Help me to enlighten

[Elad]

Will look at this. I really appreciate this as have felt really bad :(
You responded at a perfect time thank you so so much.
Nic xx

❤️

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic

I'm back from retreat and have read the posts over the last few weeks when Elad guided.

How is it going? Is seeing happening?

Love
Liam

[Veganmamma]

Hello!

So wonderful to have you both back as the system has been down and my ‘work’ lost a couple of times. Whewww so relieved to have you back so appreciative 🥰 You are both so kind and lovely and helpful x

Did you have a lovely time ?

Is seeing happening?

Sometimes - when I really look. However stupid thoughts overrun :(

Who went back? Who struggles?

There is no me that can be found. Thoughts Always telling me I won’t get it. I know I shouldn’t listen to them and observe them.

You identify as the one who "had it" and "lost it", but that "one" is a fiction. Look

When I really look I can see that this is the ‘I’. Forget how to rise above, observe it …

You cant see anything. You will never get this. You don't exist.

Thoughts and sensations mainly. Have to remember to look to do this.

Don't make a concept of a path (I need to do this that more more more time time time me me me). Just another way story of self is maintained.

Yes I get this. Try to cram more in, videos, read bits of books in the hope that I’ll ‘get it’. So … need to LOOK more here then..?

What you? No you. Just one weather, then another weather.

The stormy thoughts / weather feels horrible. Remember that it all will pass as the nice weather does too.

Look at the clinging to the story of "you succeeding in doing what you are supposed to or not doing it, failing". It doesn't exist. Look!

Yes this must be all stories :(

And what is clear? That there is a self or that there isn't?

When I look find only sensations and thoughts. Feel a bit lighter in that actions happen, body moves, I don’t keep tapping my arm now as I know there isn’t a ‘me’.

Be precise. Find out what is true and express it clearly.

Got stuck on this earlier and lost my work! So … life happens, less pressure, movement happens, still get entangled with thoughts.

Thank you so so much

Nic xxx

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic!

The retreat was lovely, and I’m also glad to be back.

Thoughts Always telling me I won’t get it.

Sounds like a stream of negativity about “you.” These are stories.
“I won’t get it” is a story about the future. Can you find the future in DE? How about the past? Can you find it in DE? What does this mean about a past or future “you”?

Notice that whatever emotions and moods arise tend to feel permanent and get projected back onto the past and forward onto the future. When a painful emotion arises, it’s not hard to find lots of memories that support the story about a continuous self that has always felt bad.

Try meditating for 15 to 30 minutes, or however long you can meditate. When a thought arises, try to catch it as soon as you can. What is the thought made of?

If it’s a voice (made of sounds), try replaying the audio at a very slow speed. See how much you can slow it down. What are sounds made of? Compare sounds in memory to hearing in DE. Try this throughout the day, especially with negative thoughts, and let me know how it goes.

If there are visual elements, try zeroing in on the colors. Can you magnify the image? Blur the image? What happens? Compare to DE.

Another exercise you can do while meditating is notice the sensations on your face, on various parts of your head and inside your head. Allow your attention to go toward whatever sensation stands out, and follow that movement of attention. What is observing the sensations? Can you locate an observer in DE?

When you look for the observer, it may feel like another sensation (a sensation behind the eyes, for instance) is observing the previous sensation. Can a sensation observe another sensation? If you’re observing it, can it be you? If the sensation isn’t you, what’s observing that sensation? Repeat this exercise a lot throughout the day, whether or not you’re meditating.

If a sensation still feels like “you,” can you find where the sensation ends? Does it have any boundaries? Can you find any separation between what seems to be observing and what seems to be observed?

These exercises are meant to be repeated for as long as you need, so just let me know day by day how it’s going.

Love
Liam

[Veganmamma]

Hello lovely friend

I just signed in to check and you were there!

I’m so glad you had a nice time - and lovely to be home!

My notifications aren’t coming up on email. Never mind, at least I know and can check in now.

I’ll get on to my work ☺️

Thank youso much for your time and patience and knowledge.

Lots of love,

Nic x

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic

You're very welcome.

I'm not getting email notifications either. Hopefully whatever it is will be fixed.

A bit more on your last replies to Elad and me (4 Dec)...

Is seeing happening?

[Kaiho]

I'm having some trouble posting and just lost a lot of text. More later...

[Kaiho]

Hello again Nic,

More questions on your post from 4 Dec (your answers to Elad and me)--

Is seeing happening?

Sometimes - when I really look. However stupid thoughts overrun :(

Who went back? Who struggles?

There is no me that can be found. Thoughts Always telling me I won’t get it. I know I shouldn’t listen to them and observe them.

You identify as the one who "had it" and "lost it", but that "one" is a fiction. Look

When I really look I can see that this is the ‘I’. Forget how to rise above, observe it …

Can you see that there’s a story about a fictional “you” that “really needs to look,” “shouldn’t listen” to “thoughts always telling me I won’t get it,” and “forgets how to rise above, observe”?

What is the “I” that “really needs to look”?

What is the “I” that “shouldn’t listen”?

What is the “I” that forgets?

This is not about remembering how to return to a past state. Forget about previous experiences, and ask right now “What am I?”

Love
Liam

[Veganmamma]

Hi Liam

Same ! Yes the system seems to be playing up…!

. Can you find the future in DE? How about the past? Can you find it in DE? What does this mean about a past or future “you”?

The future or past me cannot be found only in thoughts. The raw seeing during DE makes the future and past thoughts more obsolete. A past or future me does not exist then, only in stories.

What is the thought made of?

This was tough ! Air! Or energy, fluff, nothingness!

Compare hearing in DE. Try this throughout the day, especially with negative thoughts, and let me know how it goes.

Will continue to try this. Sounds were more ‘external’ thoughts felt more personal, closer.

If there are visual elements, try zeroing in on the colors. Can you magnify the image? Blur the image? What happens? Compare to DE

Could make the image bigger and smaller, but really had to focus to do this. Thoughts do lose their intensity when zoned in to. DE feels more ‘real’ more crispy clear.

What is observing the sensations? Can you locate an observer in DE?

Sensations sort of fluctuate. No observer, clear knowing that the sensations lose intensity when doing DE.

Can a sensation observe another sensation? If you’re observing it, can it be you? If the sensation isn’t you, what’s observing the sensation?

Sensation cannot observe another sensation. Also bit difficult to do a few sensations at once. If I can observe it then it can’t be me! Awareness? Observing the sensation. Have to focus to do this, rather than think oh my lips are stinging or sensation of legs on blanket etc.

can you find where the sensation ends? Does it have any boundaries? Can you find any separation between what seems to be observing and what seems to be observed?

You have helped me before to go to ‘big awareness’ and sort of push the discomfort out… this can work.. it feels very different to focusing on the discomfort (ie heart pounding) solely… So there are no boundaries. No separation between observing and observed.

Can you see that there’s a story about a fictional “you” that “really needs to look,” “shouldn’t listen” to “thoughts always telling me I won’t get it,” and “forgets how to rise above, observe”?

Yes! Can see this… stories … and I try many times but can not find the me…

What is the “I” that “really needs to look”?

The I that really needs to look is a story keeping me bound. As I write this I know there is the power to not believe that story, to not stay ‘bound’ to a fictitious ‘I’. As I look now in DE I see the open, spacious awareness however hear ‘I’ see… Seeing happens, movement happens, colours, body, not ‘mine’.

What is the “I” that “shouldn’t listen”?

A message - a thought… no me, thoughts happen. Thoughts can’t really land when there is no one.

What is the “I” that forgets?

A thought ! Stories! More thoughts…

Nice to see this and realise this or the thoughts run away wit me. No me..!

What am I?

When I ask this with some definiteness it feels quite powerful. Forgetting past experience etc, like DE…

This… open, aware, vast, clear.

Perfect really.

Will continue to practice the observing thoughts and sounds etc.

Thank you so, so much for your time, patience, kindness xx

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic

I’ll start with the second half of your message.

Can you see that there’s a story about a fictional “you” that “really needs to look,” “shouldn’t listen” to “thoughts always telling me I won’t get it,” and “forgets how to rise above, observe”?

Yes! Can see this… stories … and I try many times but can not find the me…

Good

What is the “I” that “really needs to look”?

The I that really needs to look is a story keeping me bound.

What is the “me” that can be bound by a story? Where is it in DE?

As I write this I know there is the power to not believe that story, to not stay ‘bound’ to a fictitious ‘I’. As I look now in DE I see the open, spacious awareness however hear ‘I’ see… Seeing happens, movement happens, colours, body, not ‘mine’.

This is not a matter of power or effort. That's a story about how you need to exert more willpower to avoid "falling" into stories. What is the "I" that would have this power? Where is it? What is “open, spacious awareness” in DE?

What is the “I” that “shouldn’t listen”?

A message - a thought… no me, thoughts happen. Thoughts can’t really land when there is no one.

Good

What am I?

When I ask this with some definiteness it feels quite powerful. Forgetting past experience etc, like DE…

What I’m asking you to forget is you memories of what has happened in the past, not DE. When asking, “What am I?”, it’s important not to have expectations about how this question can transform you or take you back to a better state that you "got" then "lost." This is not about getting a new and improved “I.” It’s about seeing through the fiction of the “I” altogether. Understood?

The future or past me cannot be found only in thoughts. The raw seeing during DE makes the future and past thoughts more obsolete. A past or future me does not exist then, only in stories.

Given that neither a past me or a future me exists, what’s left of "me"? Does the present moment exist in DE?

What is the thought made of?

This was tough ! Air! Or energy, fluff, nothingness!

When you look for air, energy, fluff, and nothingness in DE, what do you find? Look for each one separately.

You could say that when we mistake thought for DE, the thought seems to be made mostly of seeing (colors) and hearing, sometimes feeling, smelling, or tasting.

Compare hearing in DE. Try this throughout the day, especially with negative thoughts, and let me know how it goes.

Will continue to try this. Sounds were more ‘external’ thoughts felt more personal, closer.

“Sounds were more ‘external’” to what? “Thoughts felt more personal, closer” to what? Where is the line between “external” and “internal”? Look in DE.

If there are visual elements, try zeroing in on the colors. Can you magnify the image? Blur the image? What happens? Compare to DE

Could make the image bigger and smaller, but really had to focus to do this. Thoughts do lose their intensity when zoned in to. DE feels more ‘real’ more crispy clear.

Yes, thoughts do lose their intensity when we zone in. You might find this practice helpful in dealing with some of the negative thoughts and stories. When you notice that you’re caught up in a story, try to deconstruct the thought, look at what it seems to be made of (seeing, hearing), and compare it to DE. Sometimes that “defuses” the thought—or at least makes it less interesting. If you’re still caught up in the content (thinking that the thought is about something real), try manipulating the thought in some way (magnifying it, slowing it down) until it becomes unrecognizable.

What is observing the sensations? Can you locate an observer in DE?

Sensations sort of fluctuate. No observer, clear knowing that the sensations lose intensity when doing DE.

What is the “clear knowing”? Where is it? What makes it different from an observer?

Can a sensation observe another sensation? If you’re observing it, can it be you? If the sensation isn’t you, what’s observing the sensation?

Sensation cannot observe another sensation. Also bit difficult to do a few sensations at once. If I can observe it then it can’t be me! Awareness? Observing the sensation. Have to focus to do this, rather than think oh my lips are stinging or sensation of legs on blanket etc.

This exercise involves a fair bit of concentration, but you don’t have to focus on two sensations at once. You can simply notice whatever sensation draws your attention, then ask, “What’s observing that sensation? Where’s the observer?” What is “awareness”? Can “awareness” be found in DE?

can you find where the sensation ends? Does it have any boundaries? Can you find any separation between what seems to be observing and what seems to be observed?

You have helped me before to go to ‘big awareness’ and sort of push the discomfort out… this can work.. it feels very different to focusing on the discomfort (ie heart pounding) solely… So there are no boundaries. No separation between observing and observed.

Good. This is not about me helping you go back into any particular state that you’ve been in before. This is about seeing.

Love
Liam

[Veganmamma]

Hello Liam ☺️

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

What is the “me” that can be bound by a story? Where is it in DE?

Just thoughts… so frustrating as when I go through DE I can see this is thoughts.

What is the "I" that would have this power? Where is it? What is “open, spacious awareness” in DE?

Looking now it seems all this is thoughts … the justification of ‘I’ can ‘see’ in DE (seeing happens etc etc), as well as the more obvuis thoughts being ‘I’ am bound by its story. Looks like it’s all a big story.

Open spacious awareness - oh my - thought story again ?

Understood

?

Yes I understand. There does seem to be an expectation of ‘something cool’ happening as the two experiences I had were pretty cool! I understand that it may be plain as you said. Often I’ll look and say ‘this is it’ but then of course blame thoughts!

Given that neither a past me or a future me exists, what’s left of "me"? Does the present moment exist in DE?

No me. Only presence / feelings of presence / me ness, Yes the present moment exists in DE as sounds, colours, sensations, emotions, thoughts.

When you look for air, energy, fluff, and nothingness in DE, what do you find? Look for each one separately.

Nothing! Literally nothing! But thoughts! In relation to the thoughts a sort of persistent hum drum of nonsense, worry, negativity, alarm in the background. When sitting in DE like now, focusing, such a minimal ‘worry thought pattern’.

“Sounds were more ‘external’” to what? “Thoughts felt more personal, closer” to what? Where is the line between “external” and “internal”? Look in DE.

No line between in and external, this was strange as had always seemed that ‘outside’ noises were external. Must be thoughts again, thinking that the noises outside were further away. It is all sounds happening in awareness. Thoughts are sounds or images.

- What did you mean by mistake thought for DE ? Isn’t thought in DE?

What is the “clear knowing”? Where is it? What makes it different from an observer?

Ooh I suppose this is observing then … must be the same. Means observing without labelling (or getting drawn into thought patterns) which means the observation is the truth - colours look ‘crisp’ and clear.

” What is “awareness”? Can “awareness” be found in DE?

This was tough! It is a ‘knowing’, a ‘clarity’ an empty, vast container full of life but also stillness. The contents (colours / shapes / movement) can found in DE.

Thank you for the thought tips - will be useful when they ‘run away with me’.

Honestly, thank you so much xx

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic

Very sorry about the delay. I've been checking the site daily and somehow missed your most recent reply.

There does seem to be an expectation of ‘something cool’ happening as the two experiences I had were pretty cool! I understand that it may be plain as you said.

It may be helpful to read "Liberation Unleased is Not..." again: https://www.liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Often I’ll look and say ‘this is it’ but then of course blame thoughts!

What do you mean by "blame thoughts"? Are you blaming thoughts for taking "you" away from seeing? What is this "you" that can be prevented from seeing?

Given that neither a past me or a future me exists, what’s left of "me"? Does the present moment exist in DE?

No me. Only presence / feelings of presence / me ness, Yes the present moment exists in DE as sounds, colours, sensations, emotions, thoughts.

How does the present moment exist in DE? How would it "exist in DE as sounds, colours..."? Can you point to where the present moment begins and ends in DE?

When you look for air, energy, fluff, and nothingness in DE, what do you find? Look for each one separately.

Nothing! Literally nothing! But thoughts! In relation to the thoughts a sort of persistent hum drum of nonsense, worry, negativity, alarm in the background. When sitting in DE like now, focusing, such a minimal ‘worry thought pattern’.

The “persistent hum drum of nonsense, worry, negativity, alarm…” sounds like emotional reactions to the content of thoughts. The original exercise was to carefully examine a thought and notice how it is composed of imaginary colors, sounds, etc. that cannot be found in DE. Compare to DE. When you did this, you noticed that thoughts lost their intensity.

“Sounds were more ‘external’” to what? “Thoughts felt more personal, closer” to what? Where is the line between “external” and “internal”? Look in DE.

No line between in and external, this was strange as had always seemed that ‘outside’ noises were external. Must be thoughts again, thinking that the noises outside were further away. It is all sounds happening in awareness. Thoughts are sounds or images.

What is “awareness”? Where is “awareness” in DE?

[- What did you mean by mistake thought for DE ? Isn’t thought in DE?

For clarification, let’s review the exercise with the apple then try some related exercises. When looking at an apple, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple’, and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple."
What is known for sure?
Colour is known and thoughts are known.
What about the content of thoughts, what they describe?
Actual experience does not refer to thoughts ABOUT something…because that is only just
more thought. Actual experience is sound, thought, colour, smell, taste, sensation.
Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’?
Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?
While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT can't be found in actual
experience.
This is what is meant by ‘looking in actual experience ‘. What you know for sure and what is
always here.
Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is an apple actually known?

Let’s look at thought and the content of thought a little more,
Write the word "I" on a piece of paper. Look at the word, is that YOU?
Speak the word “I” silently. Be aware of any sensations or responses to this word. Are any
of these reactions in your body or mind by themselves YOU?
Now say the word “I” aloud. Is that sound YOU?
Is the combination of any of these, the word, the sound, the thought YOU?
Is the thought, "I exist" you?
Is the thought "I" you?

The following exercise is designed to let you ‘feel’ the difference between actual
experience and imagined experience.
Close your eyes and imagine that you are holding a spoon. Imagine the spoons form, its size, its weight, its temperature. Look and feel at the imaginary spoon for a while.
Then open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
So how did you see that there is no spoon?
What happened to the spoon?
Did it disappear or did it never exist?
Notice that there was no boom and no bright flashes of light when the imaginary spoon was no longer imagined. Remember this, the shift to seeing through the illusion of a separate self is not going to be any more than this, it is just a dropping of a belief – the belief is the glue that holds the illusion together.
Now go and get a spoon from the kitchen and hold it in the same way that you imagined it.
Feel the spoon’s form, its size, its weight, its temperature.
Close your eyes and feel the spoon for a while.
Now open your eyes … is there a spoon here, in real life?
Are the image of the spoon and the experience of the spoon the same?
How does imagining and experiencing the same thing differ?
Now close your eyes again and bring your attention to the image of “me”, the separate individual entity. Spend some time exploring this, and then answer the following question:
Is it an image or is it an actual entity?
The questions are really just there for you to consider as you do the exercise, I do not need detailed answers to each one, just some reflections on how the exercise went for you, or if you have any questions or need any clarification.

Love
Liam

[Kaiho]

Hello Nic

How are you doing? I hope the exercises in my last post weren’t too basic. I realize you know this stuff.

Love
Liam

[Veganmamma]

Hello! Lovely Liam
Doing good thanks … no! You were bang on! I needed to go back to do them again to realise! So you pitched it perfectly. For example I realise now that the thought label ‘dog’ for eg is that and any additional thoughts ie ‘lovely dog, my dog, take for walk’ etc are NOT DE as the are add on thoughts. So I relearned things! So - am on it .. I will write it all up later. Thank you so much for checking in and sorry for delay.
Thank you xxx

[Kaiho]

Glad to hear that, Nic. No need to hurry.