Recognizing my non-dual nature

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

The retreat was fantastic, it was really good to have space and time for deep investigation.

1) Is there a sense of seeking another, deeper or more final seeing through self? If yes, say more about what is being sought?

Hmm, there is definitely still this sense of seeking for a deeper understanding. What is being sought, is a question that makes me laugh right now, because who says there is anything to find. But I found that during the retreat, major parts of the meditations still existed out of finding an experience. Certainly not always, sometimes resting in being was more than enough and of course, all that is needed. Right now, feeling into this question again a strong sense of calmness arises that I haven't felt in a while. A sense of full relaxation and ease into the moment. I have been running the past month, in overcharge. However, in the here and now, there is nothing that needs to be found. The self is just a thought, the sense of me is everywhere and nowhere, and the unfolding of things all happens by itself. Nothing is sought, nothing is needed. THe sensations in the body feel pleasant. The sounds come and go. And the typing happens all by itself. Nothing to look for, no one to look for anything.

2) If you read the sentence "this is it, this awakening" what reactions come up, what feelings and thoughts? Allowing everything to be seen and felt and expressed.

Still this feeling of calmness, of okayness. No particular thoughts arising at first. Reading the sentence again. There is no approval or dissaproval of the sentence. The words are read, but done so from this calmness, from the senses. By not focussing on the content of the sentence it does not raise any particular thoughts. If this is awakening than its fine, if not, it is also fine. There is not need for a different experience at the moment. Being here is very pleasant and peaceful, yet very alive and awake. Thought content is not so interesting at the moment.

What is this pull? Where is it found? In thought, or in sensation?

The pull cannot be there without thought, otherwise it would just be the natural happening of things and a natural movement towards something. I think my body has been in (over) activation mode the past month, and therefore it seems a bit out of balance. It feels tensed and stressed. Difficult for the tension to leave the body. When the labels are dropped, there are just the sensations on the body. Nothing difficult about them. Constantly changing. So yes, it must be a though that creates the pull and it attaches it to a bodily yearning to release or let go.

If in thought: can a thought pull or push or take any action?

No, a thought can draw the attention and when taken for truth it can influence the direction taken. But it is not the thought that takes the action. Thought don't have any power as such. But, who are what is capable to take action? There is just the action taken, no central figure taking it.

If in sensation: can sensations think, analyze, label, describe or interpret?

No, none of those. Sensations just are. In fact, they don't have any inherent quality or need for it. The senses just are.

Follow the signal being offered up here (pull) ...... allow it to take you deeper.
Feel that pull, embrace that pull! Where into the body does that pull take you?

The pull feels like a need to look closer. But where, in the belly? Also, not really. It does not feel directed towards anything particular. But it seems to be related to becoming more intimate. There is this underbelly feeling that there is something to embrace, something to allow, something to look closer into. But no specific part or direction.

Dive into the feelings and sensations arising.
Embrace the feelings you have expressed above, stay with them, see where they lead.

You can make a 'practice' of reciting each thought, one at a time, and see where it leads to in the body.

This does not lead to any place particular in the body, but I keep exploring with these. I must say that at times these feelings are not present, and I feel a general sense of calmness and joy. But it is interesting to explore these 'difficult' feelings, because there is still some resistance to them and a habit of seeking distraction when they arise.

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

How great that the retreat was fantastic!

There is certainly a lot more clarity coming through in what you have written.

Here are a couple more deepening questions for you from the same guide:

When the labels are dropped, there are just the sensations on the body. Nothing difficult about them. Constantly changing. So yes, it must be a thought that creates the pull and it attaches it to a bodily yearning to release or let go.

1. It sounds as if there is still a subtle belief that calmness is good whereas tension and/or seeking needs to be made to disappear.
Is this the case? Is there more 'self' in tension and seeking than in calmness and feeling fine?
What if tension and seeking, gross or subtle, is allowed to be?
What if there is no trying to remove it, let it go, or want it to leave?

2. In the same vein, re

"if this is awakening it is fine, it it is not awakening, it is also fine"

There seems to be a great openness and letting go of "awakening dreams" here.
At the same time is that the full experience? Or is there a little bit of detachment and/or a little bit of just enjoying the nice calm state right now as if it might be permanent?
What if awakening is (at times) painful, messy and confusing?

With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Busy week again, but here I am again.

1. It sounds as if there is still a subtle belief that calmness is good whereas tension and/or seeking needs to be made to disappear.
Is this the case? Is there more 'self' in tension and seeking than in calmness and feeling fine?

Hmm good question. When there is a lot of tension and seeking, the self talk takes over more, or becomes more prevelant and the identification with and the dependency on the thoughts seem to increase. However, also in calm states the illusion of the self can be very much there, it just appears differently (different thoughts). Button line is that neither state has more of an inherent self. It is just that the illusionary self seems more real and suffering enhancing (therefore less wanted) when there is tension and seeking. Seeking is very much related to the thoughts, because outside of thoughts there is no seeking. So I guess you are right that there is still the subtle belief that a calm state is prefered, but there is the realization (as with any beliefs), that this only stands true in thoughts.

What if tension and seeking, gross or subtle, is allowed to be?

It really helps if it is allowed to be, but it is also good if there is awareness of the tension. Past period I noticed the tension would not leave my body, disrupting my sleep quality, and with the awareness I could find some methods to release the tension: sports, meditation, yoga, slowing down. So yes it is allowed to be, but over longer time and when disrupting sleep it is important to find appropriate measures to release. In the end I don't have any control over the tension and the seeking, and also not the releasing, but by giving it more awareness, (its not me choosing it but declaring it helps to give it more attention), it helps to be less in that those states (which feels preferable). It is not about changing the tensed state, but about being aware of it and the effect it has on my body.

What if there is no trying to remove it, let it go, or want it to leave?

Yes, there is no one actively trying to remove it or let go of it. It just happens or not. Funny enough, when realizing there is no control whatsoever, tension releases. There are just the ever changing physical sensations. The mental clinging to the tension is the issue, or the wanting of it to be different.

There seems to be a great openness and letting go of "awakening dreams" here.
At the same time is that the full experience? Or is there a little bit of detachment and/or a little bit of just enjoying the nice calm state right now as if it might be permanent?

Hmm well it feels permanent on such a moment, because it is the only moment that is real. So wether or not the calm state remains, is irrelevant, on that moment it is how it is, and of course the calmness feels like coming home, at ease, natural. But there is no seeking to be in the calm state all the time. The same counts for being in a tensed or hectic state. Even that can dissapear in just a blink of an eye, and on such a moment it does not have any value anymore. It does not feel like I am searching or looking for a certain state of being all the time, altough the calm state is more preferred than is the mind identified stressed state. That is for sure. Who prefers the calm state? No one. In fact, without the content of thought there is not even such a thing as as a calm state. There is no conceptual quality given to the state. But there is a general okayness that can be perceived and a genuine enjoying of the moment.

What if awakening is (at times) painful, messy and confusing?

That seems inevitable. But there seems to be a general okayness about those things. So even when confusion or pain is arising, there is a general sense that everything is okay and that there is no control over things. Do I feel like I am in this place all the time, despite the messyness? Definitely not. There is still some resistance and search for distraction in these states, but more and more there is just the being with them.

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

A further question, for further deepening:

But there is a general okayness that can be perceived and a genuine enjoying of the moment.

and

That seems inevitable. But there seems to be a general okayness about those things.

Is the "okayness" itself just another state, or is it something deeper than any state that comes and goes?


With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Is the "okayness" itself just another state, or is it something deeper than any state that comes and goes?

It is something deeper, tho it is not some 'thing'. It is all pervasive. Always here and available. The senses, emotions, moods, thoughts and other perceivable things all come and go. But there is this nothingness that is always aware of all of that. Shining light on all these relative things and yet not seperate from it. It is here with the sounds, we the sensations in the body, with the typing, with the looking, with the breathing, with the cognizing. It does not have an agenda. It does not have a goal. It has no preference. All is welcome. Everything rises and falls within it. It is the feet on the ground and the thought of that. It is fully connected to this moment. It is the frustration and the getting lost in thought. It does not belong to anyone, but also excludes no one. It is full of paradoxes. It is the anxiety and the joy. Then if I am this, what is there to do? Who can do other than this all absorbing nothingness? What else is there to do, than to be? There is no clear answer. It is a mystery. I am a mystery.

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

Lovely words! And there is something that is worthy of investigating further :)

Then if I am this, what is there to do? Who can do other than this all absorbing nothingness? What else is there to do, than to be? There is no clear answer. It is a mystery. I am a mystery.

These last few sentences are not so clear as the beginning of the paragraph.
All along, throughout our investigation, we have been looking for an independent "I".
We are in agreement that conventionally speaking we use "I" , "me' and 'you", but for clarity regarding this inquiry please clarify:

What do you mean exactly when you state: "Then if I am this, what is there to do?"
Does "this" require a personal label of "I"?
"What is there to do?" Is there a need to do anything?

Are you doing "this all absorbing nothingness"?
Or,
Is "I am" just an add-on label, and "this all absorbing nothingness" is all-nothing?


With love,

Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

What do you mean exactly when you state: "Then if I am this, what is there to do?"

This question was raised because it was realized that all perceivable things are part of me, but they are not me at the same time and that I am not the creator of these things. This also counts for the actions, thoughts, goals, seeking etc. So if all is part of me, but not created or done by me, what other is there to do than just to be with the rising and falling of them? I realize it is difficult to explain this without using very logical reasoning. Bottom line it is saying that there is nothing to do other than to be.

Does "this" require a personal label of "I"?

No it actually doesnt. It was more a way to say that there is no individual doer that can do anything other than be one with experience.

"What is there to do?" Is there a need to do anything?

There is nothing to do, and definitely not a need to do anything. On a relative level yes. But from this point of okayness all happens and unfolds quite naturally. The act of doing something or doing a particular activity all happens by itself and it is merely a concept that forms it into a logical action. Otherwise it is just being in the moment with whatever is being done.

Are you doing "this all absorbing nothingness"?

No, it is always here without any effort. Even when it seems or feels like I am doing something (the person Thomas), the all absorbing nothingness is there and is naturally with the rising and falling of the experiences.

Or,

Is "I am" just an add-on label, and "this all absorbing nothingness" is all-nothing?

I am is just a label. There is no one that is this all absorbing nothingness. It is nothing, so definitely not a person and definitely not (a conventional) me. Dropping the I am, there is just the raw experience of the sounds, the bodily sensations, the breath, the sights and the thoughts. All here, all absorbed by something that has no name, that has no identity, that is No Thing and yet the source of everything.

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

Here are a further two questions for you.
Let the answers come from your direct experience.

You say, “All here, all absorbed by something that has no name, that has no identity, that is No Thing and yet the source of everything.”

1) Is there still a subtle sense that you are this special “No Thing" that does nothing but everything is part of it?

2) Without buying into thoughts or concepts, what remains?

With love,
Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

1) Is there still a subtle sense that you are this special “No Thing" that does nothing but everything is part of it?

Hmm even that would be a thought, the thought of being no thing. I don't know who or what I am to be honest. I am present, that is for sure. There is a visual image of the screen and the letters appearing and the thought of me typing. But I can't even be sure that it is me who is observing that, as the idea of an observer is just that, and idea. So there is the observing, but it is not a conscious act. It happens all be itself. The world is in me, but I am also in the world at the same time. There is a knowing of everything that is happening in experience, and whatever I am is synonymous with the happening. Everything takes place in it. And everything that takes place in it is not seperated from it.

2) Without buying into thoughts or concepts, what remains?

There is the sensing, the hearing, the image, the cognizing, the tasting and then there is a knowing quality of all of this. Everything is being known. All these experiences are emtpy, they come and go. And it is all taking place in a certain emptiness and formless place that is yet very expansive. It is even there when bought into thoughts and concepts. What remains? This!

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Lovely Thomas,

1) Is there still a subtle sense that you are this special “No Thing" that does nothing but everything is part of it?

Hmm even that would be a thought, the thought of being no thing. I don't know who or what I am to be honest. I am present, that is for sure. There is a visual image of the screen and the letters appearing and the thought of me typing. But I can't even be sure that it is me who is observing that, as the idea of an observer is just that, and idea. So there is the observing, but it is not a conscious act. It happens all be itself. The world is in me, but I am also in the world at the same time. There is a knowing of everything that is happening in experience, and whatever I am is synonymous with the happening. Everything takes place in it. And everything that takes place in it is not seperated from it.

You didn't answer the question here, your answer came from thought.
The question was clearly stated and pointing to honest looking from your direct experience.
No explanations or deliberations are needed here.

Is there still a subtle sense that you are this special “No Thing" that does nothing but everything is part of it?

I don't know who or what I am to be honest.

Is there an actual 'you' that needs to know or be what it is?
What is seeking this knowing?
Is there still a seeking going on?
And if so, what does seeking appear as other than thoughts and sensations?
Are there sensations in the body that could be labelled 'seeking sensations'?

But I can't even be sure that it is me who is observing that, as the idea of an observer is just that, and idea.

YES!

So there is the observing, but it is not a conscious act. It happens all be itself.

YES!

The world is in me, but I am also in the world at the same time.

Clearly, this is a beautiful thought, BUT
Is this what is actually seen from direct experience?
How would it be to let go of all thoughts of personal reference and pondering?

Your second paragraph is completely clear! :)

With love,
Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

Is there still a subtle sense that you are this special “No Thing" that does nothing but everything is part of it?

Hearing the breath. Hearing the typing. Feeling the sensations all over the body. Hearing sounds and thoughts appearing about it being outside. Hearing roommates talking = thought and sound. Feeling painful sensation in forehead and strong contraction in chest. Hearing the tram again. Frustration is there with thoughts saying its because roommates are talking so late. All thoughts happening on the surface. My back against the couch, the breath it very present, thoughts continuously running. This is all that comes up from direct experience. There is a certain restlessness in the system combined with a tiredness. Now a sadness and frustration is noticed. Strong contraction in the forehead, chest and belly.

Is there an actual 'you' that needs to know or be what it is?

No me found here. So there is no need to know or to be anyone. If there is no one that needs to know anything, than there is nothing to realize for anyone.

What is seeking this knowing?

Thougths are seeking the knowing. Seeking and knowing are concepts made up to create deeper understanding, but are still that, thoughts. But there is no seeker to be found.

Is there still a seeking going on?

Only in thoughts and on a mind level. Resting here in DE, there are the sounds, there is the typing, strong sense in the chest and belly. Sadness and frustration being known.

And if so, what does seeking appear as other than thoughts and sensations?

Only as thoughts and sensations

Are there sensations in the body that could be labelled 'seeking sensations'?

No, that is just a thought. Sensations are just sensations. There are sensations that I associate with seeking, but that requires a thought to do so. If just tuning in to the sensations there is a strong feeling in the troat, the forehead, the belly. Thoughts trying to label and give a quality to the sensations.

Very challenging these days to not be occupied completely by thoughts. But despite that, there is alway this accepting quality in everything. Difficult tho to release the sadness, tension and frustration in the system. Not actively trying to, but feels restless. Constantly in action. Constantly in a rush. Constantly moving. Constantly looking for approval, for recognition. Just noticing it all happen and it feels like I have no control. No control over thoughts, no control over body, no control over life, of the reaction to dissapointment, of the addiction on things. Trying to sit with everything, but body keeps looking for distraction. Feeling completely helpless somehow. Still running, running, running in hope for better. Who is steering the wheel? No idea. I can't calm myself down, because there is no one to calm down.

Warm regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Dear Thomas,

Thanks for sharing everything that is going on.
The other guide has offered some points for reflection/ consideration.

1) You say no one can be calmed because there is no one to calm... Does that mean less caring and calming actions are happening? Does that mean that less sincere and caring reflection on what might bring well being is happening?

Often times, at a certain stage, people identify with the *belief* in no self, which can easily lead to passivity and resignation. Psychological research shows a belief in internal locus of control (I can make things better, it is up to me) is healthier then an external locus of control (its all outside of my control). What we aim for here is beyond both a sense of an I with control and beyond a sense of an I without control, and can include in the relative both a healthy normal practical and psychological feeling of mastery/control (I can lift my hand, I can exercise, relax, I can honor my wishes and bounderies, etc) and the feeling of no control (I cannot stop my heart for a minute, things happen I have no influence over). So please look if an identification with the belief in no self is happening. It is important to separate belief in no self from alive realization.

2) Please for the next day (or few days) look at the wish for approval and how felt well being goes up and down with approval and recognition vs blame, criticism and being ignored or not seen. Don't judge it or try to change it. Just look how it moves and be curious about what is experiencing it and what it is made of.

With love,
Rowena

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

I will check the approval question this weekend. I will be 3 days emerged in the coaching course again, with lots of feedback, so perfect for this question:) Will come back to you on monday!

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Secrethippie]

Hi Rowena,

You say no one can be calmed because there is no one to calm... Does that mean less caring and calming actions are happening? Does that mean that less sincere and caring reflection on what might bring well being is happening?

Caring and calming actions are always here, because they are natural when less occupied by the seeking and dissatisfied mind. It is more about an understanding that ultimately there is no control and no one controlling the state of being. It is also placing a certain trust in life and that it will give me what is needed on a certain moment and that the body will take care of itself. Well being enhancing activities like good sleep, good food, exercise, social contact and being in nature are naturally prefered, because it just feels well and supports a mindful way of living.

Often times, at a certain stage, people identify with the *belief* in no self, which can easily lead to passivity and resignation. Psychological research shows a belief in internal locus of control (I can make things better, it is up to me) is healthier then an external locus of control (its all outside of my control). What we aim for here is beyond both a sense of an I with control and beyond a sense of an I without control, and can include in the relative both a healthy normal practical and psychological feeling of mastery/control (I can lift my hand, I can exercise, relax, I can honor my wishes and bounderies, etc) and the feeling of no control (I cannot stop my heart for a minute, things happen I have no influence over). So please look if an identification with the belief in no self is happening. It is important to separate belief in no self from alive realization.

Hmm yes this makes a lot of sense. Definitely I sometimes live by the believe of no self, but eventually, it is just another thought. For me this feels like the balance between a certain devotion (which feels more conscious) and a letting go of control/trusting the process (which feels more unconscious). That is actually were I aim to balance the path. The risk of too much on the devotion side is that it enhances the sense of an ego of an agent who is driving the process, and the risk of too much on the letting go side is a stop in curiousity or a stop in the seeking of reality.

2) Please for the next day (or few days) look at the wish for approval and how felt well being goes up and down with approval and recognition vs blame, criticism and being ignored or not seen. Don't judge it or try to change it. Just look how it moves and be curious about what is experiencing it and what it is made of.

This weekend there were many times that I got 'negative' critical feedback and times where I got 'positive' compliments and feedback. There seems to be a preference for the positive compliments and also a seeking for it. The seeking primarily happens in thougths. "I hope that they tell me that...."
Also because the negative feedback gives a very intens reaction in the body in combination with that the ego feels attacked. The associated 'pain' is not comfortable, but again only a reflection from thoughts can bring this analyses. However, all is short lived, especially the positive feedback. The positive compliments bring out a positive feeling in the body combined with positive thoughts (needed to give the label 'positive'). The negative feedback brings out a negative feeling in the body (especially a strong gut feeling when being publically exposed, a rashing sensation over arms and legs, a contraction in the troat and chest, and a contraction on the forehead) combined with negative thoughts. The negative feeling and thought pattern seems to sustain longer in the system and thoughts become more prevelant and start analysing the situation more in order to prevent it from happening again and to get rid of it as soon as possible. When feeling the 'negative' emotions and sensations it is all not too bod, far from comfortable, but giving it the space it wants really helps.

Loving regards,
Thomas

[Noro]

Hi Thomas,

Guide E has suggested another round of work:

"the negative feedback gives a very intens reaction in the body in combination with that the ego feels attacked"

Pleasentness and unpleasantness, enjoyment and pain, in social interaction are par for the course, like water temperature that can be pleasant or unpleasant, enjoyable or painful - part of life.

However, what is this "ego" that feels attacked?
What does it consist of?
Does it actually exist as a thing or is it just habitual thoughts, beliefs, motivations?

Please don't answer from conviction, but rather look freshly at it... If it feels right, please pay attention to the experience of "ego" for a while, when does it emerge, what is it? Are there sensations (like contraction or such) that tend to be experienced before the thoughts that are referred to as ego come?

With love,
Rowena