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[EmptySet00]

When the body has a response (like breathing), there is no real thought of breathing, but when the breath is controlled, there is something that controls it, and there is memory of that (controlling breath) thought.

In my experience, there is a distinction between processes that go on completely unconsciously (heartbeat, sleeping, breath if I'm not consciously following or manipulating it) and those that happen "voluntarily", which includes deliberately following or manipulating the breath. I can be conscious of an impulse-to-act or a decision-being-made that are not discursive thoughts. Is this what you're referring to?

I am nothing other than these thoughts and feelings.

Are you the thoughts and feelings?

Ownership is not "John", but "John" is still here.

What is "John"?

I don't feel a sense of freedom. There is no sense of relief. No increased calmness.
I am less prone to anger and not as easily frustrated. A few friends have noticed I seem less "edgy".

This is 100% about a change of perspective. Emotional changes may happen during this process or as a result of it, but the basic question is- are these emotions happening to a self? Same with thoughts.

There is still that void apparently inherent in most humans. Looking for something else - whatever it is.

Seeing no-self doesn't necessarily mean the end of seeking. It's the end of "being a seeker", which can take some of the pressure off. It helps to be as clear as possible about what, exactly, it is that you're seeking.

ES

[matumba]

Hi ES,

Is this what you're referring to?

I believe we are on the same page. You said it much better than I.

Are you the thoughts and feelings? What is "John"?

There are thoughts and feelings entering awareness… and “I” am one of these thoughts. While "John" is the identifier given this body/mind organism for communication.

This is 100% about a change of perspective. Emotional changes may happen during this process or as a result of it, but the basic question is- are these emotions happening to a self? Same with thoughts.

Yes, I reread my post and it sounded like a real downer and not really what I intended. The (emotional) ups and downs are mitigated as they are really just seen and not identified with. In my initial post I stated there was a need to take things less personally – in that sense, mission accomplished! Nothing can be taken personally.
Additionally the names that are given to feelings give rise to feelings associated with those names. And now I just realized I am talking about “labeling” and the video I watched early on has been given real traction.

Seeing no-self doesn't necessarily mean the end of seeking. It's the end of "being a seeker", which can take some of the pressure off. It helps to be as clear as possible about what, exactly, it is that you're seeking.

Yes, the companion question “I” have these days is who/what is seeking what? Why the urge to seek? That is the “incomplete” feeling I refer to. Frankly, “I” don’t know what it is that is sought.
This process has been surprisingly difficult (for “me”) so far, but really quite simple. You were on target earlier, when you said it would become increasingly obvious. The habit of constant inquiry is being instilled as a sort of chain reaction to looking for “me” and not finding “me”.
Thanks,
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Just checking in.
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Getting concerned about you. Is everything OK?
I continue to look, hopefully not getting off on any tangents and focus has been more to the labeling tendency and more accurately the significance of the label. Feelings are increasingly realized as just that, then the label of good/bad/indifferent gets slapped on them. What has caused this feeling to be "bad" and this one "good"? - I had a bout of pain yesterday and was able to look better than in the past. Physically uncomfortable lent that "bad" label and memories bolstered that. I didn't feel like the pain was owned, just that it was there (and it was uncomfortable to say the least haha).
Anyway, looking forward to more of your guidance and confirmation that you are OK.
John

[matumba]

Hi ES,
Still waiting for reply. Get ting a bit more concerned. Will wait til tomorrow and then contact admin to see if you are OK.
John

[matumba]

Checking again.

[Canfora]

Hi John. It seems ES stopped guiding. Do you want to continue with me?
If yes, can you please tell me what makes you believe there is an I, a John in reality? What would this I be?

Sandra

[matumba]

Hi Sandra,
Thanks for taking over.
From a few posts back:

Are you the thoughts and feelings? What is "John"?

There are thoughts and feelings entering awareness… and “I” am one of these thoughts. While "John" is the identifier given this body/mind organism for communication.

and Sandra said

can you please tell me what makes you believe there is an I, a John in reality? What would this I be?

I've spent the last week observing - ebb and flow of life or whatever... What/who is observing? don't know. Don't know what makes one experience/feeling "good" and another "bad" or even "unpleasant". Really don't know much.
This sums up current situation well:

Yes, the companion question “I” have these days is who/what is seeking what? Why the urge to seek? That is the “incomplete” feeling I refer to. Frankly, “I” don’t know what it is that is sought.

Thanks for taking over,
John

[Canfora]

Hi John, I'm happy to talk with you about this.

“I” am one of these thoughts

Yes, I is a thought... and it only exists in thoughts, like the words John, Sandra, red, identifier, body, mind, orange,... these words are useful for communication but they are only pointers.

If you look to what is here, what is this I? Where is this I?

Is it the body, the thoughts, the observer, the sense of being John?

What does this word "I" point to right now?

Don't think about what/where you think the I is. Look for it. Can you see an I? Where?

Don't know what makes one experience/feeling "good" and another "bad" or even "unpleasant".

When looking to the experience happens (instead of thinking about what is going on) - is the experience still good, bad, unpleasant?
What can you see as the origin of all this labeling?

Really don't know much.

Wonderful!

who/what is seeking what? Why the urge to seek? That is the “incomplete” feeling I refer to.

Can you describe the seeking? And the incomplete feeling? If you look at them, what do you see happening?

John, I think you already know that the purpose of these questions is making you look to your experience, instead of thinking about the answers. I look forward to read what you find :)

[matumba]

Hi Sandra, thanks for taking the time to chat with me,

If you look to what is here, what is this I? Where is this I?
Is it the body, the thoughts, the observer, the sense of being John?
What does this word "I" point to right now?
Don't think about what/where you think the I is. Look for it. Can you see an I? Where?

No, no “I” can be found when looking. When referred to, “I” is the conglomerate of body, thoughts, observer, sense of identity – but it cannot be seen. Habitually referred to as “I” this conglomerate has a familiar feeling. Who/what does this feeling belong to? Unknown, but referred to as “I”.

When looking to the experience happens (instead of thinking about what is going on) - is the experience still good, bad, unpleasant?

For most things, no - no specific good/bad category. For some things – physical pain specifically is unpleasant and gets labeled as bad.

Can you describe the seeking? And the incomplete feeling? If you look at them, what do you see happening?

Don’t really mean “seeking” – just the void that is (apparently) inherent in the human condition. It is just a feeling, not really a “looking for something else” type incompleteness. It doesn’t yield to words very well, it is a feeling that doesn’t seem to want acceptance/resolution.

John, I think you already know that the purpose of these questions is making you look to your experience, instead of thinking about the answers. I look forward to read what you find :)

Yes, there is a tendency to overthink. “I” seem to get caught up in what is it that is experiencing? They are all just experiences and then mind gets involved and judges/labels them. There is nothing that can be done about it and no one to do anything about it anyway. It all just happens – what is it that is experiencing all this life stuff – I used to think it was me, but it’s obviously not. Despite the habitual thought (of me) – a thought cannot experience, so what is it? It is not even “my” experience, just an experience. But evidently the feelings are real – at least to who/what ever is experiencing haha.
Looking forward to your reply,
John

[Canfora]

Hi John, those are nice, clear answers, thank you!

Don’t really mean “seeking” – just the void that is (apparently) inherent in the human condition. It is just a feeling, not really a “looking for something else” type incompleteness. It doesn’t yield to words very well, it is a feeling that doesn’t seem to want acceptance/resolution.

I think I understand what you're saying. If you look to this feeling, this incompleteness, could this happen as a habit, a usual way of reacting to what is going on, a tendency? If this feeling is welcomed and looked at, instead of resisted, does the perception of this "incompleteness" change? Instead of being labeled as "incompleteness", can this experience be labeled as "complete" - because there is nothing else happening in reality but THIS?

“I” seem to get caught up in what is it that is experiencing? They are all just experiences and then mind gets involved and judges/labels them. There is nothing that can be done about it and no one to do anything about it anyway. It all just happens – what is it that is experiencing all this life stuff – I used to think it was me, but it’s obviously not. Despite the habitual thought (of me) – a thought cannot experience, so what is it? It is not even “my” experience, just an experience. But evidently the feelings are real – at least to who/what ever is experiencing haha.

Is this questioning coming from curiosity or is this need to know "what is" in the way of seeing "what is"?
Is seeking still going on? In your introduction you said: "There have been moments of clarity, some peace, all the typical buzzwords, but nothing lasting –and those ‘realizations’ fade when scrutinized – by thought." Are you still waiting for something "lasting" to happen? What should be different than it is?

[matumba]

Hi Sandra,
Good suggestions here,

I think I understand what you're saying. If you look to this feeling, this incompleteness, could this happen as a habit, a usual way of reacting to what is going on, a tendency? If this feeling is welcomed and looked at, instead of resisted, does the perception of this "incompleteness" change? Instead of being labeled as "incompleteness", can this experience be labeled as "complete" - because there is nothing else happening in reality but THIS?

It will take some time to digest, but it does seem to be habitual. I will reply tomorrow in more detail.

Is this questioning coming from curiosity or is this need to know "what is" in the way of seeing "what is"?
Is seeking still going on? In your introduction you said: "There have been moments of clarity, some peace, all the typical buzzwords, but nothing lasting –and those ‘realizations’ fade when scrutinized – by thought." Are you still waiting for something "lasting" to happen? What should be different than it is?

This struck a chord and is something that may have sneaked by my diligent watch :) This seeking (or waiting) does seem to be causing blurred vision. "I" have trouble focusing on just experience during "regular business hours", so attention isn't really at 100% til later in the evening. I will give a good look and try not to analyze. Again will reply tomorrow in detail. I must say something seemingly rings true here.
Thank You,
John

[matumba]

Hi Sandra,
Thanks for the suggestions! Here are findings after looking last night and this morning.

could this happen as a habit, a usual way of reacting to what is going on, a tendency?

OK, I was looking and it is becoming increasingly clear that the feeling is just an old friend that has bored its way into “my” existence. It hasn’t stopped, nor is it really expected to (but to be truly honesty “I” expect it will – another expectation giving rise to frustration and anger)

does the perception of this "incompleteness" change?

It seems there is quite a bit of resistance - this old head really wants to hang on to “me”. There is really some desire to keep “me” in the picture and “I” am waiting for something else to happen… some old ingrained thought of how it should be after getting it. That is apparently the incomplete feeling referred to earlier.

Is this questioning coming from curiosity or is this need to know "what is" in the way of seeing "what is"?

Why would seeking occur if there wasn’t an expectation of finding something else? Is it just a feeling labeled as “seeking”? There is nothing wrong with the feeling – why this resistance to just letting it be? These are just rhetorical questions, but feel free to address if necessary.
This morning I was looking during my morning routine and had one of the previously mentioned moments of clarity, everything seemed to fall into place. Then “I” wanted to hang on to it so much that “I” appeared in full force. This guy keeps coming back even though he can’t be found in reality – that “I” habit is tougher than smoking :)
I would like to thank you for pointing out where to look. There is a different feeling today.
John

[Canfora]

Hi John,

This guy keeps coming back even though he can’t be found in reality – that “I” habit is tougher than smoking :)

Are the expectations and the experience of frustration and anger reinforcing this identification with the I?

Is this identification still caused by the belief that there is a you, a thinker of thoughts and a feel-er of emotions? Or can you see that the identification is just what is happening - that it has no owner, no I causing it?

What is the identification with an I keeping you from seeing? This moment, maybe? This amazing experience in front of the eyes, always available to the senses?

When looking happens, can you see the difference between what is happening and what isn't happening?

Are the frustration and anger happening because of something that is experienced in reality or because of something that is experienced in thoughts, in the story of you? The same with expectations. Are they part of the story?

[matumba]

Hi Sandra,
First answers and at the end a quick summary:

Are the expectations and the experience of frustration and anger reinforcing this identification with the I?

I honestly don’t believe that is the case – those feelings of frustration and anger are getting less personal and just looking actually seems to lessen the identification with I.

Are the frustration and anger happening because of something that is experienced in reality or because of something that is experienced in thoughts, in the story of you? The same with expectations. Are they part of the story?

Both are in the story, and increasingly being seen as such (hopefully).

Is this identification still caused by the belief that there is a you, a thinker of thoughts and a feel-er of emotions? Or can you see that the identification is just what is happening - that it has no owner, no I causing it?

Identification is just happening – though “I” cannot see it all the time. It seems the habitual I sticks in there whenever I just am not really looking and fall back into identity with this automaton. So, when I look, I can see identification just happening. When I am distracted from looking, then “I” comes roaring back.

What is the identification with an I keeping you from seeing? This moment, maybe? This amazing experience in front of the eyes, always available to the senses?

Exactly – it is always available, but not always seen – again it is apparently habit.

When looking happens, can you see the difference between what is happening and what isn't happening?

That is an excellent question and possibly ties together these thoughts. When I actually get in the looking zone, everything is happening or everything isn’t happening, it just is. However, it is temporary or something, I fall out of just looking and get back to identity.

I think you already know that the purpose of these questions is making you look to your experience, instead of thinking about the answer

So the general feeling “I” have is a strong habit of giving life to the thought of “I”. There is a state of confusion that arises because I have been around so long and can see acting like an automaton when I look, but when not looking, the identity comes back – is this habit? Should “I” be able to look all the time? Is that what it takes to see through this illusion? Since looking (or at least awareness of looking) isn’t obvious (or in the forefront of consciousness) all the time, is that something that should be focused on? It seems to take concentration to look – “I” have to carve out some time to be more aware of looking. If concentration is just happening, how can “I” look when concentration is elsewhere? So confusion is happening.

There is a concern that deep down “I” want/expect to see this existence for what it is so badly, that “I” am talking myself into seeing what I’ve read about on this site and similar – when its not actually seen. How is it known? How can “I” qualify it?

Thanks for guiding me through this,
John