Will Look Until Lost or Found

[Stultus]

All is good. Thank you!
If, in future, a question arises, will a post to this thread reach you?
-Steve

[graceabounds]

Absolutely. Anytime.
:)
And if for any reason it does not my email is rebeccalinc@gmail.com

-Becca

[Stultus]

THANK YOU!

[graceabounds]

Also, should you wish, I am going to offer these questions to you to work with. Their purpose is to excavate anything that has been missed in our conversation and also to share your answers with my community of guides for further opportunities to clarify/deepen.

These will exist here whenever it feels relevant to examine. No timeline. :)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

8) Anything to add?

Abundant love,
Becca

[Stultus]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

It appears to exist only as a concept, a placeholder in language that arises in thought.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Self is like an verbal or mental optical illusion. A good analogy is a hole. The use of the word hole creates the illusion there is some at "thing" called a hole. But a hole is actually an absence. It is a distinguishing feature of the shape of the ground, not a thing in itself. Similarly, the the words you, me, I, etc. and our names have utility in pointing to a feature of the All - that perspective point where what is experienced as this body is centred and appears to act, think, etc. This illusion is reinforced by apparent consistency in arising memory (thought) that appears to provide a history to this self. But thoughts arise now. Perceptions arise now. Memory is thought arising now. There is only now and the current thoughts referring to thought of past/future.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before we started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It is very similar to having been so immersed in watching a movie that you feel the emotion of a character in it and then suddenly becoming acutely aware of sitting on a chair in your living room, your surroundings, and the movie playing out on the 2-dimensional screen of the the television and the character just a flat fabricated image. What was previously intimate and personal is suddenly distant and impersonal. But "fun" or "interesting", if that makes any sense.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look? Was there a moment of shift with a distinct before and after?

The thought arises that a significant moment arose where a headache was being experienced and it ebbed in and out as if one moment it was "mine" and painful and the next moment it was just "witnessed" and information about sensation.

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. Consider and describe each if these separately.

Decision - actions arising sometimes accompanied by rising thought of alternatives and consequences.
Intention - witnessing persistence in action sometimes accompanied by thought of fitness, self-encouragement, or memories of plans.
Free will - Just words. Behaviour arises sometimes accompanied by thoughts of decision or intent and thoughts of alternatives.

6) What makes things happen? How does it work?

It all appears to be an unprompted continual emergence. There appears to be a pattern of consistency in perceptions, activity and thoughts. Unknown beyond this moment, that is what currently appears.

7) What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Blank. No answer arises. Some thoughts arise of "Steve's story" but that is just arising thought like awareness of hum of the fan, warmth of dog on this arm. "Steve" continues to care, to empathise, to love, to have responsibilities, but is somewhat like watching a mechanism, watching a wind-up clock continue to click away. Like an involving show on tv.

8) Anything to add?

Thank you.

[graceabounds]

Hello hello!

Thank you for the care taken to articulate this experience. :)

I’ve shared your answers with the community of LU guides and Guide E has two clarifying questions:

What was previously intimate and personal is suddenly distant and impersonal. But "fun" or "interesting", if that makes any sense.

1) Can you give a concrete example or two of this?

2) How does the shift influence relationships with close ones, i.e. conventionally speaking personal and intimate relationships?

With love,
Becca

[Stultus]

1) Can you give a concrete example or two of this?

With work today, an unexpected project dropped with no spare time allowed to do it. Some emotion, frustration arose, thoughts RE strategy, defensiveness, working overtime, etc., arose. But these didn't have "hooks". They arose, and settled. It is as if they arise at arms length, somewhat distant, and feels framed in a mix of curiosity, good humor and compassion. Like following the actions of a likable character in a book or movie, with engagement ebbing and flowing. But all this a series of thoughts arising in conjunction with typing a response.

2) How does the shift influence relationships with close ones, i.e. conventionally speaking personal and intimate relationships?

My partner feels closer. In the same way "my" actions, thoughts, emotions appear to arise in framework of curiosity, compassion, and good humor, the thoughts and emotions that arise concerning my partner are also less reactive and tinged with curiosity, compassion, and good humor. All is more present. Interactions with others are like the sense of feeling the tip of one finger with the tip of another finger - though the sensation or perspective still only from one.
This is all quite difficult to articulate. Thoughts and words, typing, feels like garnishes on experience, not representative of experience. Make any sense?

[graceabounds]

Yes Steve, it absolutely makes sense. Beautiful in-the-world examples. Alas, the articulation of what is effortlessly present may never be sufficient again. Words, words, words… :)

There are no further questions from the guide group or from here so it appears that the Gateless Gate has been crossed… but as you know there is no Gate, no one to cross it, and no end to the journey.

Soon you will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. Your username will change from green to blue and this thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

The experience in the past couple of weeks is just the beginning of exploring. It will also be the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs and habitual patterns of thought. This can be an emotional process. If you have any questions or any hiccups, you are welcome to drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

It has been a pleasure to walk beside you here. Of course it is not necessarily the end of our conversation. You have my email if you’d like to stay in touch.

With gratitude and love,
Becca

[Stultus]

Thank you so much for your presence and attention. <3