The Gate

Hi Matt,

I have not seen through the illusion of self :-(

It is still only an intellectual knowledge of the illusion.

That is OK. Honesty about this is highly appreciated.


What happens reading this:

"You" don't have any control over "your" life, you have never had it nor will you ever have it. There is no such thing as control.

There is conflict within me as to what enlightenment would mean if acheived, but there is certainty that it is what is desired.

What is the conflict about?
If both 'sides' could talk what would they say?
What feelings are associated with this conflict?

I will list below everything that comes up when I consider expectations for enlightenment.

- The end of negative traits such as anger, overreaction, fear, stress, wanting, jealousy etc etc.
- The end of seeking.
- The feeling of contentment and wholeness as if a puzzle has been completed.
- A permanent feeling of peace and waves of joy.
- A permanent state of heightened aliveness or consciousness.
- The end of wrong actions
- Automatically being liked if not reverred by others.
- A sense of acheivement over others who are not enlightened.

The list reads like some sort of fairly tale and some points are very strongtly rooted in "I", but I feel that perhaps the end of seeking and maybe the end of wrong actions may occur when the sense of self has truly been seen as false.

You seem to want things to change to the better.
That is OK.

But look into this:
Is there anything wrong with this reality right now?
Is there anything missing to this moment?

Equally important, does it feel like anything is missing?
What is this feeling?

Thanks for your patience

You welcome.

Warm regards,
Nenad

On my phone again so no quote function.

When I read the statement about control there is a sensation in the chest, a sort of tightness. The feeling is simulate to that when I feel anger or stress. There are also thoughts of disbelief that the statement is true as the sense of control seems strong in everyday life. Things like organising my schedule, choosing what to eat etc.

As for the conflict. One side does not want to let go of the notion that there will be a big shift in consciousness and this will somehow cause an upgrade in all areas of my life such as less stress, more happiness, more wealth, better health etc. the other side knows this is not or at least will not necessarily be the case and that enlightenment will not change anything other than perception. These two conflicting thoughts cause doubts over whether the apparent effort is worth it. There is also the thought that enlightenment will never be reached and that I am not cut out for this process of self inquiry.

There is nothing wrong with this moment.
The main reason I started on this journey "the spiritual path" was I had problems with drugs and alcohol. These issues have largely gone however the thoughts of them both still arise and on a few occasions in the past year I have succombed and gone of the rails a bit. At those moments I cannot accept that the now is ok. Furthermore it is hard to accept that I have no control over these things and that essentially I could go off the rails again and there is nothing "I" can do about it.

Is there anything missing in this moment? Does it feel like there is anything missing and how does this feel? There is nothing specific that I can say is missing, but there is a feeling that there is something I am missing. Not a physical thing but some kind of essential knowledge or state of being. I often feel when trivial things stress me out or make me angry that I am doing this through identification with the ego/ thoughts/self and that if I could seem them for what they really are then these things would in turn drop away. It feels though like there is something just out of my grasp and I cannot quite see or reach it.

I hope that my complete honesty may lead to the gate finally.

Thanks nenad your guidance really is much appreciated.
Matt

Hi,

Is there anything wrong with feeling angry?
What memories, thoughts, feelings are associated with this: "Matt is angry."

Is there anything wrong with feeling angry?

No I guess not as there is no decision in the process, no control. Something happens and then there is anger. Anger is not a pleasant experience therefore the thought comes "why am I angry?" or more likely "whose fault is it that I am angry and who can I blame it on".

What memories, thoughts, feelings are associated with this: "Matt is angry."

To be honest with you nothing really comes up. There is perhaps a slight tightening in the chest, but nothing significant.

It is very frustrating that the illusion of control sometimes seems so strong and then in other moments it is noticed that there is no control. This is all governed by the thoughts and beliefs about the expereince I know. I am just finding it hard to drop the belief that there is no control, no I.

I may not be able to post over the weekend this weekend as I have a lot on, but I will do if I get the chance. If not then I will back with you on Monday.

Hi Matt,

Anger is not a pleasant experience therefore the thought comes "why am I angry?" or more likely "whose fault is it that I am angry and who can I blame it on".

And those are just thoughts. Nothing wrong with them :)

It is very frustrating that the illusion of control sometimes seems so strong and then in other moments it is noticed that there is no control. This is all governed by the thoughts and beliefs about the expereince I know. I am just finding it hard to drop the belief that there is no control, no I.

No need for frustration (nothing wrong with it, though),
illusion only seems to be strong.
Just keep Looking and beliefs will drop naturally.

Plan something in details.
Write the plan here in this thread.
Make it really detailed.

I may not be able to post over the weekend this weekend as I have a lot on, but I will do if I get the chance. If not then I will back with you on Monday.

OK. No problem.

Kind regards,
Nenad

Hi Nenad,

I hope you had a pleasant weekend.

You asked me to write a plan in detail. It just so happens that I am very busy this week so I can write a plan for that. I guess that the exercise will be to see how things pan out and if the plan made any difference and was followed. I will try this for the rest of my activities today.

10:40 - 11:45: complete daily reports for work.
11:45 - My wife and son come home from swimming.
11:50 - I go to get bread out of the freezer for lunch.
11:50 - 12:30 - Have lunch with my wife and son in the kitchen, we will have minestrone soup with toasted bread followed by some fruit, a banana for me.
12:30 - I call the phone company to advise them that I am swapping houses with my in-laws who live at the same address, but in the main house whereas we live in the annex.
12:45 - write a budget spreadsheet for our building project.
13:00 - 14:30 - pack up my office ready to move next door. I will box up all the things I do not need in the immediate future and then stack them in the garage. I will also go and measure up in the room next door where my office will be to check whether the desk fits OK.
14:30- return to my desk, check emails and work on a couple of files that in my intray.
15:30 - 16:30 - list items for sale on eBay that I have from clearing out the garage.
16:30 - Have a drink and a chat with my wife and play with my son.
17:00 - make dinner, tonight we will have Pasta and garlic bread.
17:30 -Eat dinner with my family.
18:00 - Watch TV for 30 mins with my family
18:30 - My wife will have a bath with my son whilst I get his clothes ready for bed.
18:45 - I will dry and dress my son ready for bed.
18:50 - I will read bedtime stories to my son; the ladybird book and peekabo baby
19:00 - I meditate whilst my son goes to sleep.
19:20 - I go to Tai Chi class
19:30 - 21:30 - Tai Chi class
21:40 - I get home from Tai Chi and speak to my wife for 10 minutes
21:50 - get ready for bed, brush teeth.
22:00 - Go to bed.

Hopefully this is the sort of plan you meant. I can see that these things may vary despite the careful planning. Some may be accurate. Perhaps this was not the best plan for me to write as my days are fairly structured around my son who is only 18months old therefore we have a set routine which remains constant apart from in rare circusmtances. Would it perhaps be better to plan something a little less predictable?

Thanks
Matt

Again I dont think this plan above was the best plan to go with as I know from experience that the timings might change and that some of the activities might change, so I would not expect this to be completely accurate even if "i" was in control. Could you perhaps suggest something else I could plan in order to carry out this exercise?

Hi Matt,

I hope you had a pleasant weekend.

Thanks. It was OK. I hope you had a nice weekend too.

10:40 - 11:45: complete daily reports for work.
11:45 - My wife and son come home from swimming.
11:50 - I go to get bread out of the freezer for lunch.
11:50 - 12:30 - Have lunch with my wife and son in the kitchen, we will have minestrone soup with toasted bread followed by some fruit, a banana for me.
12:30 - I call the phone company to advise them that I am swapping houses with my in-laws who live at the same address, but in the main house whereas we live in the annex.
12:45 - write a budget spreadsheet for our building project.
13:00 - 14:30 - pack up my office ready to move next door. I will box up all the things I do not need in the immediate future and then stack them in the garage. I will also go and measure up in the room next door where my office will be to check whether the desk fits OK.
14:30- return to my desk, check emails and work on a couple of files that in my intray.
15:30 - 16:30 - list items for sale on eBay that I have from clearing out the garage.
16:30 - Have a drink and a chat with my wife and play with my son.
17:00 - make dinner, tonight we will have Pasta and garlic bread.
17:30 -Eat dinner with my family.
18:00 - Watch TV for 30 mins with my family
18:30 - My wife will have a bath with my son whilst I get his clothes ready for bed.
18:45 - I will dry and dress my son ready for bed.
18:50 - I will read bedtime stories to my son; the ladybird book and peekabo baby
19:00 - I meditate whilst my son goes to sleep.
19:20 - I go to Tai Chi class
19:30 - 21:30 - Tai Chi class
21:40 - I get home from Tai Chi and speak to my wife for 10 minutes
21:50 - get ready for bed, brush teeth.
22:00 - Go to bed.

Good. Look what happens during the day.

Perhaps this was not the best plan for me to write as my days are fairly structured around my son who is only 18months old therefore we have a set routine which remains constant apart from in rare circusmtances. Would it perhaps be better to plan something a little less predictable?

Actually, it is good to look at illusion where it seems strongest, to Look into those activities witch seem to be the most predictable.

I would not expect this to be completely accurate even if "i" was in control.

That is just a thought :)


Look what happens during the day and we will talk more tonight or tomorrow.


Warm regards,
Nenad

Again I dont think this plan above was the best plan to go with as I know from experience that the timings might change and that some of the activities might change, so I would not expect this to be completely accurate even if "i" was in control.

How accurate do you expect it to be? In percents?

Hi Matt,
How was your day?

Again I dont think this plan above was the best plan to go with as I know from experience that the timings might change and that some of the activities might change, so I would not expect this to be completely accurate even if "i" was in control.

When looking into the illusion of control,
thought naturally arises,
making this illusion less obvious.
>>Again I dont think this plan above was the best plan to go with<< This is a thought.
>>I know from experience that the timings might change and that some of the activities might change<<This is another thought.
>>I would not expect this to be completely accurate even if "i" was in control.<< This is also a thought.

No need to stop looking when the thought arises.
It is just a thought.

I would not expect this to be completely accurate even if "i" was in control.

You wouldn't expect absolute accuracy, but would you expect it to be accurate to a certain degree?
How accurate exactly?
How accurate does something have to be in order to be labeled as a schedule and not as a fantasy?
Is there a dividing line between organising the schedule and fantasising the fantasy?
Or is the schedule just a really boring fantasy? :)
In organising the schedule, what aspect of organising differs it from fantasising?


Is there control?
Is there a plan that could prove control better than this one already written?
If yes, go ahead, write that plan in this thread. Make it really detailed again.
If no, we will look into this one :)


Kind regards,
Nenad

How accurate do you expect it to be? In percents?

I didn't get a chance to write back yesterday, but I would have said maybe 70% accurate.

How was your day?

Different to the plan!

You wouldn't expect absolute accuracy, but would you expect it to be accurate to a certain degree?
How accurate exactly?
How accurate does something have to be in order to be labeled as a schedule and not as a fantasy?

If I were writing a scehdule for an event perhaps then you would expect a pretty high level of accuracy, maybe in the 90% region. As for a personal schedule, something similar to the one I wrote yesterday I guess less accuracy maybe 70% or so like I said.

So how accurate what my plan? Well I count up 23 points in total and not counting the times that I put down 12 points were accurate and 11 were not so around 50% accurate, but if you count the times I put down also then it would be less and also if you count the activities that I carried out that are not on the plan then it would be less again maybe as low as 30%. All in all though not very accurate.

I was aware of the plan at points through the day and noticed when I was doing things that were not as planned and that these things were just happening and that was OK.

Is there a dividing line between organising the schedule and fantasising the fantasy?
Or is the schedule just a really boring fantasy? :)
In organising the schedule, what aspect of organising differs it from fantasising?

For quite some time I have always experienced lots of these boring fantasies where all the items that "need" doing are listed in thought and then either a "plan" is made on how/when they will be completed or "stress" occurs as there does not appear to be enough time to complete all the tasks. When the first thought occurs, a plan, it is often the case that the plan does not transpire then stressful feelings and thoughts occur as what is happening is not what was thought previously.

It seems that should the central belief of "me" been seen through then experiences like the one described above will be experienced differently. For example the thought of making a plan will come up and a plan may be made, however knowing that there is no control the day can be observed from a viewpoint where the plan is not expected to transpire almost like some kind of guessing game as to what will happen in the day, but altogether a much less stressful experience if it is known from the outset that the plan is just a thought and it will have no effect on what actually happens even though it may appear to by being 30% accurate ro maybe more on occasions. I shall continue to observe these plans/fantasies that occur with interest and compare them to real events.

I have not seen "no self" however. For example I had a minor argument with my wife this morning and instantly thoughts and feelings of "i" am right, "she" is wrong etc came up. After a while these thoughts dropped away, but at the time they were still very much felt from a personal perspective.

It feels like progress has slowed from my perspective and I am feeling a bit despondant this morning. Is it innevitable that the illusion will be seen if I persist or do many leave without seeing? It feels a little like I cannot do it.

Thanks again
Matt

Hi Matt,

zomajo wrote

nenad wrote:
How was your day?

Different to the plan!

:)

So how accurate what my plan? Well I count up 23 points in total and not counting the times that I put down 12 points were accurate and 11 were not so around 50% accurate, but if you count the times I put down also then it would be less and also if you count the activities that I carried out that are not on the plan then it would be less again maybe as low as 30%. All in all though not very accurate.

So, 7 or 8 points were completely accurate?
List them.
Look into each point: Describe in detail how did it happen. Did it happen exactly as planned?


Please read this link and do the exercises. http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... rship.html
What happens? Report from direct Experience (felt senses and observed thoughts).
You have already done exercise 1 once, but repetition is good. :)

It feels like progress has slowed from my perspective and I am feeling a bit despondant this morning. Is it innevitable that the illusion will be seen if I persist or do many leave without seeing? It feels a little like I cannot do it.

Are you considering giving up?

Warm regards,
Nenad

Are you considering giving up?

No I was just feeling a little despondant yesterday and guess I was looking for some encouragement or reassurance.

I will make a start on the exercises later today.

Just to warn you I am going away on Friday for a week. I may be able to post a few times over the week, but maybe not. Certainly I will not be able to post every day. Perhaps we can see where we are tomorrow and you could maybe leave me some exercises to carry out through the week so keep the process in the forefront?

Will post again later
M

Hi Matt,

zomajo wrote:

nenad wrote:
Are you considering giving up?

No I was just feeling a little despondant yesterday and guess I was looking for some encouragement or reassurance.

Sorry, I can be a little insensitive sometimes. I wanted to make a point: If you are not considering giving up, it doesn't matter whether someone else has given up or not.
I see no reason why you wouldn't see through the illusion of separate self.

Seeing is not a personal accomplishment.
It has nothing to do with character Matt, nor with any of the characters.
When writing posts/engaging in this process, is there someone writing/engaging? Or do writing and engaging just happen?

Just to warn you I am going away on Friday for a week. I may be able to post a few times over the week, but maybe not. Certainly I will not be able to post every day. Perhaps we can see where we are tomorrow and you could maybe leave me some exercises to carry out through the week so keep the process in the forefront?

Sure. We will do that.

I will make a start on the exercises later today.

Looking forward to reading about it :)
In the meanwhile, a little reminder on what is the main tool for this inquiry - dE:

Direct Experience is that witch can be sensually experienced right now + thoughts that can be corroborated with this sensual experience.
The opposite to dE are beliefs - thoughts that can only be corroborated with other thoughts, and not with any sensual experience right now.
In this process, you want to examine thoughts that say there are thinker, controller, doer, chooser, perceiver (seer, hearer, smeller, taster, feeler, toucher), experiencer, awareness in/as body, owner. You want to determine whether these thoughts are direct experience or beliefs.
You examine this by comparing thoughts with sensual experience and checking if they match.


In direct experience, is there a controller in control?

What does the word 'controller' point to? Does controller have a size, shape or form? What mental pictures are associated with the word 'controller'?


Warm regards,
Nenad

Hi nenad. Apologies for my lack of a response but there was no time for me to post before going away. I will consider to examine de and whether there is a doer/controller and we will link up again next week when I am home.

Best wishes until then
Matt