Running Home

[graceabounds]

Hi Erin,

I think I’ll need to continue being aware enough to see through old beliefs and habits when they arise.

Look at “I’ll need to.”

Is there actually an I that needs to maintain this practice?
Or is that another thought appearing, describing what supposedly needs to happen next?

Don’t fight that thought. Just see it. And notice what happens to the supposed project of “staying aware enough.” If awareness of the old pattern happens, it happens. If identification happens, that too can be seen afterward. There isn’t a separate entity who has to successfully manage the process.

Which brings me back to the beginning of this dialogue:

Every once in awhile I feel like the “I” drops away, but quickly reasserts itself. At LU I am looking for a guide who can help me finally drop the I.

Does the ‘I’ need to go anywhere? Do people need to stop talking about and dressing up as Santa Claus, or can it just be enough to know he’s not real?

:)
Becca

[Emac1122]

I had a slightly bigger ahha moment today. I’ve been thinking a lot about ‘my’ and how that word feels really sticky to me, how it links to ‘I’ and that there must be some autonomous controller. I was thinking about the mirror exercises you had me do. I realized there is a lot of resistance and fear to letting go of something that makes decisions and controls actions. I think that is where all the “I’ll need too” comes from; still trying to fix…

Does the ‘I’ need to go anywhere? Do people need to stop talking about and dressing up as Santa Claus, or can it just be enough to know he’s not real?

It doesn’t need to go anywhere, but there has to be a realization - not just the thought that it’s an illusion.

[graceabounds]

Is an aha moment not a realization?

How are ‘my’ and ‘I’ different in the body?


The aim of the following exercise is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:
1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.
2. Count to 5.
3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:
Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

[Emac1122]

Is an aha moment not a realization?

Yes, definitely. Shifts in my perception where it is easier for me to see that there is no “I” running the show. It is really quite embedded that I. Even when I look for it I can’t find it.

How are ‘my’ and ‘I’ different in the body?

My arises as a sense of ownership, while sometimes I can feel the sensation of I in my body. It feels separate from my body- they are not the same thing. Neither My nor I have the same kind of solid feel they use to have. I recognize there is not “i” seeing, just seeing, hearing, etc.

, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

Yes, I feel like I chose the qualities, based on my knowledge of each drink (water and wine). Some preference manifested, but I don’t feel like a consciously choose it; they seemed to pop up by themselves.

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting? Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

I intentionally tried to clear my mind and just focus on the numbers, so the preferences took a back seat to the numbers. I wanted to clear my mind, because I didn’t want any bias to affect what I selected. In hind site that seems pretty funny - me trying to trick me. LOL

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

It was funny although I felt like I wanted the wine, I drank the water. It was a feeling, there was no intention behind the selection. No one directing the action. It seemed like an impulse. I’m not sure I’ve noticed this function in action. I more often feel like I’m arguing with myself when choices are being made and can often regret my final decision. Sometimes I use my intuition, often I compare and contrast pros and cons, but I’ve never found make decisions easy. This exercise, I think, will help. I think I’ll try to be less logical and more intuitive. In the end of course, I drank both the water and wine. I could see myself arguing for the water then wine then back, but when I reached out I took the water. Funny really. I did not feel like the chooser.

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to ‘choose’?

I did not feel like I did the choosing. In fact, I felt like regardless of my logical choose, I just intuitively picked one. It didn’t really matter what “I” was thinking about either one. I’ll be repeating this experiment. I’ve read we say we pick things based on logic, but actually based on how we feel. This supported that theory. It’s hard to let go of the idea of a controller.

[graceabounds]

Could you point to where I is in the body? Does it feel like it has a center or location or is it more of a mental image?

Shifts in my perception where it is easier for me to see that there is no “I” running the show. It is really quite embedded that I. Even when I look for it I can’t find it.

Embedded where?
Is it real or a fantasy?

No one directing the action. It seemed like an impulse. I’m not sure I’ve noticed this function in action. I more often feel like I’m arguing with myself when choices are being made and can often regret my final decision.

Great, keep noticing the commentary before and after a ‘choice’.
Do the voices have any impact on the outcome? Are they ever satisfied? Who is at the center of regret?

It’s hard to let go of the idea of a controller.

:) Is it ever anything more than a thought?

[Emac1122]

Could you point to where I is in the body? Does it feel like it has a center or location or is it more of a mental image?

I is generally felt behind the eyes, but sometimes it is a pervasive "heaviness" in my body. I'm starting to see the link between the idea of "I" and those feelings and sensations, but it still feels real. It is a strange disconnect between knowing there is no I, but sensing the "I".

Embedded where?
Is it real or a fantasy?

It is a fantasy, but the sensations of an "I" are there. I notice it more and more now. It is interesting how pervasive it is. When I say it is embedded, it's because it still seem so solid. But I do have a different relationship with it than I did at the beginning of this discussion. I do see that these feelings, though sometimes they are very difficult to tease out into individuals parts are sensations and not a solid "I". Sometimes it very much feels like a solid or dense thing. When I say it is embedded and it is that sensation of density that I'm referring to. When I try to look deeply into that sensation I often feel a bit stuck, like there is nothing else beyond that to look at or see, just this kind of density. I'm starting to suspect that maybe that is the ground of being, which holds that sensation of "I".

Do the voices have any impact on the outcome? Are they ever satisfied? Who is at the center of regret?

The voices often have an impact on the outcome. I sometimes can't see clearly through all the chatter in my head to find that inner voice and make what I perceive of as being "the right choice." Is there a right choice though? I'm not sure anymore. The regret arises when the "I" decides it was the wrong or a bad choice. I'm starting to wonder if that's possible. Do we always end up selecting just what ultimately moves of regardless of all the voinces and whatever that looks like ultimately just is the choice right or wrong? If we arent' the controller and the voices aren't me and everthing is just a result of causes and conditions and the effect is that there is no choice ultimately. Am I seeing this correctly?

:) Is it ever anything more than a thought?

No, it isn't anything other than a thought. Thoughts arise. I'm starting to see that there is a space in which they arise. I don't always act on those thoughts, though often I feel compelled to. What is the difference? What compels action when there is no controller, just causes and conditions? Hmmm.

[graceabounds]

I is generally felt behind the eyes, but sometimes it is a pervasive "heaviness" in my body.

Lets get more specific.

Find a comfortable place to sit or lie. Take in a few deep breaths to settle the dust and then relax for a bit. Spend only 30 to 60 seconds on each component of this exercise.

Bring your awareness to your entire body - sense it fully, head to toe.
Run your hands down over your torso. Feel the solidity of it.
Now bring your awareness to your feet. Again, feel them. Move them a bit.
Then bring your awareness to your hands. Open and close them.
Bring your awareness to your face - all of it. Touch it with your hand.

Now point your index finger to where "Erin" is located.
Touch the exact location of "Erin".

Answer these questions:
Were you able to find and feel "Erin" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Erin” (If any)?

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

I'm starting to suspect that maybe that is the ground of being, which holds that sensation of "I".

What is ground of being? A concept to replace I with something else?

Do we always end up selecting just what ultimately moves of regardless of all the voinces and whatever that looks like ultimately just is the choice right or wrong?

Who is this ‘we’ that does the selecting? Who is asking? Take a look…

Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

[Emac1122]

Were you able to find and feel "Erin" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?
Where is it?
What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?
What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "Erin” (If any)?

No, I could not feel "Erin" in any direct way like I could feel the other parts of my body. There is no physical piece that is "me" or "Erin". Now, I don't know I can't really find any specific location or sensation. What seems to happen is I have sensations and then the thought "I" arises. This idea and these sensations arise, but I'm more likely to see the connection between those and the thought "me" or "I". I can't find any sensations that are "Erin" right now. I see that those sensations are just sensations and how quickly I label them me.

Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

I could feel my toes moving and my hands opening and closing. I could physically feel my face, but when I went to point to "Erin" there was nothing there.

What is ground of being? A concept to replace I with something else?

LOL I have no idea it was a guess, cuz I can't seem to see beyond this "I". When I feel a sensation that I identify as "I" and try to look sometimes it seems to go to nothing. I wonder is it just my mind unwilling to look or see further?

Who is this ‘we’ that does the selecting? Who is asking? Take a look…

That's the illusion. I think it is 'me', but it is not. There is a choice and then movement to choose. What about people that make really bad choices like hurting others or who make bad choices? Not all choices seem wise.

Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?
No I did not know what number would appear. The number just pops into my head. It doesn't take long and there desn't seem to be a debate going on in my head like there sometimes is when I make a decision.

[graceabounds]

When I feel a sensation that I identify as "I" and try to look sometimes it seems to go to nothing. I wonder is it just my mind unwilling to look or see further?

This is where I want you to become extremely literal.
When the sensation seems to go to nothing, what exactly happens?

Does the sensation:
* become less intense?
* spread out?
* disappear?
* become difficult to locate?
* leave only space/blankness?
* get replaced by another sensation?
* get interrupted by thought?

What are you expecting to find “further”?

Don’t put another concept in the empty chair. Just leave the chair empty. :)

What seems to happen is I have sensations and then the thought "I" arises.

Yes, that is the sequence.

The number just pops into my head. It doesn't take long and there desn't seem to be a debate going on in my head like there sometimes is when I make a decision.

Now does the debate affect the outcome? Go back to the drink exercise from a couple of posts ago. What you called an impulse. Was that owned? Predictable? Have anything to do with the debate?

That's the illusion. I think it is 'me', but it is not. There is a choice and then movement to choose. What about people that make really bad choices like hurting others or who make bad choices? Not all choices seem wise.

The fact that a choice is unwise doesn’t require a separate “bad chooser” to exist. And conversely, a wise choice doesn’t require a separate “good chooser.”

Think of a time when you made a genuinely unwise choice. Don’t analyze why, just bring the memory up.

Did the choice appear first as a completely free act of an independent “you”? Or did there already seem to be conditions present (emotion, preference, memory, pressure, desire, fear, habit etc) and then the thought “I choose this” appeared along with the action?

Can you find, in the actual experience right now, the exact point where an independent “me” enters and takes ownership of all those conditions?

[Emac1122]

When the sensation seems to go to nothing, what exactly happens?

It becomes less intense then kinda fades to nothing and is difficult to find. At that point thoughts come up along the lines of "where is I," " what is that?" "how do I see that it is an illusion?"etc. Now that you bring my attention to the specifics - there is nothing there that is what I see.

What are you expecting to find “further”?

I'm not sure. I guess I'm expecting to find some sensation that I think is the "I" or I identify as the I. I'm not sure what I'm expecting specifically, I'm searching for that 'I", however it appears.

Don’t put another concept in the empty chair. Just leave the chair empty. :)

That's right! That's what I'm doing. If that isn't the I - my thoughts say then what is it? It wants to catagorize it, label it. Yes, of course, I just need to leave it and not try to label it or figure it out! Thank you!

Now does the debate affect the outcome? Go back to the drink exercise from a couple of posts ago. What you called an impulse. Was that owned? Predictable? Have anything to do with the debate?

The fact that a choice is unwise doesn’t require a separate “bad chooser” to exist. And conversely, a wise choice doesn’t require a separate “good chooser.”

There is a part of me that wants the choice coming from a place without a "chooser" that isn't affected by habit, fear, pressure, memory, preference etc to be a better choice thab the one with the condions. But, you answered my question. Our choices can come from a place where there is no "chooser," but can still be affected by conditions such as memory, pressue, fear, habit, etc.

Think of a time when you made a genuinely unwise choice. Don’t analyze why, just bring the memory up.
Did the choice appear first as a completely free act of an independent “you”? Or did there already seem to be conditions present (emotion, preference, memory, pressure, desire, fear, habit etc) and then the thought “I choose this” appeared along with the action?

The choice at the time did appear to be a completely free act of an independent "me." However, now I see all the conditioning, fear, pressure, emotion that drove the decision and action. I have no conscious memory of the "I choose this" appearing. I assume that's what happened because I see it now. I am better at seeing the choice the thought "I want" or "I choose" this or that. But there is also a pause a moment where I see the movement to choose without the "I". It's often just automatic, but if I slow down and observe I see it. That's the thing isn't it. "I" is a label attached to everything our feelings, thoughts, actions. It's there, but it is a label.

Can you find, in the actual experience right now, the exact point where an independent “me” enters and takes ownership of all those conditions?

It is after the choice has been made. It is always after. I can debate and see how my thoughts, preferences, emotions can influence the choice, but the "I" gets added after the choice is made then says "I chose."

Thank you for all this. I'm grateful for your time and effort. It is helping. I'm noticing a shift, more awareness.

[graceabounds]

Very good.

Thank you for all this. I'm grateful for your time and effort. It is helping. I'm noticing a shift, more awareness.

Could you tell me more about what is being noticed in everyday life?

[Emac1122]

Could you tell me more about what is being noticed in everyday life?

A few things that come to mind are that throughout the day when thoughts or feelings come up that I previously identified as "I" I am more likely to separate out the feelings from the label and just be aware of the feeling and observe the thoughts.
I'm more likely to directly observe things happening around me such as leaves blowing in the wind, birds singing, the sun shining through flowers. I feel present in these observations not as if I'm seeing through a filter.
I feel more present in my life in general. I've noticed I'm more patient, listen more, and not so quick to argue, interject my thoughts or feelings. It's not that I don't care, but rather that there seems to be less ego involved when I'm interacting with other people. I often feel less stress about saying the right thing or making a certain impression.
I feel less anxiety about controlling how things go or ensuring the "best outcome."

It is not like this all of the time. Sometimes I'm lost in thought, I don't listen, get angry, but I'm more likely to be aware of this . It's not roses all the time, but I often don't react the same or more with curiosity. There is a space within me that feels calm and I feel able to tune into that easier than I use to. My thoughts slow down and I feel more aware.
These are some of the things I've notice.

[graceabounds]

Very good. I would certainly prescribe more time in nature… :)

Let’s investigate here for a moment:

There is a space within me that feels calm and I feel able to tune into that easier than I use to.

Can you find this “space within me” as something actually present in direct experience?

Take a look. What is actually there?

Perhaps warmth, pressure, openness, vibration, sound, visual experience, thought? What is noticed?

Where exactly is the within? Can you find a boundary separating this calm space from something that is outside it?


When anger appears, where does the separate “me” go?

[Emac1122]

Can you find this “space within me” as something actually present in direct experience? Take a look. What is actually there?
Perhaps warmth, pressure, openness, vibration, sound, visual experience, thought? What is noticed?

I’m not quite sure what you mean by direct experience? I think yes that I can. It is a sense of openness and acceptance. Thoughts are there, but I don’t get lost there. I notice them, but I mostly just feel present in the moment.

Where exactly is the within? Can you find a boundary separating this calm space from something that is outside it?

When I look within my attention moves to what I think of as inside only because I drop my attention from external stimuli like sound or visuals. But you are right there is no boundary and in fact that space can expand to include everything. Hmm now I’m not sure what this is. I feel like I have to tune into it, but I feel like it is always present even when I’m not specifically looking for it.

When anger appears, where does the separate “me” go?

I see that I feel anger, mostly heat and thoughts that trigger more thoughts and emotions and sensations. But I am quicker to see the label “I am” and just letting it all be there rather than pushing the feelings or thoughts away or asking “who is having this feeling.” I’m trying to just recognize all the thoughts, feelings with the knowledge that there is no “me” feeling angry. There is no separate me, so it doesn’t go anywhere.

[graceabounds]

There is no separate me, so it doesn’t go anywhere.

<3
:)

I’m not quite sure what you mean by direct experience?

Direct Experience is:
Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

When I look within my attention moves to what I think of as inside only because I drop my attention from external stimuli like sound or visuals. But you are right there is no boundary and in fact that space can expand to include everything. Hmm now I’m not sure what this is. I feel like I have to tune into it, but I feel like it is always present even when I’m not specifically looking for it.

Is there any one who comes and goes? Who is in control of attention or 'tuning in'?
How is attention known in direct experience?