Nezinau

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas :)
Yes, I think you see that meaning/interpretation of DE is added by thought. So let’s take the next step.
The next time there is an emotional reaction with another person, look at one real example.
For example, thought may say: “she is angry with me” / “he does not respect me” / “they are judging me” / “she should understand me”. At that moment, what is actually present in direct experience? What is seen? What is heard? What sensation is present?
Then look at the interpretation.
Is “she is angry with me” directly seen or heard? Does sound contain anger or is it just sound? There are also facial movement, sensations … do they contain anger or are they simply seeing and feeling?
Can the other person’s intention be directly experienced?
Can their opinion of “you” be directly experienced?
Can “they are judging me” be found outside thought?
Stay with one real interaction and separate what was actually seen/heard/felt from what thought said it meant.

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali :)

Thanks for getting back. Just wanted to share that after our last conversation , I had a shift , by shift. I mean I started seeing very clearly mechanics of guilt and other thought processes when they rise.... Just wanted to share that the mechanics seems automatically clearer where the mind starts interpretation... The daily life became less with the attachment to the thought outcome and other things .... Just making things without resistance to process and outcome.

For example, thought may say: “she is angry with me” / “he does not respect me” / “they are judging me” / “she should understand me”. At that moment, what is actually present in direct experience? What is seen? What is heard? What sensation is present?

Sensations + thought ... Actualy experienced sound , seen colors , Sensation in the body in stomach.


Then look at the interpretation.

Is “she is angry with me” directly seen or heard? Does sound contain anger or is it just sound? There are also facial movement, sensations … do they contain anger or are they simply seeing and feeling?

They are simply seeing

Can the other person’s intention be directly experienced?

no

Can their opinion of “you” be directly experienced?

no

Can “they are judging me” be found outside thought?

no

Stay with one real interaction and separate what was actually seen/heard/felt from what thought said it meant.

I was chatting with my colleague and he was pushing me to call one of pour partners ,,, The thought came he is micromanaging me , I decide what to do and so on ... the sensations in the stomach ..... What was actually seen is text in he chat programs , felt sensations and mental images + thought ....

Thanks Rali - one more time ....

Vytas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas :)
Good. In the colleague example there was text (aka colour/seeing), sensation, and then the thought story: “he is micromanaging me”, “I decide what to do”. Neither the controller “him” nor the controlled “me” was found outside that story. Just check...
What exactly was being threatened? Was there an actual “me” being controlled?
Or did thought create both sides: “him” the controller and “me” the one being controlled?
Then look at: “I decide what to do.”
Is that directly experienced? Or is that another thought defending the idea of control?
Stay with the stomach sensation for a moment.
Does that sensation say: “he is controlling me”?
Does it say: “I must defend myself”?

I think that is enough on “others” for now, but keep on noticing when “difficult” situations arise.
Let’s look at the other area you mentioned: “awakening”, “going deeper”, “getting back to understanding”, “getting back to bliss”, “the one who knows”, “the teacher”…
When one of these appears during the day, stop and look.
What is actually present? Is there a sensation?
A thought about a better future state?
A memory of how things felt before?
Can the one who needs to “go deeper” actually be found?
Is anything missing before thought says something is missing?
And when thought says: “I understand this”, “I can explain it to others”, “I know what they should do”, can a knower or teacher be found anywhere outside that thought?
Please use one fresh example when the seeker or teacher shows up in daily life.

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali :)

Good. In the colleague example there was text (aka colour/seeing), sensation, and then the thought story: “he is micromanaging me”, “I decide what to do”. Neither the controller “him” nor the controlled “me” was found outside that story. Just check...
What exactly was being threatened? Was there an actual “me” being controlled?

No - thought about me

Or did thought create both sides: “him” the controller and “me” the one being controlled?

Yes both sides created by thought

Then look at: “I decide what to do.”
Is that directly experienced? Or is that another thought defending the idea of control?

another thought defending the control.

Stay with the stomach sensation for a moment.
Does that sensation say: “he is controlling me”?

No

Does it say: “I must defend myself”?

No

I think that is enough on “others” for now, but keep on noticing when “difficult” situations arise.
Let’s look at the other area you mentioned: “awakening”, “going deeper”, “getting back to understanding”, “getting back to bliss”, “the one who knows”, “the teacher”…

When one of these appears during the day, stop and look.
What is actually present? Is there a sensation?

Yes

A thought about a better future state?

YEs

A memory of how things felt before?

Yes

Can the one who needs to “go deeper” actually be found?

No

Is anything missing before thought says something is missing?

No

And when thought says: “I understand this”, “I can explain it to others”, “I know what they should do”, can a knower or teacher be found anywhere outside that thought?

no

Please use one fresh example when the seeker or teacher shows up in daily life.

Yesterday in the evening , I was sitting , the sensation appeared , the thought appeared I should feel the present moment , The thought I have to get back to listening to youtube to know some more knowledge to be guided in this moment. Its mostly the sensation then , the thought I should feel not like this ....

Other example - when I met a friend , was talking with him and started telling what I understand , and how sensation works , about the present moment and so on . When you meet some one The thought rise , I need to sahre with him , The thought I undersatnd how it works he not , The thought I must tell him .....

Best regards ,
Vytas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas :)
Good. These are two very clear examples.
First the seeker: “I should feel the present moment.” , “I should not feel like this.”, “I need more knowledge/guidance.”
Look at the sensation before those thoughts appear.
Is there anything wrong with the sensation itself?
Does it say: “this is not present enough”? “This needs to change”?
Or does thought compare what is here with a remembered or imagined better state?
Without that comparison, is there actually anything to get back to?

Now the teacher: “I understand.” “He doesn’t.” “I need to tell him.”
Look carefully.
Can the one who “understands” be found?
Can the one who “doesn’t understand” be found? Are there two selves here?
Or are there simply two streams of thought, two chains or patterns appearing—one closer to direct experience (also familiar) and the other less so? Where is the interpretation of both – “over there” or…? Where is the meaning generated?
In DE there are sounds, colours and sensations…
Is there an actual difference in direct experience called “I know more than him”?
Or is that whole hierarchy created in thought?
And most importantly… Before the thought “I need to share this” appears, is anything missing?
Also… Does sharing happen naturally? Or is there a thought trying to confirm or strengthen the identity of “the one who knows”/ “the enlightened one”?
Furthermore, look at “guiding” itself. If guiding or sharing is going to happen, can it simply happen when the conditions are there?
Does guiding require a separate “teacher” to exist?
Can words be spoken, questions asked, and something useful shared without anyone becoming “the one who knows”?
Maybe guiding happens when it happens — just like everything else. The function does not require an identity around it.
Just notice these two patterns when they appear. No need to stop them. Only see what is actually present, and what thought adds.

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali :)

First the seeker: “I should feel the present moment.” , “I should not feel like this.”, “I need more knowledge/guidance.”
Look at the sensation before those thoughts appear.

Is there anything wrong with the sensation itself?

no

Does it say: “this is not present enough”? “This needs to change”?

The sensation doesn't tell anything - only thought

Or does thought compare what is here with a remembered or imagined better state?

yes

Without that comparison, is there actually anything to get back to?

no

Now the teacher: “I understand.” “He doesn’t.” “I need to tell him.”
Look carefully.
Can the one who “understands” be found?

no

Can the one who “doesn’t understand” be found? Are there two selves here?

no - its thought i understand , the other thought is he doesn't understand

Or are there simply two streams of thought, two chains or patterns appearing—one closer to direct experience (also familiar) and the other less so? Where is the interpretation of both – “over there” or…? Where is the meaning generated?

So its the thought - i understand with the thought i know , with thought i have experienced. and other thought i know he didn't, with other thought I know and the other thought he doesn't . And separate thoughts this is me this is him
Its all the structure of thoughts startin from the thought I

In DE there are sounds, colours and sensations…
Is there an actual difference in direct experience called “I know more than him”?

Or is that whole hierarchy created in thought?

It's all hierarchy of thoughts combining thought on thought with thoughts describing me and other person also a thought.

And most importantly… Before the thought “I need to share this” appears, is anything missing?

no

Also… Does sharing happen naturally? Or is there a thought trying to confirm or strengthen the identity of “the one who knows”/ “the enlightened one”?

a thought trying to confirm or strengthen the identity

Furthermore, look at “guiding” itself. If guiding or sharing is going to happen, can it simply happen when the conditions are there?

yes

Does guiding require a separate “teacher” to exist?

no

Can words be spoken, questions asked, and something useful shared without anyone becoming “the one who knows”?

yes

Have a good day ...
Vytas

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali ,

Are we moving with the inquiry ?

Vytas

[poppyseed]

Hi Vytas :)

We’ve looked at this from many angles now. Before we move on, I want to check a few remaining points. Please don’t answer from what you think should be true. Use recent examples from everyday life.

Awakening expectations
Is there still any expectation that awakening should mean: more bliss, more silence, fewer thoughts, less emotion, permanent clarity, certainty, or some final unmistakable shift?
When the thought “I should be further” appears, what is actually missing before that thought?

No control / helplessness
When it is seen that no separate controller can be found, does any fear appear that: “then I am helpless”, “nothing can be done” ...
If that appears, what is actually present?
Is helplessness found in DE, or is it another thought-story?

Intention
When an intention appears — for example: “I will call someone”, “I will finish this task”...
Did you create the intention?
Can the thinker be found?
Does intention control what happens next?
Or is intention itself just another commentary appearing?

Seeking
During the day, does anything still feel like: “I need another shift”/ “I need to understand more”...
If yes, what is the seeker in direct experience?
Can the one who needs to arrive be found?

Practical life
Does seeing no separate self remove: learning, planning, apologising, correcting mistakes, caring for others, work, responsibility?
Or do these still happen without a separate controller?
Please give one or two real examples.

And finally:
Is there anything left that still feels like “me” in a way that has not been clearly looked at?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Love
Rali

[Vytas2222]

Hey Rali :)

Awakening expectations
Is there still any expectation that awakening should mean: more bliss, more silence, fewer thoughts, less emotion, permanent clarity, certainty, or some final unmistakable shift?

I don't know what enlightenment is, honestly. Seeing the way it is is already being enlightened. I don't hope for anything else at the moment. Maybe there's a hope to see things the way they really are. I'm tired of seeking anything. I like the way it is.

When the thought “I should be further” appears, what is actually missing before that thought?

I'm tired, lying down, and the thought says I should be working. It's a thought that something is missing this exact moment — that I'm not doing what the thought says I should do. But I'm still lying here doing the inquiry.
Nothing is missing , just its a sensation then the thought , I don't like the sensation i whabt to be different , i need to be at the moment ... so its thought on thought

No control / helplessness
When it is seen that no separate controller can be found, does any fear appear that: “then I am helpless”, “nothing can be done” ...

Regarding the controler - From my perspective what I see at the moment is no. But maybe somewhere deep inside I still believe there is control. I don't know. , Its also a thought

If that appears, what is actually present? Is helplessness found in DE, or is it another thought-story?

I had both those thoughts some time ago and understood it's total bullshit — both thoughts stop you from acting. But answering your question yes they are thoughts.

Intention

When an intention appears — for example: “I will call someone”, “I will finish this task”...
Did you create the intention?

With physical things I see it — the intention just comes and you do it. With planned things like calling someone, the mind tricks you. I understand the mechanics but I can't see it that directly. I'd be lying if I said I see it a hundred percent. I've seen it in some situations, but something deep inside still holds it.

Can the thinker be found?

Thoughts just come on their own, and then another thought on top: "I thought it." They come based on sensation, commentating what's happening, and the commentary carries the small sense that I exist.

Does intention control what happens next?Or is intention itself just another commentary appearing?

The thought came, I'll go by bicycle to the city. Then I went outside, saw the clouds, and said no. Then I lay down and said in half an hour I'll cycle to the park. If it always went as the thought said, you'd be doing everything. It's impossible that what thought says is what gets done.

intention is another thought , and just a commentary

Seeking
During the day, does anything still feel like: “I need another shift”/ “I need to understand more”...

I'm reading Gateless Gatecrashers and wondering whether I've reached it or not. It's disturbing because I don't know what the result should be. I think maybe I've already reached it and it's just the mechanics showing something different. I'm confused, being honest.

If yes, what is the seeker in direct experience?

I can't find a sensation. Just a thought that something is not enough in this moment, which converts into "I have to reach some kind of state." When it rises, maybe there's a sensation you don't like and a push away from it — and then "there's enlightenment I haven't reached" gets laid over the top.

Can the one who needs to arrive be found?

no

Practical life
Does seeing no separate self remove: learning, planning, apologising, correcting mistakes, caring for others, work, responsibility?
Or do these still happen without a separate controller?
Please give one or two real examples.

All of it is done with bigger efficiency, quicker and better, because there's no "I" on top. There's no one to reach a goal, no one to be hurt, no one to be disappointed.

Example one. At work, with a to-do list: when you don't have attachment to the result, when there's no "I" in the task, you just go and do it, slowly and easily. Procrastination is one of the things "I" is involved in. The energy is lost not because the task is hard but because of the "I" involvement and the strategising.

Example two. I went to a friend when my wife expected me to stay. She was a bit sad. There was no guilt — I understood it doesn't matter to feel guilty just for feeling guilty. That's "I" saying I've done something bad. I apologised. Without the "I" involved it's a very different conversation with the person.

And finally:
Is there anything left that still feels like “me” in a way that has not been clearly looked at?

I don't feel anything that needs to be looked at at the moment.

Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

I can't say a hundred percent because "I" is involved in saying it. If I said "I know," it means this "I" knows — so it's incorporating him again. It is seen when it's looked at, but sometimes it slips away and it's not always seen in daily life. Have I seen it in action ten, twenty times? Yes, a hundred percent. Sometimes I feel it very clearly, sometimes not, and that's not based on my decision. Maybe it's normal that you can't see all the mechanics at once. Waiting for that would be like waiting for another bliss, like the satori I had. In my work "I" was always involved, always in panic about making mistakes or about the result, and now I'm doing things without attachment, even things that are unpleasant to do.

Is it clear the separate self doesn't exist? For me it's clear that it doesn't exist. There are two levels: it's clear in my mind that it doesn't exist because I've seen it, but it's not always felt like that.

Vytas :) thanks Rali .... for your time
Best regards