Guide THIS please

[Hannah B-T]

Seeing the thoughts arise is just another level of 'I' - lol. mmmm?

like an observer?
yes -this is something very relevant to look at.
Is there an observer of thoughts?

[Troy]

I seems like there is an observer...noticing the thoughts or looking at them. presence or awareness but then when thoughts begin to be judged which is likely not the observer or presence. But I will look more...perhaps the 'watcher' of the thoughts is just another level of thought? We'll see.

x

[Troy]

Is it not easy to see most around us are living from one thought to the next? Unaware? Making decisions and actions that come from a place of fear and limitation. That is all. Nothing they do can be or should be seen as an attack or fearful.

Fear is merely a body sensation: in the stomach or chest, bile in the throat, a racing of the pulse or a pounding is the temples. But all this is just a reaction to a thought. If the thoughts has no base then were is the reaction. Awareness see the thought as not true and fear is unnecessary. So is the awareness the observer? If that is your definition.

Looking in the eyes of a loved one and my cat...I see nothing. Is there unconsciousness to look at...can you hold a piece of darkness? is a lie true? is there an opposite of Life? Can you see nothing? Of course not. And I see what you are saying...It points back to everything just IS.

x

[Hannah B-T]

Why so many question marks? Are you asking me for answers? i have none. Just more questions... ;)

I seems like there is an observer...noticing the thoughts or looking at them

Bingo.
Is that what 'people' are? little separate observers? is that the current experience?
Where does this observation take place from? Does it have a location?

but then when thoughts begin to be judged which is likely not the observer or presence

You seem to indicate here there is something judging thoughts?
Is that true?
Or are there just more thoughts appearing talking about 'judgement'?

perhaps the 'watcher' of the thoughts is just another level of thought? We'll see

Glad this is being looked at- What is being found out about this?

Is it not easy to see most around us are living from one thought to the next? Unaware? Making decisions and actions that come from a place of fear and limitation

I see that is a story about what might be going on.
I have no idea.
What purpose does this story seem to serve?

Fear is merely a body sensation: in the stomach or chest, bile in the throat, a racing of the pulse or a pounding is the temples

Yes, there are these sensations that are labelled fear.

If the thoughts has no base then were is the reaction

didn't get this, what do you mean 'if the thoughts have no base'?

But all this is just a reaction to a thought.

Is it?
What about when you step in front of a car in the street?

Can you see nothing? Of course not. And I see what you are saying...It points back to everything just IS.

No you cannot see something that is not there!

What we have been exploring is that there has been much inquiry into if 'self' is there...and have found no such thing.
I have then been encouraging investigation into assumptions i have clocked in your responses that 'others' are there...which seems intimately related.

What can you say about that now?

[Troy]

The observer is just there...sometimes seems like it is within and then others it is out there. it is not anywhere specific...It seems thoughts try to 'claim' the observer for themselves. But the thoughts are not the observer.

Thoughts talking about thoughts is what is happening i see.

A thoughts labeled fearful has a response in the body but it is not justified. Even stepping in front of a car just is. Why does it have to be fearful. The outcome either 'safe' or destruction of the body is fine either way - nothing lost. The may be a slight surge of adrenaline but not the butterflies and all that. Even now when my kids jump out and try and scar me or they do something that might endanger them there is peace in situations rather then the false drama/hysteria that most go through.

I am not sure I understand your statement about others...please explain.

[Hannah B-T]

I'll rephrase as simply as possible here-

Is there such a thing as a 'self'?
Is there such a thing as 'other people'?

The observer is just there...sometimes seems like it is within and then others it is out there. it is not anywhere specific...It seems thoughts try to 'claim' the observer for themselves. But the thoughts are not the observer.

So this observer changes location? sometimes 'within'...sometimes 'out there' sometimes nowhere?

How is 'inside' and 'outside' directly experienced?
Where and what is the boundary between inside and outside? can you describe that to me?

[Troy]

There is no self...so there cannot be an 'other'.

The observer cannot be found when looked for...there is just awareness. What is aware? I don't know how to find it.

Inside and out side seem to be experienced from the senses. but that puts us right back at the body as the boundary. I'm not sure what to look for...

[Hannah B-T]

Nice looking, thanks!

The observer cannot be found when looked for...there is just awareness. What is aware? I don't know how to find it.

#
yes.
This is the totally core assumption.
that there must be SOMETHING that is aware.
Is there?

Look again at sensation-
put on a piece of music
is there 2 experiences there- i.e a hearer (subject/awareness etc) and a heard (music)
is that how it really is?
or is there just hearing?

Let's look at touch-

Inside and out side seem to be experienced from the senses. but that puts us right back at the body as the boundary. I'm not sure what to look for...

yes, it is sometimes experienced as a boundary at the skin. Let's see if that assumption of thought holds up to scrutiny.

Sitting- go to the sensations of sitting with eyes closed.
Can in direct experience before thoughts and labels a 'chair' and a 'buttocks' be felt?
look really closely for any boundary experienced whatsoever.
feet on floor...
hands of table/wall...
skin/air...

then sit with eyes closed and take a relaxed gentle look at all the sensations currently labelled 'body'.
Can a boundary or distinction actually be found or felt between sensations labelled 'inside/body' and 'outside/world'?

[Hannah B-T]

This is more metaphorical based but tell me how this goes-
From Greg Goode's book the direct path-

Imagine you are on a camping trip with friends. You're inside your tent. You wake up after a nap and look at the inside wall of your tent.You see a vague lighted area around ground level. You smell a very faint hickory-smoke fragrance.You hear muffled voices. And you see indentations moving back and forth on the canvas,as though someone is moving their finger back and forth.
You stick your head out the tent door. Aha! Now you can see the camp fire. You can smell the hickory smoke more vividly. You hear your friends voices clearly. And you see that a branch is scraping the outside wall of the tent. You can check these impressions by poking your head back in the tent. Yes! You can see the effects on the inside of the tent made by the various activities taking place on the outside of the tent.

Look back towards the tent. Look inwards at the door. Notice that you can see the inside of the tent, the outside of the tent and even a canvas border in between. You are looking at a container. You can see inside the container, outside the container and the wall that separates them. Try to visualise this as vividly as you can.

Now examine your experience for borders. (as in my last post which breaks that down a bit more).
If awareness is contained, then you should be able to verify the walls of the container. In any way do you perceive a wall or borders of a container of experience. Do you experience that awareness is inside something? Do you experience in an way a container that you could possibly be outside of? (think of the tent metaphor). can you experience any walls from the outside?

[Troy]

I see that there is the body container. There is also the world container. I can experience the inside of the body like feeling the heart beat and the tingle of the skin as the nerves 'feel' the skin. As I look inside for the observer I come us against something...call it a wall, but I cannot go any further or I don't know how to get through to find where the observer starts. This would be considered going beyond the world of sense I suppose. No thoughts just experience I see will ever get me there but I still cannot find it. The awareness seems stuck in this body. 'Outside' 'Inside'? not sure if these concepts are important.

[Hannah B-T]

Great looking! Thank you.

I can experience the inside of the body like feeling the heart beat

Ok. So a sensation happens labelled 'heart beat'?
Can you see that once upon a time you might have learnt that label.
You saw some image of a heart beating, someone put their hand on your chest and said...oh your heart is beating fast...?

before all that there is just sensation...

tingle of the skin as the nerves 'feel' the skin

Can you actually feel 'nerves feeling the skin??' Wow! I can't.

Before the labels, the thoughts, the images...what's there?

I see that there is the body container

Did you actually do the sitting/tactile exercises?
Tell me exactly, in detail what was experienced with that.
We are investigating where and what this containment is actually felt and experienced to be.

There is also the world container

wow! What on earth is a world container'? Never heard of that before.
A container has walls, boundaries, volume, size right?
So describe to me exactly what the walls are, where are the boundaries are, what's the size/volume of this 'world container'.

As I look inside for the observer I come us against something...call it a wall, but I cannot go any further or I don't know how to get through to find where the observer starts

How is this wall experienced?
Is it that thoughts stop?
That certain sensations arise?
Is it possible you are looking for something that just isn't there?
How can you see an absence?

[Troy]

fair on the Heart scenario - it is a sensation of some sort of thumping in the chest.

Before labels, thoughts and images just experience or awareness which then labels.

The body's boundary seems to be the skin but there is also other senses sight hearing and energy like the feeling of someone stand close behind you - you cannot feel or see them but you know they are there.

World is more difficult - it is where the concept of seemingly unable to go and find the observer - rather 'stuck' here unable to leave to go where the observers origin is. If that makes sense.

I will go into your last questions soon and see what of this 'wall' between here and there. Is it thoughts that stop or perhaps there is nothing? How do we see absence? I'll look.

[Troy]

:) It is thought trying to find thee observer. funny. Cannot be done. will keep looking

[Hannah B-T]

Did you actually do the sitting/tactile exercises?
Tell me exactly, in detail what was experienced with that.
We are investigating where and what this containment is actually felt and experienced to be.

Let me know if you need more specific instructions pointers on that. But basically whenever there appears to be 'contact' between body and a solid object (ground walls seats etc) then look and see if an actual boundary can be discerned.
Start small.
Talk me through that...

;)

[Troy]

Yes. I have sat several times and done the exercise. With eyes open and closed, holding an object and even lying down. I feel the closes on the body, or the pencil in the fingers or the pressure of the chair. It seems there is a definite barrier or delineation between the body and all else. I can breath air in...I can drink water and both become 'mixed' or lost in the body. Skin seems to be the boundary. I cannot put the hand through a wall and the pencil does not fall 'through' the skin and bones/muscle as if it is just vapor. What should I see?