Looking for a final push

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
How are you doing? Are you OK?
Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Hello,

Yeah fine sorry I didn't come back, I kept meaning to but didn't know what to say lol. One thing I noticed the other day, and I can't really remember it very well, was that I saw how the 'I' is constructed, with thought, mostly images, and when I say images it's more like videos. And these image thoughts and word thoughts congregate and tell a story (how many times I've heard about this 'I-story' and not known really what it meant). Anyway, in that moment I felt free of it, and then after I wondered how it took so long to see this, which I have been obsessing about for over a year, and I understood how the teachers couldn't say much about it (although to a seeker it is so frustrating), but I see now the simplicity of it.

After seeing that though, the thoughts seemed too dense and heavy to see through. I get how people can say 'I feel like a separate self', because despite there being no such feeling, the thoughts are so heavy that it seems like there is an actual experience of being a separate self and the burdens that come with that. But I care less about the thoughts running wild because I know that they're not working against my 'spiritual progress'.

Thanks for checking up xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Great to hear from you!

One thing I noticed the other day, and I can't really remember it very well, was that I saw how the 'I' is constructed, with thought, mostly images, and when I say images it's more like videos. And these image thoughts and word thoughts congregate and tell a story (how many times I've heard about this 'I-story' and not known really what it meant). Anyway, in that moment I felt free of it, and then after I wondered how it took so long to see this, which I have been obsessing about for over a year, and I understood how the teachers couldn't say much about it (although to a seeker it is so frustrating), but I see now the simplicity of it.

Lovely!

After seeing that though, the thoughts seemed too dense and heavy to see through. I get how people can say 'I feel like a separate self', because despite there being no such feeling, the thoughts are so heavy that it seems like there is an actual experience of being a separate self and the burdens that come with that.

Can you see thoughts coming and going like everything that arises? This feeling of ‘I’ – does that come and go too? Now – what ‘knows’ that that happens? What notices these objects rising? That that notices – does that come and go?

Also can you see the thoughts telling stories about thoughts being dense and heavy and separate? What expects what arises to be different from what is?

But I care less about the thoughts running wild because I know that they're not working against my 'spiritual progress'.

Progress? Where can you go? Where is the you to progress? LOL What else is there but this?
So then Daniel – any more questions – is there anything else you want to look at? Anything not clear?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Can you see thoughts coming and going like everything that arises? This feeling of ‘I’ – does that come and go too? Now – what ‘knows’ that that happens? What notices these objects rising? That that notices – does that come and go?

Mostly it's hard to see the thoughts coming and going, there are too many and they come too quickly, it's like they don't even register consciously.

I can't say that there is a feeling of I, although there are feelings that only seem to make sense if there is an I. Like if someone insults me, there are feelings like anger, sadness etc. Why would they appear? I suppose it's only thought that links the insult with the feelings? But that just seems like a cop out.

As for what notices- I would say that there is nothing that notices without that which is noticed. If all experience was removed, there would be no experiencer left behind.

Also can you see the thoughts telling stories about thoughts being dense and heavy and separate? What expects what arises to be different from what is?

Yeah I can see that. Most expectations have gone, for now.

Progress? Where can you go? Where is the you to progress? LOL What else is there but this?

Exactly! That's what I mean.

So then Daniel – any more questions – is there anything else you want to look at? Anything not clear?

There are things that need to be looked at more, but nothing we haven't gone over already.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

I can't say that there is a feeling of I, although there are feelings that only seem to make sense if there is an I. Like if someone insults me, there are feelings like anger, sadness etc.

But is there a ‘you’ who brings the emotion? Or is there just emotion rising? Is there a ‘you’ who is angry? Or just the emotion arising?
Can you see the story attached to anger arising when insults are heard?

Why would they appear? I suppose it's only thought that links the insult with the feelings? But that just seems like a cop out.

OK – have a look at that and check – you might have to wait till a response is forthcoming! Take any feeling and have a look – see if story has attached to that historically, explanatory, future based, comparison based etc.
Do thoughts think? What says there is a link between thoughts? Would that be thought?
How much of response is habitual? What say that all response should be gone just because…blah, blah?

There are things that need to be looked at more, but nothing we haven't gone over already.

Sure there is nothing you want to go over? I like to be thorough! Don't mind repeating anything - especially if you are not sure. OK.
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

But is there a ‘you’ who brings the emotion? Or is there just emotion rising? Is there a ‘you’ who is angry? Or just the emotion arising?

Just the emotion and lots of thoughts.

Can you see the story attached to anger arising when insults are heard?

Ohhhh yes.

OK – have a look at that and check – you might have to wait till a response is forthcoming! Take any feeling and have a look – see if story has attached to that historically, explanatory, future based, comparison based etc.

Yeah loads of thoughts came, in all of those categories you wrote.

How much of response is habitual?

I don't know but I'd guess a lot.

What say that all response should be gone just because…blah, blah?

Thoughts.

Sure there is nothing you want to go over? I like to be thorough! Don't mind repeating anything - especially if you are not sure. OK.

Well, whatever happens, happens. Any opinion on it is thoughts, and that's about it. I don't know what else there is to see.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

How much of response is habitual?

I don't know but I'd guess a lot.

Have a little look at how much habitual response there is! Comparison thought too is a good one! Thought can be a tricky little beggar! LOL.
So then Daniel – shall we look at some final questions?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

So then Daniel – shall we look at some final questions?

Yeah, sure.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Take your time, there is no rush - Im away for this weekend anyway so wont be home till Monday. Answer as fully as needed. I will look at the answers and see if there is anything I have missed. Then I will ask other guides to do the same. They may come back with some further questions. OK.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?

Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, those are just words that get repeated in thoughts. And when questioned, all that can be found is cycle of self-reference.
"What is 'I'?"
"I am 'I'."
"But what is that 'I' which you are?"
"Well, it's "me".'
And around it goes.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Well, I guess it starts from the same time that language is acquired, the time when the words I, You, Me etc are understood. Then thought could use those words, but it's not like thought has an agenda, it's an automatic process, that's just what thought does. So thoughts that revolve around the 'I' come describing experience, and looking at what is happening without thought doesn't happen, so the only way of describing what's happening is via thoughts.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I don't feel any different at all, because there is nothing different happening. There is nothing to believe in thoughts, so there is nothing from which the belief is removed.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Looking at what's happening in the realm of sense perceptions, no matter what thought is saying about it. Imagining what experience would be like if thought stopped existing.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

I don't think I've seen this clearly enough, saying no just doesn't feel right. It still feels like there is control, there is still guilt about doing/not doing, confusion about 'what to do'. But at the same time I really don't know what else there is to be seen regarding this.

6) Anything to add?

There is some worry about the lack of clarity here, I know I'm comparing myself to others, but everyone seems to have so much clarity and I'm worried that I'm just faking it and taking on comforting beliefs.
xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Imagining what experience would be like if thought stopped existing.

Imagination may well be what is being experienced but what is imagined - is that experienced outside of thought that is?

I don't think I've seen this clearly enough, saying no just doesn't feel right. It still feels like there is control, there is still guilt about doing/not doing, confusion about 'what to do'. But at the same time I really don't know what else there is to be seen regarding this.

Ok. Thanks for saying. Shall we start with control?
Guilt - is that emotion with a story? Can you see it? Is this story attached to something in particular? Like responsibility?
As for doing - does doing happen without thought? How much of doing happens without thought? Is there a particular time that doing is thought to be controlled?

There is some worry about the lack of clarity here, I know I'm comparing myself to others, but everyone seems to have so much clarity and I'm worried that I'm just faking it and taking on comforting beliefs.

Can you see the worry clearly? Does it consist of a story like this can't be it? How much of this doubt is expectation and comparison? When comparison and expectation isn't felt, what then? When were you ever separate from what is? How?
Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

Imagination may well be what is being experienced but what is imagined - is that experienced outside of thought that is?

No, in this case it just helps to see what is actually happening vs what is assumed in thought.

Guilt - is that emotion with a story? Can you see it? Is this story attached to something in particular? Like responsibility?

Yeah it's all story, but I have difficulty in seeing how things are supposed to happen without story, it seems so fundamental. There is the story that I am seeking this 'awakening' and everything that goes along with that. If that's removed, it's like there is nothing. No matter what the story is it seems that it can't be removed, because the story is what happened, is happening, and will happen. As long as there are things happening, there is a story. The story only exists as the content of thoughts, but it's like I need to keep reminding myself of that, and that's where the doubt comes in, if I need to keep reminding myself, then it's just more beliefs and I always need to be on guard otherwise I'll believe the story again. Just doesn't seem genuine.

As for doing - does doing happen without thought? How much of doing happens without thought? Is there a particular time that doing is thought to be controlled?

Doing does definitely happen without thought, but again, this is seen so infrequently that it's insignificant. When I'm not in some kind of flow activity like walking somewhere, making dinner etc and there are gaps of time where there is nothing to do, there are thoughts about what to do with this time, and in these moments the control seems strongest, but I don't know what it feels like or anything. It just seems like 'I' have to make a decision and there is anxiety, boredom and other things, it's just a big mess really. And even if I take a look and see the thoughts and feelings, it's like 'Oh yeah, that's right, there is no control, there are just thoughts about control and what to do, ok, what now?' I'm expecting the universe to take over and move me to do something, but everything feels so effortful. And the thoughts 'There is no control' and 'I am in control' are both just thoughts, why believe one over the other, which comes back to the lack of clarity, there is no evidence of no control except the thought about it. This doesn't feel right. It's like control is assumed in thought, then no control in assumed in thought, and there needs to be a place of no assumption, where neither control nor no control is assumed.

Can you see the worry clearly? Does it consist of a story like this can't be it? How much of this doubt is expectation and comparison? When comparison and expectation isn't felt, what then? When were you ever separate from what is? How?

I can see the worrisome thoughts yes, 'This can't be it', 'What if I'm wrong', 'This is just belief', 'Everyone else has such clarity/happiness'. Yeah there is expectation of clarity and comparison with others. It seems like all of this lives and dies with the thoughts about it, thoughts like 'There is no me', 'There is no control', these are just thoughts like all the others, it's like, they're pointers, and what's pointed to needs to be seen fully to the point where the thoughts are no longer necessary. I also notice these thoughts coming up to justify things like inaction/apathy.

I may have repeated myself many times so thanks for having the patience to read and make sense of all that.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel
Yeah it's all story, but I have difficulty in seeing how things are supposed to happen without story, it seems so fundamental.

For this to happen there has to be control. Do you see this? So is this what still needs to be seen?

No matter what the story is it seems that it can't be removed, because the story is what happened, is happening, and will happen. As long as there are things happening, there is a story. The story only exists as the content of thoughts, but it's like I need to keep reminding myself of that, and that's where the doubt comes in, if I need to keep reminding myself, then it's just more beliefs and I always need to be on guard otherwise I'll believe the story again. Just doesn't seem genuine.

OK so whilst this story is being experienced is there something there that knows it's astory? Can you see the story during or after? It is being seen though isn't it? In which case :)
Who reminds? Who is there to do that? What needs reminding? Are you waiting for thoughts to get this? THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN. Thoughts deal in objects. Thought is itself an object that arises in. It cannot look at no-thing.

Doing does definitely happen without thought, but again, this is seen so infrequently that it's insignificant.

Not insignificant except to thought! Did you expect thought to be quiet? Or that feelings would never appeared be doubting? Onion peeling Daniel - one layer at a time. Looking!

When I'm not in some kind of flow activity like walking somewhere, making dinner etc and there are gaps of time where there is nothing to do, there are thoughts about what to do with this time, and in these moments the control seems strongest, but I don't know what it feels like or anything. It just seems like 'I' have to make a decision and there is anxiety, boredom and other things, it's just a big mess really.

Ok so the next time this happens, just watch or listen or feel. Take note of sensations, the sensations through your skin, the sound of the wind, the sounds through the window. Pay attention to what is happening right NOW and if that is boredom have a right good look at it. Just BE with it. If forgetting happens, no worries, just pick up when remembering happens.

Yeah there is expectation of clarity and comparison with others.

OK. And what happens to that expectation when you see that it is just a thought? Is it followed by more thoughts? Or something else? Is it resisted?
What happens if you just sit with this story and it is allowed? What if like everything else, it is just part of what is and isn't resisted?

I may have repeated myself many times so thanks for having the patience to read and make sense of all that.

No patience needed. Hugs Sarah xxx

[Raweir]

For this to happen there has to be control. Do you see this? So is this what still needs to be seen?

You mean control when/if the seeing happens?

OK so whilst this story is being experienced is there something there that knows it's astory? Can you see the story during or after? It is being seen though isn't it? In which case :)

I know it's a story in the sense that it's not happening now, just thoughts relaying the past and predicting the future.

Who reminds? Who is there to do that? What needs reminding? Are you waiting for thoughts to get this? THIS WILL NOT HAPPEN. Thoughts deal in objects. Thought is itself an object that arises in. It cannot look at no-thing.

Maybe I am waiting for thoughts to get it, I don't really know what 'it' is though.

Not insignificant except to thought! Did you expect thought to be quiet? Or that feelings would never appeared be doubting? Onion peeling Daniel - one layer at a time. Looking!

It's just that it seems like thoughts should be believed, and not believing them is scary. Like if doubting thoughts come up, then it seems to be true that there is some reason for the doubt. It seems like thoughts are the only way of knowing what's true, even though that sounds flawed, because thought can say anything. Too much emphasis being placed on thought.

Ok so the next time this happens, just watch or listen or feel. Take note of sensations, the sensations through your skin, the sound of the wind, the sounds through the window. Pay attention to what is happening right NOW and if that is boredom have a right good look at it. Just BE with it. If forgetting happens, no worries, just pick up when remembering happens.

I'll do this, but there are already thoughts demanding a result from this.

OK. And what happens to that expectation when you see that it is just a thought? Is it followed by more thoughts? Or something else? Is it resisted?

It seems scary to dismiss the expectation as just a thought, thought doesn't think it's finished and there is more to come and if I don't have expectations I won't make it.

What happens if you just sit with this story and it is allowed? What if like everything else, it is just part of what is and isn't resisted?

Again the fear. It's kind of like a fear of laziness/complacency, like, if I just accept what is I won't get anywhere. That's just want comes up.

xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Daniel

Yeah it's all story, but I have difficulty in seeing how things are supposed to happen without story, it seems so fundamental.

Well – who or what is this a problem for?

Maybe I am waiting for thoughts to get it, I don't really know what 'it' is though.

What is waiting? Good question – what is ‘it’? Is it a future based thought? A wanting something other than this thought? What else is there BUT this?

It's just that it seems like thoughts should be believed, and not believing them is scary. Like if doubting thoughts come up, then it seems to be true that there is some reason for the doubt. It seems like thoughts are the only way of knowing what's true, even though that sounds flawed, because thought can say anything. Too much emphasis being placed on thought.

Exactly! Well seen! What was and is being experienced here is that looking doesn’t stop. As I said – onion peeling – one layer at a time – looking, looking and more looking. What wants thoughts to be listened to? What wants to respond to them? What says that thoughts speak the truth and labels fear when not? Is thought content real? Go back to basics – breathing, sound, sensations, look at thoughts as if they are reflections crossing a mirror. Thoughts try and protect that’s all – they are not bad or evil. Thank them and look.
Did I send you the fear exercise?

I'll do this, but there are already thoughts demanding a result from this.

Again – well seen – thoughts wanting something other than this!

It seems scary to dismiss the expectation as just a thought, thought doesn't think it's finished and there is more to come and if I don't have expectations I won't make it.

Can you see the pull out and away from what is? Outside of thought what is wrong with right now?

Again the fear. It's kind of like a fear of laziness/complacency, like, if I just accept what is I won't get anywhere. That's just want comes up.

OK – you have seen that doing doesn’t stop when there is no ‘I’ doing. Now re look at this sentence!
Hugs Sarah xxx