Requesting a guide!

[Sarah7]

Some really good seeing and noticing there Larry! Ill post again when you have had chance to look at the other question!
OK.
Lots of Love Sarah xxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah,

Second – please check and see if DE is being used to get rid of unwanted emotions or sensations that thought wants to avoid at all costs. That is not what we do here – The mirror doesn't want to get rid of some reflections and keep others.

Sarah, I wouldn't know how to use DE to do get rid of unwanted emotions or sensations. I do have a problem with something else. I've read or heard that everybody has done or said something that was so stupid or hurtful that they can't believe they said or did it. I've also said or done things that were so stupid I can't believe I said or did it. I'll be watching a movie or show on TV and something will remind me of something from the past and I'll start cringing and just start ripping myself to shreds over it. This has been going on for years; so one day I just got tired of it. I then learned to see it coming, and that seemed to stop it. Is this what you meant by "getting rid of unwanted emotions or sensations." I haven't had a chance to use DE on this. Perhaps there is something else you want me to do?
Looking forward to your reply!

Thank You for the guidance -- Larryxxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry

ah, I wouldn't know how to use DE to do get rid of unwanted emotions or sensations. I do have a problem with something else. I've read or heard that everybody has done or said something that was so stupid or hurtful that they can't believe they said or did it. I've also said or done things that were so stupid I can't believe I said or did it. I'll be watching a movie or show on TV and something will remind me of something from the past and I'll start cringing and just start ripping myself to shreds over it.

Is this a problem or a thought? We have spoken about no control over anything – emotions, thoughts etc. Is this a good example of that?

This has been going on for years; so one day I just got tired of it. I then learned to see it coming, and that seemed to stop it. Is this what you meant by "getting rid of unwanted emotions or sensations." I haven't had a chance to use DE on this.

Is this ‘you’ that did this then? Or did it just happen and thoughts laid claim to it?

What I meant by doing DE is that sometimes clients see a connection between emotions going or moving away and thoughts jump on in and say ‘Oh look – doing DE gets rid of things I don’t want to feel’. So the next time anger turns up – out come the techniques for getting rid of it. Does that make sense? Just wanted you to look and see if that was what was happening.

Anything else Larry that you want us to look at? Anything at all? Are you clear now? Shall we look at some final questions?
Lots of Love Sarah xxx

[lmellen]

I wouldn't know how to use DE to do get rid of unwanted emotions or sensations. I do have a problem with something else. I've read or heard that everybody has done or said something that was so stupid or hurtful that they can't believe they said or did it. I've also said or done things that were so stupid I can't believe I said or did it. I'll be watching a movie or show on TV and something will remind me of something from the past and I'll start cringing and just start ripping myself to shreds over it.

Is this a problem or a thought? We have spoken about no control over anything – emotions, thoughts etc. Is this a good example of that?

No, it's just thought, memory.

This has been going on for years; so one day I just got tired of it. I then learned to see it coming, and that seemed to stop it. Is this what you meant by "getting rid of unwanted emotions or sensations." I haven't had a chance to use DE on this.

Is this ‘you’ that did this then? Or did it just happen and thoughts laid claim to it?

There is no me doing it, the seeing does it. The thoughts lay claim to it. I was curios as to whether this was repression.

So the next time anger turns up – out come the techniques for getting rid of it. Does that make sense? Just wanted you to look and see if that was what was happening.

There are various places in the the gate crashers book and various places in the posts were guides talk about getting behind anger, anxiety, guilt etc. When DE is used to see no self the anxiety melts away. Would you rather I not do this?

Anything else Larry that you want us to look at? Anything at all? Are you clear now? Shall we look at some final questions?

The only thing that seems out of whack is that I spend too much time lost in thought acting as if there was a self.
When there is intensity, and seeing is clear, this doesn't happen. This does bother me, which is more thought!

Thank you for the reply -- Larryxxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah,

If you want to start the questions that's OK. I just want to make sure that the replies are from DE and not thought.

Thank you -- Larryxxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry

There are various places in the the gate crashers book and various places in the posts were guides talk about getting behind anger, anxiety, guilt etc. When DE is used to see no self the anxiety melts away.

Are you clear that there is no you doing anything? Or does that need further looking? If you are clear who get behind what?

DE just means looking and or noticing. It is not a technique to get rid of anything. It is simply noticing what is. So the question is ‘is anger, anxiety or guilt wanted to be got rid of’? The next question is where is the ‘you’ that wants rid? If there isn’t one then what wants rid – or expects these emotions to melt away? Does the mirror prefer one set of reflections to another? Or does the mirror have no preferences either way of what arises on its surface?

The only thing that seems out of whack is that I spend too much time lost in thought acting as if there was a self. When there is intensity, and seeing is clear, this doesn't happen. This does bother me, which is more thought!

Is this expectation and comparison again? What compares? What expects? What spends too much time? WHO IS BOTHERED! You know this Larry! That is all story! LOOK. See that thoughts say I spend too much time!
Again expecting things to be different! Who or what wants things other than they are? LOOK! Without thought is there a problem anywhere? BUT that doesn’t mean that thoughts are the enemy – they do what they do – they are no different from anything else that arises – look everywhere – everything is doing what it does – no problem anywhere – except in thought. Who or what is bothered by thought? Hunt that down!
Find that reference point – find the one who wants rid, who wants thoughts to do something different, who doesn’t want what is.
Lots of Love Sarah xxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah,

Is this expectation and comparison again? What compares? What expects? What spends too much time? WHO IS BOTHERED! You know this Larry! That is all story! LOOK. See that thoughts say I spend too much time!
Again expecting things to be different! Who or what wants things other than they are? LOOK! Without thought is there a problem anywhere? BUT that doesn't mean that thoughts are the enemy – they do what they do – they are no different from anything else that arises – look everywhere – everything is doing what it does – no problem anywhere – except in thought. Who or what is bothered by thought? Hunt that down!
Find that reference point – find the one who wants rid, who wants thoughts to do something different, who doesn’t want what is.

OK, here's what seems to be going on:
I do DE; I'm looking outside. I seem to be able to observe/feel the body.(Almost feels like I'm outside of it) I look for a self and there isn't one! Nothing to see, feel, smell, hear, taste; nothing.
Now we go inside. I can watch the machinations of thought until you're purple in the face. I spent the whole of dinner watching thought comment on other thoughts; thought just chattering all over the place! Now the "I" is just a thought, period, just a thought! BUT, the "I" seems to have a life of it's own! It seems that if I can see through thought, "I" haven't done so with the "I". I could answer "WHO IS BOTHERED!" with "I AM"; but that would just be
more thought.
What is this "I" that is bothered? I spent a couple of years trying to get rid of it; then the Gate Crashers said you can't. You have to see through it. I am getting lost. You state:

Who or what is bothered by thought? Hunt that down!.

and

Find that reference point – find the one who wants rid, who wants thoughts to do something different, who doesn't want what is.

I can sit here and type in "I" am the reference point, but if "I" is just a thought and thought can't think, then what the hell is the reference point??? "I" is just a thought, but not seen through??? Just thinking???

Confused but grateful for the guidance -- Larryxxx

[lmellen]

Sarah, let me look at this for a day or so. Will keep in touch daily -- Thanks -- Larryxxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry

I do DE; I'm looking outside. I seem to be able to observe/feel the body.(Almost feels like I'm outside of it) I look for a self and there isn't one!

Are you looking ‘outside’? Isnt it all here? How are thoughts on top of thoughts any different from experience on top of experience? Seeing happens, hearing happens, smelling happens………thoughts happen. Simple. Full stop.

Now we go inside. I can watch the machinations of thought until you're purple in the face. I spent the whole of dinner watching thought comment on other thoughts; thought just chattering all over the place! Now the "I" is just a thought, period, just a thought! BUT, the "I" seems to have a life of it's own! It seems that if I can see through thought, "I" haven't done so with the "I". I could answer "WHO IS BOTHERED!" with "I AM"; but that would just be more thought.

Is this actually watching thoughts pass by like a cloud across the sky – or following content?
Can you elaborate on ‘the "I" seems to have a life of it's own’. Can you say how this is experienced?
Do you actually ‘see’ that it is just thought?

I spent a couple of years trying to get rid of it; then the Gate Crashers said you can't. You have to see through it.

Did it work – trying to get rid of thoughts?
Ive said – verify everything yourself! Never take mine or anyone else’s word for anything! Look yourself.

I am getting lost.

What is getting lost Larry? Is that another story starting up? Really look and see if there IS a wanting of thoughts to disappear or quieten down.

Is there resistance and frustration? Can you see where it is aimed or what it is about? Let rip on some paper, really splurge all that frustration – go away for a bit – then come back, re read and see what resonates. We can look together if you want?

I can sit here and type in "I" am the reference point, but if "I" is just a thought and thought can't think, then what the hell is the reference point??? "I" is just a thought, but not seen through??? Just thinking???

Its just a thought – isn’t it? Can you see it? Are you waiting for thoughts to understand this Larry?
Big Hug Larry – Lots of Love Sarah xxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah,

Is this actually watching thoughts pass by like a cloud across the sky – or following content

Following content

Do you actually ‘see’ that it is just thought?

OK, what does this actually mean? I spent the whole day watching thought. In the gym while on a elliptical I kept thinking: "I'm exercising on a elliptical, I'm not exercising on a elliptical," over and over again. One's true, one is not.
But they are both thoughts!!! Followed by: "I am exercising. no one is exercising." One's true, one is not. But they are both thoughts!!! I kept this up all day in various ways, and I see the thought I or me as a thought.

Can you elaborate on ‘the "I" seems to have a life of it's own’. Can you say how this is experienced?

This has more to do with being in a daydream, thinking about everything but what you are actually doing.
When this is happening the "I" seems to be very real.

I spent a couple of years trying to get rid of it; then the Gate Crashers said you can't. You have to see through it.

Did it work – trying to get rid of thoughts?
I've said – verify everything yourself! Never take mine or anyone else’s word for anything! Look yourself..

This was Krishnamurti's "Impossible Question." Had nothing to do with holding thought. What was needed was intense, unbroken asking/looking.

I am getting lost.

What is getting lost Larry? Is that another story starting up? Really look and see if there IS a wanting of thoughts to disappear or quieten down.

No, awhile back I was wondering who the maker of effort was. It's the ego, thought, me, the self.
I then realized that there was nothing "I" could do to get myself enlightened. The only choice I found was to watch the mind/thought. I can watch thought masquerading as self, but it doesn't seem as if I've seen that there is no self.
So I'm lost, now what??

Is there resistance and frustration? Can you see where it is aimed or what it is about? Let rip on some paper, really splurge all that frustration – go away for a bit – then come back, re read and see what resonates. We can look together if you want?

Actually I'm not frustrated, and I don't see any resistance. It just seems that if you see self as thought, something is supposed to let go, or free up, or whatever. This might be comparison?? Stories from other posts.

I can sit here and type in "I" am the reference point, but if "I" is just a thought and thought can't think, then what the hell is the reference point??? "I" is just a thought, but not seen through??? Just thinking???

Sarah, let me play with this for awhile, it kind of bothers me. I know the answer is "just thinking", but that is also thinking; need to see it.

Thank you again Sarah -- Larryxxx

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry
Do you want a few days? There is no rush here. Take what time you need.

OK, what does this actually mean?

It means watching thought not content – aware of thinking happening but not engaged in content. Does that make sense?

I spent the whole day watching thought. In the gym while on a elliptical I kept thinking: "I'm exercising on a elliptical, I'm not exercising on a elliptical," over and over again. One's true, one is not.
But they are both thoughts!!! Followed by: "I am exercising. no one is exercising." One's true, one is not. But they are both thoughts!!! I kept this up all day in various ways, and I see the thought I or me as a thought.

Go back to what you directly experience. Are you experiencing thought? Then thought is real – but content isn’t. Are you experiencing sensation? Then sensation is real. Again watch for thoughts that want to make it complicated!

I then realized that there was nothing "I" could do to get myself enlightened. The only choice I found was to watch the mind/thought. I can watch thought masquerading as self, but it doesn't seem as if I've seen that there is no self. So I'm lost, now what??

Actually I'm not frustrated, and I don't see any resistance. It just seems that if you see self as thought, something is supposed to let go, or free up, or whatever. This might be comparison?? Stories from other posts.

Its because you are waiting for something to happen! It already is! Can the sun look at itself? This is all about wanting things to be different from what they are – can you see this Jerry? This is the crux! You are using the tool of illusion to see the illusion! LOL.

Sarah, let me play with this for awhile, it kind of bothers me. I know the answer is "just thinking", but that is also thinking; need to see it.

See above – watch like clouds – see the thinking happen. That’s all that’s needed. There is no you thinking – there is just thinking. There is no you to get it, or do it – or anything – as you have already seen!
Bug hugs Larry and a ton of Love S xxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah,

Sarah wrote:
"This is all about wanting things to be different from what they are – can you see this Larry?"

Sarah, just curious, need clarification; if I ask what does "emptiness is form, form is emptiness" mean, is that seeking, wanting?

Thanks Sarah -- Larry

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry

Sarah, just curious, need clarification; if I ask what does "emptiness is form, form is emptiness" mean, is that seeking, wanting?

You know this! If it is seeking and wanting - what is it being done by? Are thoughts wanting to understand again?
'Need'? Thought? Thoughts? Story??????
Don't forget the rest of the questions!
S xxx

[lmellen]

Hi Sarah,

It means watching thought not content – aware of thinking happening but not engaged in content. Does that make sense?

Sure, I understand what you are saying. Sometimes that happens, most times I’m caught up in the thinking, daydreaming, still as if there was an I, me.

This is all about wanting things to be different from what they are – can you see this Larry?

Yes, I realize that life, what is, exists only in the present. Wanting or seeking is a product of thought or a reaction against discontent in the present, caused by thought.
But at any retreat or get-together of some kind things come up. People do talk about deeper seeing. I’m not actively trying to accomplish anything else right now, just seeing clearly.

I can sit here and type in "I" am the reference point, but if "I" is just a thought and thought can't think, then what the hell is the reference point??? "

See above – watch like clouds – see the thinking happen. That’s all that’s needed. There is no you thinking – there is just thinking. There is no you to get it, or do it – or anything – as you have already seen!

Yes, I can find no self to call a reference point, just thought or thinking.

Thank you for being my guide! -- Larry

[Sarah7]

Hi Larry

Sure, I understand what you are saying. Sometimes that happens, most times I’m caught up in the thinking, daydreaming, still as if there was an I, me.

What is still caught up with ‘I’? See that it is just thinking happening. Can ‘you’ actually stop identifying? Try it! All that is required is to see and/or notice it when remembering happens – BE with what is – sensation – hearing, feeling, seeing etc. See thoughts trying to build story again – 'most times Im…..'. This is simply what is.

Yes, I realize that life, what is, exists only in the present. Wanting or seeking is a product of thought or a reaction against discontent in the present, caused by thought.
But at any retreat or get-together of some kind things come up. People do talk about deeper seeing. I’m not actively trying to accomplish anything else right now, just seeing clearly.

FULL STOP Larry! Some people say……. FULL STOP! But ……. FULL STOP! Im not trying to accomplish anything but….. FULL STOP! LOL!!!!! Every time you see concept trying to come back in – SMILE or LAUGH!!!!! Coz it really is very funny! Thoughts are slippery little buggers! :)

Yes, I can find no self to call a reference point, just thought or thinking.

So sit and watch thoughts roll across your consciousness and have a damn good laugh!!!!!
Big hugs Larry. Sarah xxx