Jen seeking guidance

[Jenness]

It’s still shifting though, if i just leave it and keep going with my day, which feels good!

[graceabounds]

the little bit of hope that I have some control over the causes and conditions, like some ability to shift it.

There’s just doubt because it’s counter to everything I operated by, and if i’m wrong it’ll be my “responsibility” cause I could’ve done something

This is like the last stand. This mechanism feeds on the illusion that by thinking thinking thinking there will be a control of what happens or avoidance of what is resisted.

What are you responsible for?


About concepts and seeing:
It’s fine if naming helps loosen the grip as a tool, but don’t let naming become another escape. Every label is just a way to organize experience. The root is always: “Is this label, this feeling, this urge, owned or controlled by anyone?”

It’s still shifting though, if i just leave it and keep going with my day, which feels good!

Great. Let it all continue to shift and move. Let sadness/fear/ownership/doubt all have their moment.
What happens if you give up even the hope of escape or resolution?
What if there is no way out, no “you” who could ever “get it right”?

…There is no “you” to let go. There never was.
There is only the letting go, or not letting go, happening—on its own.

[Jenness]

This is like the last stand. This mechanism feeds on the illusion that by thinking thinking thinking there will be a control of what happens or avoidance of what is resisted.

Yes, and I think it even believed that would be the end reward. Freedom to choose what action to take at any juncture, suffering to be avoided.

What are you responsible for?

Whether my life goes well or not, or optimizing so it goes as well as possible. And it’s starting to say, the best that it can go is if you let go of the idea that there’s someone here to control things. Which feels to be true, except it can’t happen by pretending there’s a self dropping the self to get something. So the self construct will never get what it wants. It doesn’t understand how this works…it doesn’t understand how it’s supposed to see something without a person here to see it, because then who is seeing it?

About concepts and seeing:
It’s fine if naming helps loosen the grip as a tool, but don’t let naming become another escape. Every label is just a way to organize experience. The root is always: “Is this label, this feeling, this urge, owned or controlled by anyone?”

This is helpful!

Great. Let it all continue to shift and move. Let sadness/fear/ownership/doubt all have their moment.
What happens if you give up even the hope of escape or resolution?
What if there is no way out, no “you” who could ever “get it right”?

…There is no “you” to let go. There never was.
There is only the letting go, or not letting go, happening—on its own.

Sadness comes up, “what are we here for then” thoughts, more of a sense of resignation, still a little thread wanting to double check. Gonna just let it do its thing as I get ready for bed and will come look at this again tomorrow !

[graceabounds]

it can’t happen by pretending there’s a self dropping the self to get something. So the self construct will never get what it wants.

EXACTLY

it doesn’t understand how it’s supposed to see something without a person here to see it, because then who is seeing it?

You can’t see what isn’t there.
There is only seeing, happening. no seer, no controller, no responsibility, just what’s here.

Sadness comes up, “what are we here for then” thoughts, more of a sense of resignation, still a little thread wanting to double check.

Very good. Be fully with what comes up in the body in the absence of needing to get somewhere or be responsible for anything. Let it land and process through the system. Notice what is thought (not owned) and let that pass like clouds. Let it panic, protest, rationalize, despair. Let it burn out. Ground into direct experience today.

Stay raw, direct, and immediate.
If there is still a sense of someone here, describe (precisely, from sensation) where it is, what it is, how it shows up.

If not:
What is it like, right now, to be without a self?

[Jenness]

it can’t happen by pretending there’s a self dropping the self to get something. So the self construct will never get what it wants.

EXACTLY

But something can realize there’s no one here. Is that just part of the remnants of the self, as soon as it gives it that label of “no one here”? Is it like this open experience for a split moment until the describer comes in to check out what it feels like and put it into words?

Very good. Be fully with what comes up in the body in the absence of needing to get somewhere or be responsible for anything. Let it land and process through the system. Notice what is thought (not owned) and let that pass like clouds. Let it panic, protest, rationalize, despair. Let it burn out. Ground into direct experience today.

Stay raw, direct, and immediate.
If there is still a sense of someone here, describe (precisely, from sensation) where it is, what it is, how it shows up.

It’s still there. It’s a prioritizing of this body over other things and holding it in attention and using that boundary of attention to label this body as a separate thing and then other things as objects, and it’s also this focusing attention on emotional sensations, labeling that as a separate thing then creating a subject to it (labeling the head area usually, especially if create a tension there), and then creates this relationship where the self- concept wants something from this other thing, for it to give me something or to change. Does that seem on the right track, this focus of attention as a main tool to add thoughts to separated out “parts”?

[graceabounds]

Yes. You see the machinery:
1. Attention contracts around “this body,” and that contraction is used as “evidence” of a boundary.
2. Labeling arises: “this is my body,” “that is an object,” “these are my sensations,” “those are other things.”
3. Emotional sensations become “mine,” attention locates a “me” (often in the head/face), and then the story is born: “I am here, wanting something from that.”

That entire process happens automatically.
You can’t stop it by effort. You can only see it in real time, as it builds the sense of separation and doer.

As soon as there’s a glimpse of openness, the habit is to check, label, and “own” it: “Oh, look, there’s no one here! …Wait, I’m experiencing no-self! …How does it feel? …Is it stable? …Am I still getting it?”
Immediately, the selfing reflex reassembles.

So what to do?
Noticing is enough. Don’t chase, don’t fix.
See HOW attention contracts, how boundaries are drawn, how “ownership” is constructed and “self” comes back as the describer or evaluator.

But something can realize there’s no one here

The “one who realized” is just another thought, another ripple, no different from any other appearance.

Can you find the “I” apart from the act of focusing, labeling, and story-making?

Is there a self anywhere except in the process of dividing, describing, and checking?
When attention relaxes, even for a split second, is there anyone left at all? or just this raw, boundless, unowned happening?

Let the machinery of self be seen, again and again, in real time.

What is truly here?
Anything separate, stable, in control?

[Jenness]

Yes. You see the machinery:
1. Attention contracts around “this body,” and that contraction is used as “evidence” of a boundary.
2. Labeling arises: “this is my body,” “that is an object,” “these are my sensations,” “those are other things.”
3. Emotional sensations become “mine,” attention locates a “me” (often in the head/face), and then the story is born: “I am here, wanting something from that.”

That entire process happens automatically.
You can’t stop it by effort. You can only see it in real time, as it builds the sense of separation and doer.

Helpful!

As soon as there’s a glimpse of openness, the habit is to check, label, and “own” it: “Oh, look, there’s no one here! …Wait, I’m experiencing no-self! …How does it feel? …Is it stable? …Am I still getting it?”
Immediately, the selfing reflex reassembles.

So something is aware of the openness, similar to how something is aware of colors in visual field etc., but as soon as labels come in, eg, that’s openness, that’s a table, and that label is believed to be more than a thought but a capturing of reality, the self construct has already slipped in?

So what to do?
Noticing is enough. Don’t chase, don’t fix.
See HOW attention contracts, how boundaries are drawn, how “ownership” is constructed and “self” comes back as the describer or evaluator.

Also helpful! Trying to catch them and see through them all feels like playing wack-a-mole. Okay to apply a vigilance and trying to catch it? Or that’s also just self-construct?

The “one who realized” is just another thought, another ripple, no different from any other appearance.

Can you find the “I” apart from the act of focusing, labeling, and story-making?

Is there a self anywhere except in the process of dividing, describing, and checking?
When attention relaxes, even for a split second, is there anyone left at all? or just this raw, boundless, unowned happening?

I’m having trouble identifying what knows that there’s no one left or what knows that’s it’s just stuff happening. Is there kind of a knowing that can be unowned? Almost like a felt sense?

Let the machinery of self be seen, again and again, in real time.

What is truly here?
Anything separate, stable, in control?

Nothing separate, nothing stable, the in control, there’s a sadness backed “there needs to be control” that obscures and leads to some doubt or hope. Will let the sadness sensations be there and look again tomorrow

[graceabounds]

Nothing separate, nothing stable, the in control, there’s a sadness backed “there needs to be control” that obscures and leads to some doubt or hope. Will let the sadness sensations be there and look again tomorrow

Yes, dive all the way in here to this sensation labeled ‘sadness.’ Let it come. Don’t fix it.
Let the urge for control be raw, unfiltered, with no need to manage or escape.

What is within or behind this sensation? What is present?

as soon as labels come in, eg, that’s openness, that’s a table, and that label is believed to be more than a thought but a capturing of reality, the self construct has already slipped in?

“That’s openness” with a feeling of I that accomplished or owned the openness is selfing. ‘A table’ is not selfing unless the thought is “that is my ex’s table and I should get rid of it” :)

Let vigilance too happen if it happens… see it as just more happening, not a “you” owning it, in other words without the agenda for vigilance.

[Jenness]

Yes, dive all the way in here to this sensation labeled ‘sadness.’ Let it come. Don’t fix it.
Let the urge for control be raw, unfiltered, with no need to manage or escape.

What is within or behind this sensation? What is present?

Attached thoughts are “I’m not good enough as is to just leave it” “I’m not okay with myself, with how much I keep getting caught”, “I’m not okay with the world and how it makes me feel” “how do I get out of how bad the world as is makes me feel?” “Is it worth it if it just feels bad?” It feels right to just stay with those feelings. I’m kind of excited about what’s on the other side

“That’s openness” with a feeling of I that accomplished or owned the openness is selfing. ‘A table’ is not selfing unless the thought is “that is my ex’s table and I should get rid of it” :)

Cool, so like just labeling of that’s openness and that’s a table instead of a it’s this felt sensory experience that feels like this but I don’t really have a label for it, is not really a selfing problem yet

Let vigilance too happen if it happens… see it as just more happening, not a “you” owning it, in other words without the agenda for vigilance.

Thanks, this links to the first part of letting self be caught and not then identifying with it. Have trouble with this because of the same not good enoughness from that first part

[graceabounds]

Great Jen,

So behind the sensation are these thoughts, let’s separate the two to get clear:

First thoughts:

Taking these thoughts about "I", replace the letter!
"I’m not good enough"
->
"O’s not good enough"
Can "O" not be good enough?
No.
How then could "I" not be?

"I don't like that"
->
"A don't like that"
Can "A" dislike anything?
No.
How come there is an idea that "I" can dislike anything?

See what happens. You can use this throughout the day with anything that arises.

Next the sensation itself:
Look inside the sensation. Just staying with it, Is there anything but sensation?
In the center of it, is there a self?

[Jenness]

Taking these thoughts about "I", replace the letter!
"I’m not good enough"
->
"O’s not good enough"
Can "O" not be good enough?
No.
How then could "I" not be?

"I don't like that"
->
"A don't like that"
Can "A" dislike anything?
No.
How come there is an idea that "I" can dislike anything?

Cool! To double check, A is literally just a letter right? It’s not pointing at another entity.
If i do this, it becomes just a thought not as attached to an ‘I” . If the thought includes two people, eg., I hate how my mom didn’t meet my needs, it would be replace both I and the other person with a letter?

Next the sensation itself:
Look inside the sensation. Just staying with it, Is there anything but sensation?
In the center of it, is there a self?

No self in the sensation, only the thoughts about it attached. Mostly what’s coming up today is an aversion/hate and a feeling I can’t quite name that has thoughts of meaninglessness of this life if nothing productive or useful done before death. Maybe it’s grief around the thoughts of lack of anything to change the reality of we’re here, we die, and the in between doesn’t matter in the way we thought it did. And maybe a slight hope of but maybe there is something we can do to make it meaningful, like.. see through the self lol

[graceabounds]

Hello!

Yes, A is just a letter, not an entity. And in that example you would replace I and my... can O have needs?

And let's go back in on raw sensation...

Mostly what’s coming up today is an aversion/hate and a feeling I can’t quite name that has thoughts of meaninglessness of this life if nothing productive or useful done before death. Maybe it’s grief around the thoughts of lack of anything to change the reality of we’re here, we die, and the in between doesn’t matter in the way we thought it did

Notice there is a feeling unnamed and then a LOT of thought to explain it... Where is this unnamed feeling? Can you describe where it is in the body? Staying with it, and letting thoughts pass unowned, what happens?
Does the aversion/hate 'reside' in a different place than the unnamed feeling? Staying with that only, describe it without stories or theories about it, just in raw sensation.

a slight hope of but maybe there is something we can do to make it meaningful, like.. see through the self lol

Same here, let go of all the explanation. Without needing to explain, where is this sensation labeled 'hope'? Stay with it. And back to the original question: Just staying with it, Is there anything but sensation?

[Jenness]

Going into retreat, be back next Tuesday!

[graceabounds]

Great, enjoy!

[Jenness]

Becca!! I think I finally saw it. It’s all really just a movie rolling..! What a weird thing. Just saw it today, so a little tentative about if I’ll get tricked again or have trouble seeing it again, but if feels just blended or coming from just the underlying sadness and fear that’s just been there seemingly every moment, like it’s not that tied to those thoughts specifically . A bit of dissociation kicking in because of the intensity of the sadness and fear but just letting all of them be there when I remember. Really grateful for you helping me see this, though maybe i should give it a bit of time to see if it sticks. Will report back tomorrow!