Tired of the person

[Nati]

Hi Vince,

happy Christmas to you - i hope you are enjoying.

Yesterday while sitting this came up: STOP TRYING. START TRUSTING.
This comes back to mind and is helpful whenever I feel full of effort and strain.

Thoughts arise here that this is your mother speaking ?

Could be the voice of my grandmother, who was a "fighter". My mother was interested in my spiritual adventures, even encouraging. But for herself she felt no aspirations, even though she obviously felt something missing.
...

To find out, do this; Like the looking at the back of your hand, pick something else to examine, and as you look at it, watch the thoughts. Notice how they label and categorize. Notice how it is almost as if you are talking to someone else and the thoughts take on a conversational form. What do you notice ?

Set out to do the exercise with a bit of grumbling resistance, thinking: oh well, just a little exercise, get done with it, no big thing. But it turned out to be so powerful! Started with looking at a candle (not lighted) and plunged right into a NOW Feeling. There wasn't a lot of thinking and labeling going on, more wondering about all the details that were seen and normally overlooked. Then took up another small object and it was the same. Was very touched by the Beingness of these two things. Could not understand how little i see in my habitual state. This brought tears on. How is it possible that this richness is overlooked nearly all the time? How close it is! It is right here.

After that there was some peaceful contemplating and then another realization came up. During the experiencing there was already a commenting voice reporting to you, building sentences and so on. And I remembered that this „reporting“ to somebody while experiencing something (seemingly special) has been going on since my teenage years. As my parents seemed to be not available I looked for other people to share about my life, in this case a teacher. So whenever I had an interesting experience it was accompanied by this fantasy of how i would tell him all about it later. Later it was my friends that i would tell everything. So these experiences were never really fresh, but „soiled“ from the start. Realizing this brings some feeling of shame and sadness. And acceptance of these feelings is also here, just letting them go through the body.

Investigate (in experiencing) if it takes the construction of a story in order for something to be remembered later.

No idea. I oscillate between yes and no. Some moments of ecstasy, like in lovemaking, are hardly remembered afterwards. Others seem to have their story running along experiencing. Peaceful states when i just sit and wonder and feel amazement are remembered only vaguely, maybe because there isn't anything happening.
I will keep on investigating.

I stumbled upon this in Elenas Blog:
Direct pointing vs Who am I Question

In Direct Pointing we hold seeker’s attention, focus very narrow - on one and only thing - that “I” does not exist. 
“Who AM I?" Inquiry implies that there is some "who" that exists. From the start of your inner inquiry, by formulating your questioning in this way you assume a basis, a default - there is "who" there, and I just need to find it. 
In Direct Pointing we are focusing on NOT FINDING. 
In “Who AM I?" Inquiry we are focusing on FINDING.
If you notice that the seeker is mixing and matching these two methods, while working with you - explain him the difference of these methods, and show him that mixing both only will give him either temporary fuzzy, blissy state, or his brain will start to “explode” from trying to solve this riddle.
Seems that i have done exactly this because with Mooji I used Who am I? stripping the I of all qualities until only awareness was left. And now the concept of awareness/consciousness is still hanging around. Also i recognize what she calls fuzzy, blissy state. There is a kind of loyalty to Mooji's teaching, because i trust him 100%. Maybe this is a veil that is not allowing me to see clearly. Open now to even drop that. I am here now, not in Satsang with Mooji.
What seems most important now is focussing on the present moment, like i did in the exercise. There was no awareness of awareness then, only awareness of candle.

Lighting candle for us now :))
Blessings and love
Renate

[Nati]

oh dear vince
what a happy-ing christmas
what a christmas happy-ning
forget about everything

river sun wind cormoran
i cannot find my self
not even gratitude remains
only laughter
and tears

and the odd thought
about the next crash
that's ok too

[vinceschubert]

Ah wonderfull. i mean Wonder Full ! & beautiful too.
Reading your last post, my heart grew and opened.

and the odd thought
about the next crash

i call them remnant thoughts. Thoughts that happen when the old pathways fire up because of some habituated trigger. But thoughts are just thoughts. When we recognize them for what they are they can be anywhere from useful/important to having the same meaning as the sound of the refrigerator. Sadly, of the 90,000 (supposed) thoughts we have each day, not only are most of them in the second category, but they are repeats that go round and round.

that's ok too

Yes, beautiful acceptance. We can't control it, so a welcome, willing acceptance ensures that there is no extra baggage added. Usually this also means that if what comes is unpleasant, that it doesn't last very long. It'a amazing how the stories we used to spin, cause that stuff to endure.

Peaceful states when i just sit and wonder and feel amazement are remembered only vaguely, maybe because there isn't anything happening.

Oh, there's lots happening. That peace is huge. The whole body resonates with it. Healing is happening big time. It's more that there is no story about it and what there is has nothing to stick to. Write another chapter to the story of Renate and give it some meaning or purpose and it will be remembered.

w is it possible that this richness is overlooked nearly all the time?

Oh, that is easy. How can you enjoy the scenery when you are busy being an author of the story of Renate ?

And I remembered that this „reporting“ to somebody while experiencing something

Yes, i have that too. (the memory of it) It's hard to smell the flowers while this is happening, aye ?

Blessings and love

Yes, we are bathed in this. We only need to allow the NOW, to see it.

love and love

vince

[Nati]

Hi dear Vince,

it was so good to receive your response, take it in and feel the deep connection.

There has been no crash this time, just a gentle thinning out. This stuff seems to come in waves.

Today i spent a lot of time with my two old and closest friends. It is a bit strange but i could not share what is happening here with them, even though both are "spiritually inclined". but i don't feel like talking about it to anybody (but you). it is still so fresh and new and precious.
But i shared by singing my new song and we ended up singing together like in the old times.

Coming back home I lay down and soon there was another wave. Also some pain with it but i didn't mind at all. Pain or joy, laughter or tears. I don't mind. And i do not understand anything at all and that feels fully ok.

This feels somehow like being in love. Even stronger. Seems i want to be with my "no-self" all the time. And i still can't believe it, that this is really happening. This is the only thing i ever longed for, oh dear...

i am very exhausted now. stop here for today.

love love love

Renate

[vinceschubert]

Hello Renate.

..and feel the deep connection.

Yes, beautiful fulfillment. That connection is with the 'All that IS' (which includes Renate). It's back to basics. The love that is the energy of the cosmos. The connecting fibres if you like. It is our birthright. What exists that every happy baby is experiencing. It is discovery in everything (because memory isn't useful here). It is the outside of you, touching the inside of you and knowing that it is the core of the world (all worlds). It is the sweetest nectar of all.
Soft, beautiful, flowing....

This stuff seems to come in waves.

Yes, definitely. As impermanence is a characteristic of all that exists (and here's a koan, and all that doesn't exist), to appreciate those waves as the ebb and flow of 'nature', brings an added depth to the joy of NOW.

but i don't feel like talking about it to anybody

Yes, words can't explain it. In my experience, most people, even those close to you, won't notice the immense change that is happening.

singing my new song

Have you put it on SoundCloud, for others to hear it ? Does it tell of the happenings of Renate ?

i do not understand anything at all and that feels fully ok.

Excellent. Yes, it is all Wonder and discovery, and no conclusions. WonderFull !

This feels somehow like being in love.

It is an expression of the love (energy) that you ARE. No subject or object. Just THIS.

i am very exhausted now.

A beautiful exhaustion. Lovely.

vince

[Nati]

yes yes yes

feeling like a newborn baby

thank you vince, best and only midwife in the world for me

still a lot going on, sometimes gentle, sometimes quite fierce

i will put that song out when i'm ready to face technical problems
want to share it with you

no more words here now

love

renate

[Nati]

Hi dear Vince,

Oh, there's lots happening. That peace is huge. The whole body resonates with it. Healing is happening big time. It's more that there is no story about it and what there is has nothing to stick to. Write another chapter to the story of Renate and give it some meaning or purpose and it will be remembered.

Yes, i feel that body resonating. Also looked at the body and thought "This is a body." Not as usual "My Body". A bit weird. Sometimes there is trembling and twitching going on, if i let it. I remember Mooji saying not to give too much attention or importance to this, it is just something that will pass through and vanish. It is interesting, though.
I wanted to ask you: Do you really mean this "Write another chapter to the story of Renate ...." or is it irony? if life is so fresh every moment, i don't need to collect memories, do i? i just can carry on living.
Mentioning Mooji, i am grateful to him because he triggered something in me. But all the same i am so happy that this is happening without him. So i do not depend on him or any background he brings with him. It is so pure. No religion, culture, teacher necessary. Just this guidance and looking and experiencing.
And i can see clearly that it is a beginning not an end. It's a challenge to integrate this (like today when i had to do some shopping) and there is more to come. WOW. Is ist true? Yes, it is true. Even in those moments when i can't take it in. It remains true.
Happy, happy no-me!!

love
Renate

[vinceschubert]

Hi Renate.

Do you really mean this "Write another chapter to the story of Renate ....

No not irony, and no i didn't mean for you to actually do it. Bad expression on my part. i meant that if you write another...

I remember Mooji saying not to give too much attention or importance to this, it is just something that will pass through and vanish.

Yes, all experiencing ends. (as does everything that starts)

It is interesting, though.

Yes, it's interesting in a couple of ways. There is the novelty of the sensations. There is the mystery of why it is happening. There's the mystery of how it happens in such discrete places on/in the body. There is the mystery of what, if anything is being achieved at a biological level.
...and there is whatever piqued your interest.
There is no mystery about, if it means anything. Because it is so directly experienced by the organism, it is easy for the mind (thoughts) to try to attribute meaning and purpose to it. To believe those thoughts is a mistake. They are simply doing what thoughts do. Creating a story. Categorizing. Labeling.

Mentioning Mooji,

Now you will 'know' what he points to, with a clarity. It will almost be like he is saying different things to before. He has nothing that is not available to you, now. (well, yes he does. He has years of living with this and integrating and deepening. This is still in front of you.)

Ok, let's see if we can find any remnants of identification..
Please answer the questions from your current experiencing and don't philosophise.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

love

vince

[Nati]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

The idea of a seperate entity seems somehow strange and quite ridiculous. How could anything like this exist at all? It is clear that nothing of that sort is here or ever was.

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

I'm not sure if i understand this question correctly. The illusion of a seperate self comes with believing my thoughts about something. It has to do with thinking and believing these thoughts until they seem to become a kind of energy. But in the end it is only thoughts. It can disappear spontaneously and always has, whenever i've been completely absorbed into something. Whenever the NOW is being lived. For instance while dancing, singing etc or in moments where the body is in danger. Then there is no space for this illusion. But when there is space for thoughts to take over, then the illusion creeps back in. Writing this there is some confusion why it doesn't creep in now. It must be because i have seen through the illusion, but i don't know how this came about.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I leave out the intense experiences and try to describe "normal life". It is as if a weight has been lifted off me. Relief that all this is over. With "all this" i mean the heaviness that was connected with the story of Renate. The conviction that i could never find happiness because of this story or my character. Also i feel less obligation towards other people, i feel more free to do what i like. I do not feel responsible any longer for other people's happiness. This has nothing to do with egoism but with trust in life. That everything and everybody is quite ok as they are. I feel carried by life and there's no need to think about of what i want to do, everything happens more or less by itself. There is more spontaneity, i experiment with new behaviour. I feel no need to be right or defend myself.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

I have no idea and i cannot point to a special moment. There have been several "openings" that were covered up again in the last weeks. But in the last days it just stayed more and more open and clear, or the cloudy thoughts were seen so quickly that they could not form any density to cover the seeing. And then the power of what was at work here was so strong.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Hmm, i still feel a bit wobbly at times, guess that is only natural. But i would be very relieved if we could stay in touch for some more days. I feel not quite ready yet for facebook.

[vinceschubert]

But i would be very relieved if we could stay in touch for some more days. I feel not quite ready yet for facebook.

No worries.
Your answers didn't reveal anything of concern here. ..except that you didn't answer question 5.
Have a go at it when you are inclined.

love

vince

[Nati]

Hi Vince,

i posted the answers to the questions seperately. worked on them yesterday evening, saved and wanted to finish later. But guess what happened a couple of hours later?
Yes, i was sucked in again. And quite strongly. Feeling seperate and desperate. The familiar suffering. Also some aggression. No need to describe that in detail.
Now asking myself what brought that about. Some ideas come up:

1. i do not want to let you go. Scared of what happens when this dialogue comes to an end, when you are no longer there to turn to.

2. My emotional instability believed in (the ace in the slieve of the mind, as Mooji would call it). I wrote above: "The conviction that i could never find [lasting] happiness because of this story or my character." My weakest spot. it is always been like that. I change from one extreme state into another as if a switch is operated. And in one state i cannot imagine that another state is even possible. (but now it is not that bad, because i am able to write this and i know i will get out of this again) Maybe it is even something i just have have to live with, like an illness, that is annoying but not curable

3. (This one doesn't seem to be that important but i mention it anyway.)Yesterday there were some feelings of guilt because i told a friend who sometimes emails me "spiritual stuff" with angels and so on, that i do not appreciate this, like she does. (i should have done that right away, when this started) I tried to be as kind as possible in saying this. As she did not respond to the mail, my story was, that i might have hurt her. And i didn't really mind if i had hurt her. That I found a bit strange and unfamiliar.

4. Something is not right with my SEEING because to me it still is more feeling than seeing. (And feeling is more unstable)

It is early Sunday morning, frosty, the light just coming on. I will take my bike for a ride. Wish i had a dog.

love
Renate

[Nati]

riddle

tell me the name of the dragon
that seems to be so terrible
that seems to be so powerful
no army can conquer it
no spells can drive it away
only your laughter
makes it disappear
like mist in the morning sun

[Nati]

No worries.
Your answers didn't reveal anything of concern here. ..except that you didn't answer question 5.
Have a go at it when you are inclined.

Thank you, Vince. That is good to know.
You can ignore my "sucked in again" posting if you wish. In the midst of suffering laughter burst out. Very strange!
I will do question 5 later.
love
Renate

[vinceschubert]

riddle

tell me the name of the dragon
that seems to be so terrible
that seems to be so powerful
no army can conquer it
no spells can drive it away
only your laughter
makes it disappear
like mist in the morning sun

This is easy. We have seen the name (labels).
To name it, neuters it. Sucks away any power that it did have.
Turns the fire breathing dragon into a harmless gekko (that both entertains and eats mosquitoes)
Renate, many primitive myths have some basis in real life.
What do think the name of our dragon is ?

love

vince
i am on the road today. Will get to the rest of your post this later today or tonight. - hopefully with question 5 done.

v

[Nati]

Hi Vince,

i was not really being serious with this "riddle". For me the dragon is: suffering from the illusion of being a seperate self.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Now i know why i left this one out. I do not want to write what I imagine is "right": that all these are illusory concepts. So i start with the easy one: control. That i have definitely not. Haha. Me in control. Never ever. Choice. There is a sense of choice felt, but more for things that are not so important. Like what do i have for breakfast. Or maybe it is not choice but inclination?
Free will. I don't like to let go of the idea of free will because it seems to be a part of human dignity. But whose will could that be? If there is no "I", there cannot be free will. Same for intention and decision. All these seem to be functions of the conditioning that the body/mind has undergone. But still i do not feel comfortable with this because it seems that then we become a kind of machine. The activities would be quite predictable if the conditioning was known and could be analysed. But humans beings can be very unpredictable. There must be more to it. Maybe LIFE comes in and its tendency to evolve. The nature of LIFE makes things happen and these things can be spontaneous and unpredictable. How does it work? I don't know. But it works best if i don't stand in the way.
I'm not responsible for anything, because it is just the functioning of conditioning and life. And who would be this "I" anyway? (Hard one to accept. Such a different perspective.) I still feel responsible for not hurting other people, trying to control these impulses when they come. But that again is part of my conditioning.
But i also know the feeling of complete innocence when i am free of self, so it does make sense.

Examples? Well, i would have given up my spiritual search long ago if i had free will, choice or control. I have always wanted to lead a normal life - but no way!!
The wish to be in control has lost much of its power. It is more that now I am curious of what will happen. And what makes things happen? They just happen, all by themselves.

To finish I would like to share how fantastic my brain is and how fast new pathways are established. This morning i practiced to mount my bicycle from the other side, not the one i am used to. At first it seemed quite impossible, like learning to ride it again from start. I was afraid of falling. But after only a few attempts it became easier and easier. And it felt good to practice just for the fun of it.

thank you and love
have a wonderful, wonder-full time
Renate