Skeptical but Open

[vinceschubert]

Morning Pete.

It's been more challenging to converse the last day or so. Things in 'my' head seem to be processing differently and it's hard to identify exactly what to say. It's taking me longer to respond.

Yes, major realignments happening.
The story of self (ego) is useful for communication. Put it on like a raincoat when it is needed. Realizing that it is not you, need not interfere with what needs to get done on a mundane level.

It could be true but it is difficult to find a way to test. Are there any exercises you could suggest?

Yes, partly the difficulty is because thoughts happen at lightning speed, and they insist on labelling and categorizing.
Try the exercise with hearing again, this time while listening to some Beethoven or Bach (and use headphones if you have them).
Once the music 'takes over' both Pete and the sound become just listening. Well, hearing is more accurate, but even that is just a label pointing to THIS.

Based on this experience it seems that subject - object duality is completely a by-product of the mind.

Absolutely. Can you grok the implications of this ? There is no (actual) separation. Just as the wave is the ocean, you are ALL that exists, and YOU are all that exists, and you are all that EXISTS (and all that doesn't exist) and only mind (perception) says otherwise.
Is Petes' body any different to the (apparently) external sound ? Previously those things were believed to be external to Pete. Now you can see how they are happening in you, but what about this organism called Pete. Is it any different ?

This is So big - gotta stop here and let the implications flow...

love and gratitude (for what this guiding is doing for vince)

vince

[fuzz1961]

Greetings,

It could be true but it is difficult to find a way to test. Are there any exercises you could suggest?

Yes, partly the difficulty is because thoughts happen at lightning speed, and they insist on labelling and categorizing.
Try the exercise with hearing again, this time while listening to some Beethoven or Bach (and use headphones if you have them).
Once the music 'takes over' both Pete and the sound become just listening. Well, hearing is more accurate, but even that is just a label pointing to THIS.

Listening has a connotation of thought associated with the sound. On the other hand, hearing seems to be what happens when sound occurs and there is no active associated thought. What is the word/symbol to capture hearing/listening that occurs within the body (this is not regarding pain or itching or those type of events)? Once a word is found is the experience 'tainted'?
What is the space where objects are seen but no stories exist; where the sound is recognized but remains free of thought and associated stories? What is the space that 'sees' the thoughts but allows them to 'be'? As my wife would say, 'it's all just part of the mystery'.
While walking today it occurred to me (at least the thought of me) that what i'm seeking is...difficult to put into words. It's like what you have described, the place where sensory input occurs/is captured but before any thought exists. The spot in each and every moment of....what? Be-ing? Is-ing? What is it that exists in each of those moments? Does truth (whatever that means) live in that space? Upon re-reading this doesn't really seem to capture what i'm trying to convey. Wish i was better at metaphor :)

Sure are a lot of thoughts happening here.

Recognizing thoughts and the idea of self for what they are, i feel pulled to censor this rant and delete it. However, as you can see, i didn't. Want to know why? Because i recognize them for what they are and even though they are what the are, 'Life' still will continue to happen.

Only now...through different eyes.

Oh yea, any excuse to put on the headphones and listen to classical music is welcome here!

Can you grok the implications of this ?

Yes. I'm not sure how to restate this without using the description already used. This is the sensation/experience I had two weeks ago today but was unable to communicate to susan.

It still feels as if there is more. I am drawn to the space that exists in this moment. If time could be completely stopped, what is there? My 'walk around the park' answer is that is where 'Life' dwells. And that if we can SEE that then all the other stuff will fall into place. To the me that is the story of Pete, that is where everything lives as one and is the heart of non-duality.

Look forward to hearing back from 'the squiggles that are associated with Vince'

Goodnight

[fuzz1961]

Howdy -

i wanted to address a comment in yesterday's post.

Another point is i watched/saw it happen. Hard to describe but it was similar to that of a spectator. i could have stepped in the story but the view would have changed to that of participant. This way of 'seeing' has been happening more regularly over the past week or so. The sensation of being of the story rather than embedded in the story is very freeing. i don't feel so tied into the outcome. Now to finally answer the last part of the question.

I shared this or a similar comment to Susan. Please note that i recognize that the i watching the unfolding events is also nothing more than another story. Recognize the metaphor thoughts are being recognized as separate from a self. Similar to a viewer watching a movie. He may get caught up in the movie but ultimately the film is an illusion.

Bowing

[fuzz1961]

Another question please -

Does the recognition of the illusion of thought/self make them any less relevant?

[vinceschubert]

Evening Pete.

What is the word/symbol to capture hearing/listening that occurs within the body

Hmm, none that i can think of. But that's not surprising, as language, which is evolutionary, has developed on the basis of a Self being real. That and other elements of the illusion means a very distorted view of what is Real. Weird how we can believe a man in the sky with a white beard is responsible for all of the good in the world, but we can't accept the consequences of climate change. ...anyway, language is simply missing words to describe that which is not part of common experience.

Once a word is found is the experience 'tainted'?

You tell me. Access the wisdom that is now available from recognizing that which is Real. Just trust and allow what arises.

As my wife would say, 'it's all just part of the mystery'.

Excellent. If you consider that all that is Real is current experiencing, and everything else is story, then a good story is that everything, including current experiencing arises from the great mystery. So when mind seeks to do its' thing of labelling and categorizing and explaining everything, there is great freedom in the surrender that is the welcome acceptance of what is, by the great mystery story.

Please note that i recognize that the i watching the unfolding events is also nothing more than another story. Recognize the metaphor thoughts are being recognized as separate from a self. Similar to a viewer watching a movie. He may get caught up in the movie but ultimately the film is an illusion.

Well said. Beautifully expressed.
Pete, let's visit the cleanup questions again.
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

love & gratitude

vince

[fuzz1961]

Hi!

Amazing be-ing today!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Nope, never was and (still with the awareness of impermanence) never will be.

2) "Describe your experience of the illusion of separate self, how it arises/disappears. Is that process always the same, or does it vary, and if so, how?"

Hmmm....the experience of the story of pete regarding the illusion of a separate self. That pretty much sums it up right there. It was/is the SEEing of self as story. Sometimes the recognition of a particular story happens in the moment of the experience and sometimes the recognition occurs later. Please don't ask what is SEEing because its seems that adding a see-er is once again a return to story.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Spacious

3b)What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

Note, this dialogue began more than a few days ago. i'm answering for the past few days. The past few days have brought more consistency and shorter times to the recognition of story. Also, while there is the recognition of story there is also the acceptance of the story as just that. To clarify, being aware that an object is a story does not imply that the story is bad or needs to be eliminated. Instead it is just 'is' or 'life' or whatever label you want to use. Santa didn't disappear after being seen as a belief he just became a story of a different type.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

There is no one thing or bit that provided the 'push'. Each iteration of exercise and question/response had a cumulative effect. There was a big aha moment two weeks ago that produced an incredible sensation of oneness and being. However after a few days thought stories had analyzed it to the point that the sensation itself had become another story. (the story that is Vince) used the term 'story' that resonated with my sense of understanding and it also helped.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life?

Sure, the story that is Pete does all the time. The question of 'you' or me in this example is subject to another dialogue that is not in scope to this discussion. For 'me', I have no clue who I am outside of the stories. Perhaps it is be-ing. It'd be a fun story to explore.

5b) Do you make anything happen?

Please see the response above for 'you'. The story that is Pete likes to believe that he makes things happen. SEEing reveals that concept, 'make anything happen' as an illusion, or just another story.

5c) Give examples from your experience.

It is difficult to give examples to events that did not occur. Will you please clarify if you would like examples from the perspective of Pete as a separate self?

6) Anything to add?

While it wasn't a push, on multiple occasions it was pointed out that 'Vince' was not the one corresponding and, in reality, was nothing more than squiggles on a page. This helped to point out that the Vince with whom i thought i was corresponding was nothing more than an story i created. i applied this lesson to Vince and recognized that he was also acting out of the space of story. From there it was much easier to recognize story everywhere.

Namaste,

Pete

[fuzz1961]

Just re-read and need to clarify ...

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life?

Sure, the story that is Pete does all the time.

i don' this response will be generally understood in the way it is intended. To be more plain, no. None of these things occur in Life. Life 'is'.

[vinceschubert]

Hi Pete. another guide says; "what we're missing is examples for Q5. Granted that there is only the appearance of decision, intention etc, could he give a couple of examples from daily life, firstly described from a personal viewpoint (the story of Pete), the process of how the choice appears to be made, and secondly the same thing described from Life's point of view, what is actually happening. This should clear it up."

love

vince

[fuzz1961]

Good morning Mr. Schubert!

what we're missing is examples for Q5

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

So far this morning i have woken up, opened the curtains, used the bathroom, washed my hands, had my vitamins, and read this thread. There were other things that occurred this morning, some 'i' was aware of but just took for granted and others that just never registered. While working with Susan there was an exercise best illustrates my answer for this. That is, when did i/you notice that a decision, an intention, choice, or control opportunity was available. With this question as the backdrop this is my answer. Each of the items listed and those that are not listed, whether from today, yesterday, or another point in my past, or any point in the future, all occurred before any thought. When the story that is Pete is aware, he recognizes that he did not choose to wake or anything else. That any thought that a choice (etc) was being made was instead an illusion. Here's where it gets fun. That leaves to question what was going on when the story of Pete didn't notice, or apply thought, to things going on. Well, as far as i know that is LIFE. As for the fun part, Pete recognizing illusion is also LIFE.
i sit here typing, 'choosing' thoughts to express, 'intending' to share a concept by 'deciding' to type one word or another. I 'control' my hands and fingers to type the words. Before thought is present it is LIFE just be-ing. After thought occurs, it is still LIFE just be-ing.

i'd like to add one more thing that you probably have seen expressed before. Recognizing that thought/belief, etc is illusion is also a 'thought'. So have we just replaced one set of illusion for another? Perhaps created another belief system?

Have a great day!

Pete

[vinceschubert]

Morning Pete, we have a formality where it is needed that 3 other guides confirm that you have passed through the gateless gate. This has been done, and now you will be invited to join a Facebook group where ' 'gatecrashers' support each other. (and 'deepening' happens)
There are many new 'skills' to be considered as you are entering a whole new world now.
Anyway, lots of this kind of processing happens in these groups, so "friend" me on Facebook and i will invite you to join.
https://www.facebook.com/vince.schubert

and here is a small doc worth reading here; http://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Awakened.pdf

Oh, and once you have settled in, you might consider guiding others (kind of 'paying it forward') which i think that you'll be good at. There is mentoring/training for this, but the wisdom that SEEing reveals takes you most of the way.

love & gratitude

vince

[fuzz1961]

Much appreciation for the guidance from this site and the great team of 'squiggles'. Looking forward to any assistance available to paying forward.

Bowing,

Pete

[vinceschubert]

No worries Pete.
Get settled in some groups and have a look at the various threads. They are all open so feel free to jump in on any of them, or start a new one. No egos there so let it all hang out.
You can message me at any time on FB too.

love

vince