Looking for assistance

[Zoe Mac]

Hey David,

I'm tempted to suggest holding back while you get settled, but as you are keen to keep looking I suggest we carry on but taking things slowly. There's no hurry.

Ok, good suggestion. Have to let go of the idea that this is a race.

Sounds like you are experiencing a lot of strong emotions at the moment. Keep looking at these, not necessarily to see through the self, but as a kind of investigation. Just be an impassive observer, the way you conduct your direct experience is good. Keep looking.

Am finding it difficult to look at emotions impassively as you suggest. Or from the observer stance like with other sensations. Will keep at it though :) Right now the emotions are not arising. Feel pretty vacant.

You seem to be experiencing some fear, here. How is this fear experienced? Is it something real or just a collection of sensations?

Gawd, you know I'm not really sure that I am? I must have been at the time I wrote that last post, but I can't find any now. Perhaps some resistance at starting up this enquiry again? I'm not sure. Right now I cant find any fear of anything.

To touch on the fear thing outside of direct experience, last night I returned to my cottage in a raging tropical storm to find my front and only door unlocked and open. I spent the rest of the night convinced some sort of criminals were going to return. But then it dawned on me that it was all a creation of the mind about a non existent future and since then no more fear has risen in any form. If it returns ill try to look at it and answer your previous question.

I'm looking for any kind of emotion that's coming up, something I can report...

Ok, there's a reluctance to go out. A laziness. Desire to just sloth around inside. The thought processes are trying to put several different meanings to this happening. Trying to justify it. Those being;
-I'm lazy and antisocial
-I'm lethargic and despondent
-Its too hot
-there's nothing I feel like doing
-there's nowhere I feel like going
-I'm happy here
-I'm hiding here
-I'm wasting my time when I could be exploring an exotic land.

So I guess an emotion that I'm contending with right now is guilt. Its funny though, I'm not too sure what's wrong with enjoying just being here and why the mind has to come up with all these reasons not to.

I slept in today and have been lazing around for the day since. Looking around and I'm not sure if this is worth mentioning, but I woke from a really vivid dream a few hours ago and don't know that what I'm experiencing right now feels all that different. Am foggy headed. Maybe just overslept.

Much kindness, Zo x

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Zoe,

Hope you're well.

I like the way you look at your experience. You're very honest and not scared to look closely at things which might be uncomfortable. Great stuff.

The thought processes are trying to put several different meanings to this happening. Trying to justify it. Those being;
-I'm lethargic and despondent
-Its too hot
-there's nothing I feel like doing
-there's nowhere I feel like going
-I'm happy here
-I'm hiding here
I'm wasting my time when I could be exploring an exotic land.

Lots of thoughts there. Let's look into these things thoughts are telling you. The theme here is that there's a feeling that 'you' should act or feel or react in a certain way. But WHO needs to do all this? Who are the thoughts commanding? Is anyone there, or are there just thoughts, then a corresponding feeling? Look into this -- what is the direct experience of the thoughts telling you things should be a certain way? Is there anyone actually being commanded, or just the experience of these commands?

So I guess an emotion that I'm contending with right now is guilt.

How does this guilt show up? Is there an actual thing called 'guilt' or is it just a label for a collection if thoughts and feelings? What us the experience of the thing that feels guilty?

I'm not too sure what's wrong with enjoying just being here

Go for it! A bit of warmth sounds good sat here in this soggy English winter. Don't forget to look around and smell the flowers :-)

Speak to you soon,
David x

[Zoe Mac]

Thanks David, hope you're well also :)

"The thought processes are trying to put several different meanings to this happening. Trying to justify it. Those being;
-I'm lethargic and despondent
-Its too hot
-there's nothing I feel like doing
-there's nowhere I feel like going
-I'm happy here
-I'm hiding here
I'm wasting my time when I could be exploring an exotic land."

Lots of thoughts there. Let's look into these things thoughts are telling you. The theme here is that there's a feeling that 'you' should act or feel or react in a certain way. But WHO needs to do all this? Who are the thoughts commanding?

Its like, if I look I can't find anyone there to take these commands or do these mind driven things, but the problem is that the thoughts are perpetual and rebuttal affirming the idea that its 'me'. Constant trains of thought reacting to the last train of thought or so it seems. Its terribly boring and quite a chore for me to document them, I can't imagine what its like for you to have to read it. It goes like...
- I'm wasting time doing nothing when most people would be exploring.
- I should feel awful.
- Its ok to relax.
- But I might not get this opportunity again.
- There's no rules just let go

And on and on it goes Blah blah blah haha.

The thoughts themselves are not showing a who that the thoughts are commanding. They just arise from nowhere and seem to spur on more thoughts.

Is anyone there, or are there just thoughts, then a corresponding feeling?

I can't find an anyone. There's thoughts and then a sense of discomfort or unease, which I then interpret as "me" or "my guilt." It feels very personal and sometimes debilitating.

Look into this -- what is the direct experience of the thoughts telling you things should be a certain way? Is there anyone actually being commanded, or just the experience of these commands?

The word command is getting me confused here. Perhaps because there is no command happening in any of it. The thoughts appears as ideas of self judgement. Ideas about right or wrong. About what should be happening as opposed to what is happening and how it is my fault and a reflection of the type of person I am. Though these thoughts appear as judgements, they never appear in a form that says. "Do this now" so I guess commandments are not happening. There is no one being commanded. There is observation and experience of the thoughts and judgements. Then there is a subsequent feeling that arises from having had that experience.

How does this guilt show up? Is there an actual thing called 'guilt' or is it just a label for a collection if thoughts and feelings?

When I really look into it, (and its hard now as those experiences were yesterday) I would say the guilt is formed of a bunch of ideas of what should be. What is right. What is wrong. Learned behaviours from past experience, interactions and societal pressures. All of the things that culminate in the unpleasant feeling that I think of as guilt are strings of thought, like the fore mentioned examples.

What is the experience of the thing that feels guilty?

The experience of guilt could be described as thoughts of disapproval of myself. My idea of myself. Thoughts of disappointment and criticism. There's also tightness in the head, stomach, solar plexus. Shortness of breath. Usually a perpetuation of demotivation and desire to hide away from others. And then a chain reaction in behaviours that also create the guilt feeling. Reactions to escape the feeling such as wine, bad food, bad company. Any kind of distraction that in the long run usually leads back to the same sense of guilt.

Go for it! A bit of warmth sounds good sat here in this soggy English winter. Don't forget to look around and smell the flowers :-)

Aww England is so beautiful this time of year! I miss the snowy green Kent countryside :) The warmth of the tropics is beautiful though yes, as long as you are happy to embrace the humidity and sweat! Skins getting a nice glow to it. :)

Look forward to your feedback,
Zo x

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Zoe,

So you used to live in Kent? You certainly get around :-)
Let's have a look at how you're getting on.

The thoughts themselves are not showing a who that the thoughts are commanding. They just arise from nowhere and seem to spur on more thoughts.

The way you explain this suggests you realise you are not your thoughts. But then you say...

There's thoughts and then a sense of discomfort or unease, which I then interpret as "me" or "my guilt." It feels very personal and sometimes debilitating.

Look deeper into this. Who is it that's doing the interpreting? Don't just think you know that you won't find an experiencer, it's important that you deeply experience this lack of anyone there. Same for all these investigations. When you fail to find a self don't just accept it. Look and look until it's obvious there's no self anywhere to be found. The more sure you are the deeper your realisation will be. Ignore the thoughts and focus on the feeling of not finding. What happens when you do this?

Your looking is good. Keep going. You are doing well. Let me know how you get on.

David x

[Zoe Mac]

David,

"The thoughts themselves are not showing a who that the thoughts are commanding. They just arise from nowhere and seem to spur on more thoughts."

The way you explain this suggests you realise you are not your thoughts. But then you say...

"There's thoughts and then a sense of discomfort or unease, which I then interpret as "me" or "my guilt." It feels very personal and sometimes debilitating."

Look deeper into this. Who is it that's doing the interpreting?

How can I find who is doing the interpreting? The mind is doing the interpreting? I don't know that, I can't see a mind...
Thoughts and feelings emerge and create a story or interpretation. Uff feeling frustrated.

Today the person who introduced me to the possibility of all this no self stuff and has helped me with it for a year and a half, he told me he's not doing any "spiritual enquiry" anymore and is going to try to find a way to become a functioning member of society and no longer be a "spiritual freeloader." Mixed feelings about this. Am offended. I actually don't consider any of this stuff spiritual. Also wondering if I'm fooling myself again. I should be trying to look at these thoughts and emotions and dissecting them but I feel really blocked. Upset, feeling strong elements of abandonment and rejection.

OK. Ok ok. Direct experience. In direct experience I am watching the thoughts and feelings. In particular trying to find this abandonment/ rejection stuff. There actually is none when I stop and look for it. Just quietness of mind. But the second I stop looking for it I feel it again.

Really went off topic there, but am going to post anyway in the hope that you might know better than I, as to what I should be looking at or how to do so.

In answer to your question, I can't find an interpreter but there is interpretation clearly going on.

Don't just think you know that you won't find an experiencer, it's important that you deeply experience this lack of anyone there. Same for all these investigations. When you fail to find a self don't just accept it. Look and look until it's obvious there's no self anywhere to be found. The more sure you are the deeper your realisation will be. Ignore the thoughts and focus on the feeling of not finding. What happens when you do this?

I really appreciate this comment and line of questioning David. It made me see that without intention, for a while now I have just been saying the words "I see/ find no self" based on findings of LU experiments months ago, but without actually looking to see what I find now. I'm not sure that I know how or where to actually look for the "I" or experiencer.

Very in my head today apologies in advance.

Best wishes,
Zoe

[Zoe Mac]

Gah! Sorry. There was supposed to be a very humble and friendly sounding "Hi" in front of the first "David" in my last post. Must have gotten lost in the copy and paste! :s xxx

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Zoe,

Not sure I'd call this search spiritual either, though I do say 'hi' to my little Buddha statues from time to time :-)
It's more of an exploration of who you really are.

You say you are frustrated. I remember that feeling well, of 'why aren't I getting this?' Keep looking and it will come.

There actually is none when I stop and look for it. Just quietness of mind. But the second I stop looking for it I feel it again.

Remember this isn't a state we're after. It's that Santa thing: when you found out about the truth about Santa you didn't have to go around telling yourself he didn't exist the whole time. But if the question came up, you just knew. This is similar. Only more experiential.

I'm not sure that I know how or where to actually look for the "I" or experiencer.

Right, let's find a likely candidate. Look carefully: where in your body is your self actually experienced? Most people might suggest it's in the head. Is that the same for you? Where in your head is it? How big is it? Does it have a shape? A colour? Maybe it's somewhere else in the body? Does it move or is it always in the same place? Get as clear a handle on this as you can. Describe in detail for me how the self is experienced.

Looking forward to what you come up with,

David x

[Zoe Mac]

Hi David, sorry for delay in posting, am riding out an awful migraine this evening (at least I hope that's what it is) will get back to you as soon as poss with reply.

Zo

[Hector's ghost]

Hope you feel better soon x

[Zoe Mac]

Hey David,

Say hi to your Buddha's for me too. :)

You say you are frustrated. I remember that feeling well, of 'why aren't I getting this?' Keep looking and it will come.

Thanks for the encouragement. :)

"I'm not sure that I know how or where to actually look for the "I" or experiencer."

Right, let's find a likely candidate. Look carefully: where in your body is your self actually experienced?

I covered this stuff heaps with Pete, but ill look again. :)

The self is experienced as the thoughts that seemingly sit behind the eyes, behind the face. In a head I can't see except in a mirrored reflection. Also kind of in the bodily sensations of touch and in the experiencing of other senses.

Most people might suggest it's in the head. Is that the same for you? Where in your head is it? How big is it? Does it have a shape? A colour?

Oh that's funny. How big is it? If its in the head then it must be smaller than the size of a head? Lol no. It doesn't have a size. Its like unseeable. Indescribable. Just a thought machine that experiences sensations and emotions. I can feel a tingling, almost like a not unpleasant fireball or rapidly swirling sparking something right now in the region of my chest/ torso. Maybe that's it? I have no idea.

Maybe it's somewhere else in the body?

I can feel a tingling, almost like a not unpleasant fireball or rapidly swirling sparking something right now in the region of my chest/ torso. Maybe that's it? I have no idea. everything the body experiences, feels, tastes, smells, sees, hears- plus thoughts and emotions. Thats what I have and still think of as the self.

Does it move or is it always in the same place? Get as clear a handle on this as you can. Describe in detail for me how the self is experienced.

Getting a clear handle on it seems utter impossibility. For me anyway. Maybe I have a lot to break down. In terms of if it moves, it seems always to be right in the centre of everything that's happening. It moves through the world, rooms in the middle of the head atop the body - always as far as I can tell. From behind the head. Behind the seeing. I see that this is all conjecture. None of it can be proven or witnessed. But I still live in the belief that's that what is.


Best wishes

Zoe

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Zoe,

Sorry if you covered this stuff with Pete before. The reason I wanted you to look again at how you see the self us that it is easier to see through an illusion if you can get a handle on what it is you are trying to see through.

The point is that if you can become aware of something then that something cannot be who you really are. How could it be? And if what you see as the self moves around as you say it does -- one minute it's seen in one place, the next in another -- then that thing cannot be a permanently existing entity.

So what you can do now us look again for the self, but this time what you can also do is try and see if you can find the thing that's looking. So if you find yourself looking for the self in your head, try and look back at the thing that's doing the searching. Become aware of the search. Is what you find the self, or does it go further back? Is there something looking at that?

You might find this easier if you sit quietly with this. If you get too frustrated then stop awhile. It's quite a subtle investigation but one that's worth spending time on.

Looking forward to what you come up with.

David x

[Zoe Mac]

Morning David, oh Nono I didn't mean anything when saying I'd covered this stuff with Pete. Am quite happy to go over the same thing again and again as I'm not getting it. Your approach is angled much differently also. I'm very grateful.

I'll have a look into this today and get back to you this eve. Heavy hot rain today perfect to sit on the porch and ponder. :) x

[Zoe Mac]

Hi David,

I looked for myself and again found a body and chest from the neck down and the tip of a blurry nose.. (Hand writing these words on this page.) A sense of looking out. Looking out visually and thoughtfully trying to find a me. am I the looking out that's looking for me? Am I the looking? But I can observe the looking. So am I the looking at the looking? Uck! I cant seem to get a clear handle on anything here.

Going to try to look at the self from the beginning and start again...

... I feel like the only handle I can get on the location, idea of "self", myself, is that it is whatever is behind the looking.

I have this sense of urgency, like im really close. (To what I don't know) Am wanting to step further but I don't know how.

Am I supposed to just look at the looking and the looking of the looking?

Much respect and thanks,

Zoe

[Hector's ghost]

Hi Zoe,

Hope you had a good weekend.

Am I the looking out that's looking for me? Am I the looking? But I can observe the looking. So am I the looking at the looking? Uck! I cant seem to get a clear handle on anything here.

What if there's nothing to hold onto? There's looking but no looker. Looking just happens. I know you've explored this before but it's relevant to what you're currently looking into. You step back, and back, and back, but never find the thing that's looking.

Have another look into this and really get a feel for the fact that no self can be found, no seer, hearer or any other entity. Just seeing, hearing, feeling etc.

I have this sense of urgency, like im really close.

I suspect you really are. Try and feel this, rather than trying to think it through.

Am I supposed to just look at the looking and the looking of the looking?

Yes that's it. Keep looking like that until you get a real feel for there being no seer doing that looking. If you get too frustrated take a rest. Try to look in a relaxed way, focusing on that experience of not finding.

Let me know how you get on,
David x

[Zoe Mac]

Hi David,

I was reading Gateless Gatecrashers just now because theres been a big storm all day and the internets are all down- Haven't been able to get online to read your posts or do studies or replies...

I was reading Elizabeth's story and she brings up a quote from Krishnamurti- Ready to die? Cut off your head!

I put my tablet down and imagined my head removed. Not in a gruesome or violent manner, just gone. Not there.

With that seemed to come an expansion, barrier removal or simple shift. (But that's not right, I can't find the words, nor understand really)

Is this my mind playing games with me?

Feel a little drunk. Little disorientated. Am I saying that, feeling that because I've heard stories that that's what happens?

Theres no head, theres nothing in or behind a no head.

What is looking?

I can't grasp it!

What is looking??


Zoe