The Gate

Hi Manuel

I'm very sorry to hear about the death of your grandmother. My condolences to you and your family. The death of a loved one is always a time of self-reflection, and reflecting on memories.

I don't want to put you under any pressure at this time.

You haven't fully answered all of the questions and fully reported on the exercises that I gave you in my last post. And what you did reply was not really reported from direct experiential evidence. It's important that you do. I understand if you don't have the motivation to do it during this time, but when you're ready please reply again with answers and reports that are as full as possible.

It's especially important to remain as true as possible to direct experiential evidence during this emotional time.

Before you reply please read your last six posts and my replies to them, and it may be easier for you if you use the quote function in your reply. You can find instructions on how to use it here: http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=4&t=660

Once again, my condolences on the death of your grandmother.

Hi, john

Thank you for the condolences

Are you really a person? Is there really an "I" that is nervous?

I know I am not a person from my point of view. I see other prsons but from my point if view I am a kind of background awareness I cant see, no color, no shape, a body without head and instead of head there is vision

Please explain, to the best of your ability, this "gap" that you see "between thoughts and the I".

There are thoughts and something that sees the thoughts and is aware of the thoughts. That something aware of the toughts is what is feñlt or sensed as the I. And there is a separation between this sense of I and the table and the wall. Objects vs subject. But perhaps I cant lable this "I" as a person because what is a person...an individual entity, separated entity, in that sense I feel that separation although it is conceptual.
The I is he impression of being able to choose this or that in order to improve my life. There is no sense of totality of wholeness here
The identification with the body is still here. The sense of location

Can thoughts think?

Thoughts arise but I assume they arise from a me. i dont know actually. There seems to be an act of will deciding to think. And thoughts are not independent but there seems to be a process in which thoughts arise. The I seems to decide which thoughts are good or valid and which ones not. There seems to be something behind thoughts making an effort to produce them.

Hi Manuel

My apologies!!

I was wondering why you hadn't replied for so long, so I went to the thread to post a reminder, and I found your latest reply - which I had somehow missed.

It's very late here now, so I will have to reply to you tomorrow morning.

My apologies again.

Hi Manuel

I hope that you and your family are managing to come to terms with the pain of your loss.

I know I am not a person from my point of view. I see other prsons but from my point if view I am a kind of background awareness I cant see, no color, no shape, a body without head and instead of head there is vision

Nice :)

So then if you are not a person, what is it that is nervous?

Is there really something that is nervous, or is there just the idea "I am a nervous person" showing up?

Please explain, to the best of your ability, this "gap" that you see "between thoughts and the I".

There are thoughts and something that sees the thoughts and is aware of the thoughts. That something aware of the toughts is what is feñlt or sensed as the I.

Yes, absolutely no doubt that there is awareness of thoughts, and no doubt it's you that is aware of thoughts, but is this "you", that is aware of thoughts, a separate "something" in this?

And there is a separation between this sense of I and the table and the wall. Objects vs subject. But perhaps I cant lable this "I" as a person because what is a person...an individual entity, separated entity, in that sense I feel that separation although it is conceptual.

Ok well let's look at this object and subject thing then. You've already discovered that there is no "I", and no thinker of thoughts, so what is the "subject"? In direct experience can you TRULY find a "subject" and an "object"? Look very carefully before answering this question.

The I is he impression of being able to choose this or that in order to improve my life.

Ok, let's look at choice then. Is there REALLY such a thing as choice?

Take a look at direct experience and tell me whether there is even such a thing as choice, or whether "choice" is something that thought makes up about things that happen.

A thought pops up which says "I feel like a cup of coffee" and making a cup of coffee happens. Was there really a "choice" about anything?

A thought springs up which says "Should I have tea or coffee?" and a thought springs up that says "I think I would prefer coffee".

Was there a thinker of those thoughts? Was there really a choice for anybody? Was there even a choice about the thought "Should I have tea or coffee?"?

Why wasn't "Milo" offered?

What decided to offer ONLY tea or coffee as the "choices"? What had any "choice" about offering ONLY tea or coffee, and what had any choice about coffee being "chosen"?

There is no sense of totality of wholeness here
The identification with the body is still here. The sense of location

What is the 'location" then? Please answer ONLY from direct experiential evidence. Is there a "location", or is "location" just an idea?

Can thoughts think?

Thoughts arise but I assume they arise from a me.

But you've already discovered that "me" exists EXCLUSIVELY in thought (you can recheck that if you like).

So clearly they don't arise from a "me".

There seems to be an act of will deciding to think.

So how did that free will investigation go? Is there really a "will" or a "choice"?

And thoughts are not independent but there seems to be a process in which thoughts arise.

Yes. there SEEMS to be process in which thoughts arise, but so does a dream seem like a process in which thoughts arise. Is a dream an act of will?

The I seems to decide which thoughts are good or valid and which ones not. There seems to be something behind thoughts making an effort to produce them.

Yes, there SEEMS to be something producing them, just like it SEEMS like there is some thing "producing" a dream. Is there any "effort" to "produce" a dream? Is there any planning or deciding about how a dream unfolds?

I'm checking on this thread every day to make sure that the same thing doesn't happen again Manuel :)

Hi, John
I wrote you but there must have been some faliure.

We are quite well, but my grandfather is having a bad time.
Thanks John

So then if you are not a person, what is it that is nervous?

It is a feeling in this body. Anxiety, a certain feeling in chest and stomach. I know that this is arising in this void, but I cant help this feeling of me and here, though it isnt in a particular place

Yes, absolutely no doubt that there is awareness of thoughts, and no doubt it's you that is aware of thoughts, but is this "you", that is aware of thoughts, a separate "something" in this?

I dont know what to say. i believe there is not separated something but A thought claiming that this is happening to it. But I cant go further.

In direct experience can you TRULY find a "subject" and an "object"?

i find it difficult to answer. I Ve been observing and I dont know what to say. I am observing a table in front of me. i see the table one metre far from here where I am. i understand there is a table and here Legs are seen and legs seem to be nearer than the table

Ok, let's look at choice then. Is there REALLY such a thing as choice

I think there is no choice. Apparent choices happen, but I still have the feeling that if I want to make a choice I have to examine carefully the situation, but who is doing that. All seems too much relTed to a conceptual understanding because my percepcion of the world is just the same.

[What is the 'location" then? Please answer ONLY from direct experiential evidence. Is there a "location", or is "location" just an idea?/quote] uff it seems There isa sense of here and there. I cant see it is only a idea, it seems very real. Location, distance...are present

John is there any kind of meditation which helps to see This? Or self enquire is enough?

Hi Manuel

It's taken me some time to reply because you are at an important stage of the enquiry and I wanted some advice from other guides before I replied.

Please remember to focus on the enquiry rather than on the result. In the course of the enquiry, the result will become self-evident.

I wrote you but there must have been some faliure.

We are quite well, but my grandfather is having a bad time.

I can understand that very well. I was the only person to take care of my grandmother for the first year after my grandfather died, and her pain was palpable. It was a very sad time for everyone.

Love and pain seem to be emotions that are very near to each other on the spectrum of emotions that show up in this "void".

So then if you are not a person, what is it that is nervous?

It is a feeling in this body. Anxiety, a certain feeling in chest and stomach. I know that this is arising in this void, but I cant help this feeling of me and here, though it isnt in a particular place

Is it ANYWHERE except in thought? Is there any reason to believe all thoughts? Is there ANY reason to believe thoughts that do not correlate with direct experiential evidence if you're not the thinker of them?

Yes, absolutely no doubt that there is awareness of thoughts, and no doubt it's you that is aware of thoughts, but is this "you", that is aware of thoughts, a separate "something" in this?

I dont know what to say. i believe there is not separated something but A thought claiming that this is happening to it. But I cant go further.

There is no further to go. The thought is there that there are just thoughts claiming that there is a something but, as you've discovered, there is nothing separate here that is aware of thoughts. There are just thoughts showing up in this.

In direct experience can you TRULY find a "subject" and an "object"?

i find it difficult to answer. I Ve been observing and I dont know what to say. I am observing a table in front of me. i see the table one metre far from here where I am. i understand there is a table and here Legs are seen and legs seem to be nearer than the table

"Distance" and "location" are thought stories about direct experience.

We've gone through the idea of separate things earlier in the conversation, and you seemed to see that there was no separation, but perhaps you need some exercises to check this for yourself. I consulted with other guides about some meditations or exercises, and they recommened the following two exercises:

Here is the first:
it is a habitual mental reference point that causes the illusion.
Take an object like a glass and sit it in front of you within arms reach.
Look at it and as you do notice how the mind says glass (labels it).
Now look at its' various attributes. Notice how labeling occurs. (shiny, round, etc)
Now close your eyes and notice the image/impression of it in your mind. It may be a residual visual image or something else. Just notice it. The attributes may change slightly. Just notice.
Now open eyes and keep looking at it and wait for the mind to stop doing this. Notice how difficult it is to just see 'something'. Keep looking and it will happen.
When this happens, notice how there is just seeing. No You looking or glass being seen.
Notice when mind inserts itself into the seeing, and once again it becomes the see-er and the seen.
Without mind there is only seeing.
Try this with eyes closed and use the sense of touch. Follow a similar routine and notice where mind changes everything from touching to labels of something (seemingly) separate.

And here is the second.
John it seems he cannot get past his conceptual understanding of how he sees reality.
Sit with your eyes closed and just be aware of the constant shifting Experiencing... And try to find whether there is a separate experiencer of that. You can try it with eyes closed... With feeling-sensations. Then with sounds. Then with eyes open.... Just try to see the difference between raw experiential data/experience and conceptual labelling-of.

Once you can get in to that raw experiencing, then it will be easy for you to see how simple Experience is, and how it gets divided when thought comes in later. So you can drop labels such as here and there, and realize its just vision + thought, etc.

Please try out these exercises and let me know how they go.

Ok, let's look at choice then. Is there REALLY such a thing as choice

I think there is no choice. Apparent choices happen, but I still have the feeling that if I want to make a choice I have to examine carefully the situation, but who is doing that. All seems too much relTed to a conceptual understanding because my percepcion of the world is just the same.

Ok well then forget about anything intellectual. Just do the tests about free will that I offered you earlier. Check VERY carefully with direct experiential evidence, and see whether there is a choice or a chooser. Please re-read my post on free will and the tea/coffee scenario.

Options pop up in thought, and another thought says "I" will choose this, but there was no thinker of those thoughts, and no "I", so how could there be a chooser of the option?

What is the 'location" then? Please answer ONLY from direct experiential evidence. Is there a "location", or is "location" just an idea?

uff it seems There is a sense of here and there. I cant see it is only a idea, it seems very real. Location, distance...are present

Do those exercises that the other guides have suggested and then please tell me whether "location" and "separation" are just ideas or not.

Hi John
I really appreciate your effort.
i ve just retunn home frrom a trip with my students.
i ll do the exercises you suggest me and Ill write you.
Thank you very much

Hi, John

I ve been doing the exercises. I am afraid I didnt understand very well the first one, but I did it anyway. i dont know what to tell you except that once I experienced more vividly that the I was in the thought and without thoughts the I would desapear. it was as if I were space with a little me floating around, but I cannot express it in English. That eeling dessapeared an hour later, and I couldnt bring it back again. I think I can feel that sensation of spaceness better while I am walking. Things come to me and dissapear in this space.
I realize it is very difficult to observe something without thoughts and memories and mental images sneaking around. it is impossible for me to see the tree in a fresh way. it all seems known and seen. I do not experience the awe of seeing things for the first time, though while I am writting this I realize this is another thought called "things as they should be"
I try to sink withing this space in every moment but most of the times the I is here very present and strong. In special moments that me seems to become more little and weak.
I keep doing the exercises and trying to observe without thoughts.

Hi Manuel

Sorry about the slow reply. I have had a bit of a writer's block, because I'm unsure what is preventing you from "letting go" of Manuel. It seems that it's quite clear to you that there is no "I", and that Manuel is just something that shows up in this "space", but you don't seem to accept that you are not Manuel.

You are the self-aware "space" that Manuel, and everything else, shows up in.

I've again asked advice from the guide who offered the exercises that helped you the most last time, and I'm basing most of what I say here on his advice.

Because I have taken so long to get back to you please stop reading this post after this sentence, and re-read my last three replies to you, and your responses, before you carry on reading this post.

I ve been doing the exercises. I am afraid I didnt understand very well the first one, but I did it anyway. i dont know what to tell you except that once I experienced more vividly that the I was in the thought and without thoughts the I would desapear. it was as if I were space with a little me floating around, but I cannot express it in English.

I know what you mean in that description, and it's a very good description. I had the same experience once, but at the time I couldn't describe it as well as you have now.

It is the experience of knowing that you are not the body, or the thoughts, and that they are just stuff showing up in you, but at the same time thoughts are saying: "But what about me? What about the person called Manuel? What happens to Manuel? I am Manuel, and if Manuel dies I die."

Am I right?

But there was never was an "I" that was Manuel, and you have discovered that very clearly. What you are can not die because you are "this" in which thoughts, and sensations, and emotions, and Manuel and others, and even time and space, show up. You ALONE are what this whole show is.

"This universe" is one undivided whole, which is aware of itself, and you ALONE are the awareness of this self-aware universe. The only thoughts or experiences that show up anywhere show up in you alone.

Thought says that this is impossible, but thought also says that there is an "I".

Do you see that this "space" in which Manuel was appearing is the same space in which EVERYTHING else also shows up? Do you see that you are this whole "space", and that you're not the "I" or Manuel, that thought says you are?

That feeling dissapeared an hour later, and I couldnt bring it back again.

The feeling isn't important. The feeling is only a consequence of the seeing. You saw that you were the "space", and the result was a falling away of the idea that you were a "person", and the sense of freedom and peace appeared when the idea of an I in this disappeared.

When the "I" disappears there is only "this", and "this" is always free, and at peace.

I think I can feel that sensation of spaceness better while I am walking. Things come to me and dissapear in this space.

That is how it ALWAYS is. Things appear and disappear in this that you are. Can you see that it has always been this way?

Nothing has changed, apart from the "I" thought being seen to be an illusion in this that you are.

I realize it is very difficult to observe something without thoughts and memories and mental images sneaking around. it is impossible for me to see the tree in a fresh way. it all seems known and seen.

Of course it is known and seen. That is because you are all that is here to know and see anything.

I do not experience the awe of seeing things for the first time, though while I am writting this I realize this is another thought called "things as they should be"

Seeing things in a new way is seeing it with "fresh eyes".

When you realise that you are this, in which Manuel and the rest of the universe shows up in, it's natural to see all of this in a new light.

To see that you are the light that in which these things appear, is to see everything in a new light.

I try to sink withing this space in every moment but most of the times the I is here very present and strong. In special moments that me seems to become more little and weak.
I keep doing the exercises and trying to observe without thoughts.

Take a look at this "I" that is trying to sink into this "space" and tell me what you find. Isn't it just another thought showing up in this space?

Does this "space" need to sink into anything?

Is there an "I" that needs to sink into this "space" that you are?

Isn't there space for ANYTHING that shows up? Check these questions carefully with direct experience please.

The guide who advised me gave me this specific advice about your last Three sentences:

"I try to sink withing this space in every moment but most of the times the I is here very present and strong. In special moments that me seems to become more little and weak.
I keep doing the exercises and trying to observe without thoughts."

get him to explain what this "I" that is present is in his present moment experience.
is the "I" a thought?
is the "I" a sensation... a combination of the two?

instead of trying to get to a state of 'no I', ask him to experience and identify what this 'me' or 'I' is that seems to come in.