The Gate

Hi Tao,

sense of me is an undercurrent of continuous defending, planning responses and some talking in the head with other people.

Thanks
Jitendra

Hi jiten thanks for your reply, just noticed it. I need to read over our whole discussion to see where we got to then we will progress from there. Will reply soon.

Tao

ok

Hi Tao,

I love writing so just writing few things which are going on in mind especially from last two days.

I am reading the archives. read http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... f=5&t=4924

One thing which has happened is that now there is increased willingness to see every experience as sensations and thoughts. suddenly there is a washout of all previous spiritual discussion related to ACIM and I am that which I used to heavily engaged in. somehow they seem totally uninteresting and to some extent feel like lower level of engagements. Mainly because 100% work was at thought level in questioning and answering to others based on understanding. It did not have direct looking in it.

but I still don't find this to be the most important single focus of me (Direct looking). Its not 10/10 for me in-terms of willingness it seems.

I just wish this willingness to focus only on investigating "me" becomes the only sole focus. somehow it is still not very appealing to investigate "me" on which behalf I am feeling, reacting, deciding, choosing, defending.....

my experience of me is still a undercurrent of tightness specially in chest area with shallow breathing.....that shrinking "due to always being on defense" is being noticed more often.

Thanks
Jiten

Hi jiten thanks for the post.

Glad that things are seen more as passing thoughts/sensations now. It is good to stick with that. No thought or sensation is any threat whatsoever. It is no problem that you are not 10/10 but you may wish to enquire into what it is you don't want to let go of, or the 'roadblocks' that thought throws in the way when it comes to enquiry.

I would also recommend a daily practise of Qigong, in order to gradually release the energetic contraction in the upper spine that may be leading to the tight chest, shallow breathing and the shrinking/fear traits.

Its seem our focus is in the identification of there being a do-er, and the anxious feelings of pending work.

Some questions to enquire into:

Isn't it true that all there is, is what appears NOW?
Are you in control of anything that appears now?
Is there anything you can do to change what appears?
Are you the thinker of thoughts?

Tao

Thanks Tao,

you may wish to enquire into what it is you don't want to let go of, or the 'roadblocks' that thought throws in the way when it comes to enquiry.

I am not truly able to identify it so far. I will observe more and get back. It seems attentions rarely gets free to drop from thought level to other senses like hearing, smell, sensations, taste. most of the time there is an undercurrent of defense/resistance which does not let me relax to drop into other senses like hearing, smell, sensations, taste.

I will also try Qigong. Thanks for suggestion.

Isn't it true that all there is, is what appears NOW?

I am not sure.

from one perspective, everything in manifested world (i.e. moon, tiger, movie stars) does not appear (to me) Now. So it is not true.

But at the same time, "everything that is, is not appearing Now" is also a thought appearing NOW.
and "This is a true statement"...also appears as thought.
"what does not appear NOW, does not mean does not exist".... is also a thought.
What does not appear NOW, but is remembered to exist (my car in parking lot) also appears as thought and images Now.
What is not remembered to exist and what does not appear now visually.....does it exist???(I feel like a stupid here).

Are you in control of anything that appears now?

control of anything that appears now? (laptop on/off, moving my hands)

again not very sure. Not very sure because I don't have control over thoughts.
1) whatever happens without thinking about it like body movement...that anyway I am not doing.
2) whatever is consciously done/chosen..is first thought and then done...but thought I don't choose...have no control over them...so cant truly say I have control.
3) But attempt to control life is always there...from office work to child to plan for future..

Is there anything you can do to change what appears?

I think once decided I can do many things to change...but the decision/desire or wanting to change is not in my control.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

No. I am not the thinker. have no control over thoughts. they appear randomly. I observed this specifically yesterday.

Thanks
Jiten

Great looking Jiten

I am not truly able to identify it so far. I will observe more and get back. It seems attentions rarely gets free to drop from thought level to other senses like hearing, smell, sensations, taste. most of the time there is an undercurrent of defense/resistance which does not let me relax to drop into other senses like hearing, smell, sensations, taste.

It is likely that it will come up in this dialogue at some point so don't worry at this stage.

from one perspective, everything in manifested world (i.e. moon, tiger, movie stars) does not appear (to me) Now. So it is not true.

They did appear, else you wouldn't have written them. There is no-thing that isn't appearing now.

at the same time, "everything that is, is not appearing Now" is also a thought appearing NOW.
and "This is a true statement"...also appears as thought.

Yes!

"what does not appear NOW, does not mean does not exist".... is also a thought.
What does not appear NOW, but is remembered to exist (my car in parking lot) also appears as thought and images Now.
What is not remembered to exist and what does not appear now visually.....does it exist???(I feel like a stupid here).

Does any 'thing' exist, except as a thought/appearance happening now? Can you find any 'thing'?

Here is an exercise to try.

Look at a table, look at the components, imagine the table taken apart, where is the table? Is there really such a thing?

When you look at the table, are you seeing a table, or are you seeing colour/shape/light, along with a thought label 'table'?

Close your eyes and imagine a chair. Visulize its detail, the colour, the material, the shape.
Why did you see this particular chair, out of all the different types of chair there are?
Is the chair you visualised a real thing, or a story?

Are you in control of anything that appears now?

control of anything that appears now? (laptop on/off, moving my hands)

again not very sure. Not very sure because I don't have control over thoughts.
1) whatever happens without thinking about it like body movement...that anyway I am not doing.
2) whatever is consciously done/chosen..is first thought and then done...but thought I don't choose...have no control over them...so cant truly say I have control.
3) But attempt to control life is always there...from office work to child to plan for future..

Is there anything you can do to change what appears?

I think once decided I can do many things to change...but the decision/desire or wanting to change is not in my control

.

We will come back to this after the exercise.

Are you the thinker of thoughts?

No. I am not the thinker. have no control over thoughts. they appear randomly. I observed this specifically yesterday.

Great glad that this is seen. Will await your answers on the exercise.

Tao

Hi Tao,

I am finding it very difficult to see anything without labeling it. By default mind labels it. So far not able to see anything as just color/shape/light. will keep trying. do you have any suggestion on this?.

Thanks
Jitendra

Hi jiten, thought does label by default, good that this is seen.

Try this. Sit quietly, close your eyes to begin with. Send attention to your eyes, notice any flickering or movement at back of the eyeballs/optic nerves, take some time to soften this, bring any flickering to a complete rest. See if you can soften and relax all around the eyes. Allow the eyes to unfocus. Notice how thinking tends to make the eyes flicker. Try to stay with completely soft unfocused eyes. Take however long you need with this part.

Now open your eyes. Do not focus on any object, but use your peripheral vision, keeping the eyes soft. Don't move attention outwardly, allow all of the colour/light to come to you as it were. Sit as the knowing/being of experience, nothing else.

Notice how the eyes trying to focus and thought trying to label are the same thing. What is there without this happening?

On a side note.
Imagine the table taken apart. Where is the table? Was it ever anything more than a thought label?

Let me know how you get on.

Tao

Imagine the table taken apart

You mean here that table is dis-assembled and parts moved out from the location..right?

Thanks
Jitendra

Yes exactly

Isn't it true that all there is, is what appears NOW?
There is no-thing that isn't appearing now.

confusing..

1) there does not exist anything separate in perception unless thought applies label. Only in this process a thing appears and it will always appear now because thought is appearing now.

2) without thought no separate thing is perceived (but is anything perceived at all without thought??)

so how is this useful?...If I remember now my car in parking lot, because of thought, it is remembered(not appear) as a thing(Car)..in other case when I see it and thought labels it as car, then it appears(not remembered) as a thing.

So without thought....presence or absence of car is same(???)(can this be understood or only experience will help?)

question ;

does anything (not a thing...oneness...what is seen) exists at all without thought being applied? if something exists...is there any way to know it without applying thought?

Does any 'thing' exist, except as a thought/appearance happening now? Can you find any 'thing'?

logically 'No'....but acceptance is not there yet. feels like I am trying to convince myself of something very silly or irrelevant concept..not useful (sorry...not trying to appear arrogant or uninterested here)

Look at a table, look at the components, imagine the table taken apart, where is the table? Is there really such a thing? When you look at the table, are you seeing a table, or are you seeing colour/shape/light, along with a thought label 'table'?

This I could not successfully do. mind says only when parts are assembled then you have a table...else it is not there.....

Close your eyes and imagine a chair. Visulize its detail, the colour, the material, the shape.
Why did you see this particular chair, out of all the different types of chair there are?

I saw my personal chair which i like. may be because i like it and use it extensively...

Is the chair you visualised a real thing, or a story?

It is not a real thing. It is a story. but it does reminds of a real chair i use.

Notice how the eyes trying to focus and thought trying to label are the same thing. What is there without this happening?

This is really profound. i will practice more. had a decent experience with the exercise.

Imagine the table taken apart. Where is the table? Was it ever anything more than a thought label?

not clear.....here is my question for clarification

if i touch water......that experience of touch..without labeling it---and touching a table...without labeling it....is it same?? any way to even arrive at conclusion that it is same without thought :-(.

Thanks
Jiten

Hi Jiten,

Firstly, let's substitute the word perception, for the word experience. Perception implies some-'thing' is perceived, by some other thing. Experience is just THIS.

1) there does not exist anything separate in perception unless thought applies label. Only in this process a thing appears and it will always appear now because thought is appearing now.

Yes exactly. And is thought separate from experience? Is anything at all separate from experience? Or does thought just make it appear that way?

2) without thought no separate thing is perceived (but is anything perceived at all without thought??)

No separate thing can be found right? Whether thought is there or not, you are aware. If thought is not there, you are aware of thoughtless THIS. If thought is there, you are aware of the imagery that thought is.

o

how is this useful?...If I remember now my car in parking lot, because of thought, it is remembered(not appear) as a thing(Car)..in other case when I see it and thought labels it as car, then it appears(not remembered) as a thing.

What is a memory? Is it:
A) an accurate reflection of real events that have taken place
Or
B) A thought that is happening now that says it is a reflection of a past?

Please answer again from DE

What if thought says you parked around the corner,
Then is says I have just walked around the corner,
Then it says, that blob of colour/light is my car, and it is where I left it,
or, it says, oh its not there, must be around the next corner

So without thought....presence or absence of car is same(???)(can this be understood or only experience will help?)

There is no car, it is a thought story

question ;

does anything (not a thing...oneness...what is seen) exists at all without thought being applied? if something exists...is there any way to know it without applying thought?

Are you aware right now?
Check for the answer.
What do you notice before thought comes in?

Does any 'thing' exist, except as a thought/appearance happening now? Can you find any 'thing'?

logically'No'....but acceptance is not there yet. feels like I am trying to convince myself of something very silly or irrelevant concept..not useful (sorry...not trying to appear arrogant or uninterested here)

Please don't adopt it as a concept.
In DE, do you find anything? What tells you it is a 'thing'?

It is not a real thing. It is a story. but it does reminds of a real chair i use.

Isn't 'real chair I use' just another thought story?

This is really profound. i will practice more. had a decent experience with the exercise.

Yes it is, I agree.

if i touch water......that experience of touch..without labeling it---and touching a table...without labeling it....is it same?? any way to even arrive at conclusion that it is same without thought :-(.

When you touch water, there is a sensation and a thought that says, 'ah water'
When you touch a table there is a sensation, and a thought that says, 'ah table'

Is anything else found?
Try it as an experiment.


Tao

Hi Tao,

For my ease I am splitting the topics in two three different thread. this will help me to focus and practice. Hope this is fine.

Experience is just THIS.

And is thought separate from experience?

No, thought is not separate from experience. However some thoughts which feel important have emotional response too. Some thoughts are without emotional reaction. and some thoughts generate reaction of resistance/contraction. So experience is different.

Also sometime when "lost in thoughts" happen, it is noticed only afterwards not when it happens.

Is anything at all separate from experience?

nothing is separate from experience but

1) difference in experiences is noticed and
2) a preference is seen towards certain experience and.
3) tendency to avoid certain experience is also seen.....I think this is where experiencer "me" is felt more strongly.

Thanks
Jitendra

Hi Tao,

Can you also please give some guidance about how to get into looking at direct experience. I think most of the practice and answering requires me to get into direct experience looking mode.

ideally after reading question I should go into looking (D.E) mode and then I should observe and conclude/verify/notice from there....but thought quickly jumps in and starts answering the questions.

Thanks
Jiten