."

Maybe it's just the habit of self doubt

But is what you call 'doubt' not just a thought Hannah?
Just be with your breathing again. Just look in Direct Experience and ask that.

Have you ever paused to briefly consider going to a a movie because the poster says something like; 'If you are going to see any movie this year, it must be this schlock-buster etc.'

But after perhaps just five or ten seconds of consideration because the cast was good, you have decided it is just not your kind of movie. But why would we go back to dwell in that initial pause again? Why would we stick there in questioning? Ruminating over the fact that we HAD given the thought; 'might I enjoy that movie?' five seconds of airtime? Why would we make THAT moment the focus of our lives? OK that thought happened but does it deserve being accorded any meaningful weight?

I am just giving this a bit of a spelling out as you will see more of this stuff coming up over the near future as habit plays itself out.

There are two previous posts from me above this one BTW
Mbx

That's all very helpful, settling into a deeper understanding. Self-doubt is just a passing thought!

Non separation is Metta and sometimes this non separation is stronger than at other times. Sound familiar?

Yes that's familiar, and so helpful to remember that when feeling non separation it is Metta, not a complicated thing to get my head round! It's only in the abstract that it feels complicated because of 'thinking' about the repercussions, and in the moment it's just easy and natural.

HB x

Hey, Hannah Brown you are looking real good!

We are nearly done here.

I will now just post some closing plenary questions:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?



2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.



3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.



4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?


5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? GIVE EXAMPLES from experience of the latter from recently. Do not be afraid to repeat yourself here or with any of the above. Just spell it all out as though for new eyes. Other experienced Guides will be checking over this thread at some point, perhaps even discussing it between themselves and it helps them a lot if all of these questions are addressed in full at this stage.

6) Anything to add?

Mbx

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No there never was a 'separate', 'self', 'me' or I anywhere

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion is that there has to be 'someone' in control, making things happen, making the right decisions. The idea that if I don't do it right, either it won't happen, I won't be loved, or some other disaster will occur. This 'self' then has to be protected, defended, presented in the right way in order to be accepted, approved of and ideally loved. It's because of identifying with thoughts, however negative and believing I am my thoughts.It started very young, when there was a fear of not being loved unless I behaved in a certain way. Then the fear of being 'found out' (mainly of not being good enough or capable enough) reinforced the sense of separateness, and thus the need to 'create' or believe in, an identity I could hide behind.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like a weight lifted off my back, like life is easier, I recently laughed at the idea (long held without questioning) that if I wear the right clothes people will think I'm thin! I saw how absurd this was, that I just am this shape, which is absolutely fine, and while I can enjoy wearing clothes I like I do not need to try and create responses in other peoples minds! It makes no difference to anything what thoughts about me other people have. We are all as we are, variety and oneness as Suzuki said. I feel much less insecure around others, do not need to make an impression. I find it easier, quicker, to drop a thought, or see through them, they just arise by themselves and do not thereby create my identity. I don't have to feel responsible ( and therefore vaguely guilty) for all the randomly negative thoughts I have, because there is no need to identify with them, any more than I need to appropriate the good or clever ideas or thoughts that show me in a good light. I feel there is less of a barrier between me and others so I can give fuller attention when that is required or appropriate.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I'm not entirely sure, it seemed to be a combination of things slowly gathering momentum. The advice to just relax and not try too hard, that it was really very simple and ordinary. Realising that form, feelings, perceptions,volitions and thoughts are really all there is! And all that's necessary. I think a significant shift happened in my understanding of this, and that was helped by reciting the Heart Sutra. Weirdly I like myself more now that I know I have no self! It's like 'what's not to like?'

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen?

No, things happen in deep dance (Ha! I typed dependence and it came out deep dance, I like that) upon conditions, some of which involve the skandhas, but there is no self making anything happen, or making decisions or having great ideas. I think there is still intention, in as much as there is volition, and Metta, but it's like a flow of intention rather than a willed or forced

6) Anything to add?

Maybe in the morning, right now I'm really tired

Just remembered something ekes for question two,
Unhelpful comparison has always been a mechanism for creating and reinforcing my illusion of a fixed and separate self, growing up in a competitive family, five girls close in age, I just developed a strong tendency to compare myself unfavourably and wish I was somehow different, as though I could not change. Of course all this massively loosened since discovering the Dharma, and I have 'believed' there is no self since coming across the teachings, but not deeply enough to really see it, till now, by really looking into direct experience and not finding the self anywhere.

now that I know I have no self! It's like 'what's not to like?'

I loved that gag! (chortle chortle!)

AND I will be revisiting it below too!

I think there is still intention, in as much as there is volition, and Metta, but it's like a flow of intention rather than a willed or forced

Mmm, I loved that last bit but I have wee concerns about the first bit of what you said. I know you were tired (and we are a bit less able in this department when we sink to basic animal tiredness) but I want to see a bit more assurance about intention/volition Hannah.

You are not necessarily going to like what I am about to say but that might mean there is still an element of the Self-View hiding in the background, but let's look at this as cherished notions sometimes just get in the way.

Is intention really anything more than thought?

Is volition really anything more than a cherished notion that there really is such a thing as 'Free Will'?

Sorry must go. Don't reply. I will be back to complete this later!
Mbx

By cherished notion I mean that despite folk believing that; 'things arise in dependence upon conditions' (Loved that 'deep dance' thing of yours too BTW!) they can still manage to miss that this indicates there is no 'free will'.

Perhaps a reason we still manage to cling onto the notion of 'free will' (ie that a self is still operating somewhere) is that sometimes folk can have the view that if this is NOT true then we would just start behaving badly and shrugging our shoulders about it: "It wasn't me who committed the murder your Honour, it was the Cosmos!"

But that is just not how people feel like behaving at all when they see through this delusion we are addressing here.

As we know from the Heart Sutra;
'Form is only emptiness' so that is of course the Mindful Awareness component (ie, that little furry doggie over there is just made up of atoms.)

But also, the next line is: 'Emptiness is only form' which is of course the heartful compassionate metta component (ie, Wow! Just look at what a sweet little form that emptiness is taking! It has got itself up into that darling little furry doggie form!)

Every sentient being is the same so isn't it all quite sweet really? So we don't feel like murdering any of it! Instead we feel more of a connection to all that lives and breathes. Things will make them happy things will make them sad.
Other people don't have a self either so; 'what's not to like?'!

Finally, although 'no free will' SOUNDS totally nuts. it has always been the case since you were born so there is no change here AND you end up behaving MORE responsibly after seeing through Self-View because it then becomes quite plain that compassion is the only show in town!

Yes, ok that sounds right, I am thinking about the Metta that gives rise to a long term sort of volitional flow of things, as in the positive habits we adopt that give a general flow to life, Bhantes universal evolution if you like, all life wishing to grow, that sort of thing. I can also see that when there is no separate self there is just Metta, that fear of 'going to the bad' if I don't keep practising, or keep in positive conditions, just vanishes. ( and looks ridiculous now, but I did have that fear when I decided to spend a year living alone after Buddhafield, and all the structure that provided in my life.) feeling connected to life and not separate means there is no need for 'free will'

I have just watched the YouTube film you sent a link to, and thought he put it very well, I had no problems or disagreements with what he said there, and will now watch a couple more

With love,
HB x

OK nice observation there but at the same time that reply was a bit conceptual Hannah (my fault really for going off on a conceptual ramble no doubt!)

However I now ask you; in direct experience can you find 'intention'?
Mbx