Cesar Zapata

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

I'm writing cuz I seem to have gone a bit lost.

Seems like a lot of seeking starked to come up again, a feeling of frustration and restlessness.

I have been looking at my experience in day to day life, and it feels like I am living in many different perspectives, and sometimes it feels like it's all mixed up, like I stired emotions in the body, and the sense of the one seeking to break-through, or understand an elemental insight, or trying to solve the problem of thinking, or the problem of me. That is very present at the moment, seems like I watching my life from the perspective of this invisible being that is trying to understand why it cannot find itself, or see how it is an illusion. Like the ilusion trying to dissipate itself.

When this confusion appears, sometimes it's just observed for some time, and then at some point attention will get caught in some train of thought, then I try to give towards just feeling sensations to ground, but I feel a disconfort/disatisfactoriness in the body and the mind seems to get quite agitated and trying every trick in the book to calm down. Orienting towards sensation, trying inquiries, and I see a fixation with trying to move more towards a confortable state or a less thinking/identified way of being.

I also noticed that when I drop trying to fix, and just observe there is a relaxation with it, but I cant seem to do it at will, sometimes it happens, sometimes it doesnt.

Feels like I am in a bit of a caotic space with a lot of doubt, stired up sensations in the body and resistence.

In general it feels like I'm trying to control how I feel and I can't, and I really want to feel better desperatly.

When I try to look at what is causing things to feel separate, most of the times it's really difficult, cuz it feels like I am in auto-pilot, and I just wont remember, or sometimes I do remember, but it's almost like I can't get attention to look at things, feels like the mind/attention just goes fuzzy and not sharp to look at things as in other times. So in a sense, what is seen is this lack of attention/directness of what is here, it's very much in thought-land.

[Elad]

You are in a good place :)

It is becoming clear *experientially* that there is no controller... And this is resisted by the forces that put the illusion in place, in order to have the illusionary comfort and safety of the I-thought and the imaginary distance.

Keep being curious about this I-thought (inviisable being) and other thoughts, including resistance thoughts.

1)Do they touch direct experience at all?

2) There is no controller, there are all kinds of shifting sensations and thoughts. So what?

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

1)Do they touch direct experience at all?

What do you mean by "touch direct experience"? I've been trying to look at this but not sure I know what I am looking for, could you give further guidance?

2) There is no controller, there are all kinds of shifting sensations and thoughts. So what?

Do you mean to just stay with these and observe?


The other day I was sitting in the sofa at night just looking around me and trying to explain to myself where the separation is, or rather how my world view is. That made a change in the visual perspective, like the world became more real and more solid, and suddenly fear started to arise, fear of being inside the body trapped. So I just started to investigate how these world views actually manage to change the way we feel, and I also noticed that I could not locate myself too well, that sensation of having something behind me desapeared and the mind went confused as I couldn't know what I was, I could see everything appearing but not quite sure what was seeing everything.

The next day things went back to feel less real, more dream-like if you will, but this has been calling my attention and I have been looking at the world with this curiosity, I also notice some visual shifts, depending on the visual I'm seeing the sense of depth starts to shift between two perceptions. Like of a photo camera was adjusting the focus.

[Elad]

Hi Cesar

What do you mean by "touch direct experience"? I've been trying to look at this but not sure I know what I am looking for, could you give further guidance?

The invitation here is to look at the relationship between thoughts and reality. I will give you an exercise you maybe did once please do it again with beginners mind (at the end).

2) There is no controller, there are all kinds of shifting sensations and thoughts. So what?

Do you mean to just stay with these and observe?

See what happens if you say "so what"? When there are thoughts and sensations plus thoughts saying that something should be different.

The other day I was sitting in the sofa at night just looking around me and trying to explain to myself where the separation is, or rather how my world view is. That made a change in the visual perspective, like the world became more real and more solid, and suddenly fear started to arise, fear of being inside the body trapped. So I just started to investigate how these world views actually manage to change the way we feel, and I also noticed that I could not locate myself too well, that sensation of having something behind me desapeared and the mind went confused as I couldn't know what I was, I could see everything appearing but not quite sure what was seeing everything.

The next day things went back to feel less real, more dream-like if you will, but this has been calling my attention and I have been looking at the world with this curiosity, I also notice some visual shifts, depending on the visual I'm seeing the sense of depth starts to shift between two perceptions. Like of a photo camera was adjusting the focus.

Good good, things are unfolding. Keeping being on the look out:

Why is it being believed that "I" am responsible for and in control of whatever thoughts, sensations and actions happen?



Exercise:


Mind labelling experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation ie is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example: I am sitting on a chair, I am hearing a clock ticking, I am looking at a computer screen, I am feeling hungry. Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs. For example: sitting on a chair, typing, breathing, blinking, hearing the clock. (Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1) Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2) What is here without labels?

3) Do labels affect what is actually seen, heard, felt, tasted, etc, or just describe it?

4) Did you notice any differences in the body?

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

1) Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

When this question was asked, a thought arose which seems like an understanding that "there is no right way that this is" and with that thought a tightness in the heart. Then a sense of seeing a bit more clearly that everything appears however it appears, but there is something untouched by the contents of counciousness.

2) What is here without labels?

There's something. Even with labels it would not be possible to describe it with precision, it's something that doesn't seem to be a certain way, it can take the form of concepts but concepts cannot correctly describe it or encapsulate it, when I try to define what it is, immediately it's obvious it's not the correct concept.

3) Do labels affect what is actually seen, heard, felt, tasted, etc, or just describe it?

This is not clear to me, it seems like the labels have some form of affect on how things are experienced, maybe like limiting the perspective or overlooking some aspects, though not sure this is because of the labels, I guess that happens without labels as well, it's like a perception I think.

4) Did you notice any differences in the body?

Yes, the visual field, and attention seems to be more in the sense fields, as well as a feeling of more detachment when labeling without "I", and the way attention moves seems to be a bit different as well.

Why is it being believed that "I" am responsible for and in control of whatever thoughts, sensations and actions happen?

I think the feeling of being in control is quite intact. To me what gives this impression the most if this dynamic of "I thought comes up saying, I want to do this, and then the body moves and does it" it feels like body moving and thoughts are in sync and feels like I am in control.

[Elad]

Hi Cesar, good movement...

3) Do labels affect what is actually seen, heard, felt, tasted, etc, or just describe it?

This is not clear to me, it seems like the labels have some form of affect on how things are experienced, maybe like limiting the perspective or overlooking some aspects, though not sure this is because of the labels, I guess that happens without labels as well, it's like a perception I think.

Look at this one some more. Attend to direct experience of seeing, hearing, feeling, etc while alternately describing it as I see, I here, I feel etc. versus labeling it seeing, heering, feeling etc and keep looking:

Does the preverbal experience, the direct experience, in any way change because of the labeling?

I think the feeling of being in control is quite intact. To me what gives this impression the most if this dynamic of "I thought comes up saying, I want to do this, and then the body moves and does it" it feels like body moving and thoughts are in sync and feels like I am in control.

Keep looking at this one. Yes there are thoughts like "I want this" or "I will do that" and yes, they conventionally seem correlated with actions (this can also be inquired more into, but for now lets just let it be).


However, why is it still believed that these I-thoughts are you?

That there is a you that has all that, rather than that it is all happening by itself with no separate you in control at all?

Do you control and choose that you still believe (that you still believe..) that you are a separate self?

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

Does the preverbal experience, the direct experience, in any way change because of the labeling?

No, labels don't change anything.

Do you control and choose that you still believe (that you still believe..) that you are a separate self?

This is clear that I don't.

However, why is it still believed that these I-thoughts are you?

I don't know why, and when I ask this question, I look in direct experience, and I don't know what a belief is, or how it's being believed. Because in direct experience, I cannot say I experience a belief, yet somehow it seems to influence experience. I don't know where they exist, where they are stored, or how to go about uprooting it.

That there is a you that has all that, rather than that it is all happening by itself with no separate you in control at all?

This is a weird one, I can see over and over by examples in life that things are just hapenning, and yet something seems to operate here based on control.

[Elad]

Hi Cesar,

That there is a you that has all that, rather than that it is all happening by itself with no separate you in control at all?

This is a weird one, I can see over and over by examples in life that things are just hapenning, and yet something seems to operate here based on control.

[/quote]

Okay, just keep noticing this belief in someone/something in control AND see you believe it is YOU and then check if it is true many times in real time.

Control happens conventionally speaking, like a normal person can lift his hand and aim food to his mouth, he has control over that, but not control to do a triple backflip. What you want to look at many times is the sense/belief that it is YOU who is control. The exercise with palm flipping is good for that. You did it right?


Also can we check again if you might have any mixed feelings about there being no self? Feel into, might I have any mixed feelings about that I don't exist? Strict honesty is key and whatever is MUST be honored for this to work. All feelings are allowed and valid as part of the proces. Write me about this.

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

Control happens conventionally speaking, like a normal person can lift his hand and aim food to his mouth, he has control over that, but not control to do a triple backflip. What you want to look at many times is the sense/belief that it is YOU who is control. The exercise with palm flipping is good for that. You did it right?

I don't think we have done the hand flipping exercise, at least I cannot remember it.

Also can we check again if you might have any mixed feelings about there being no self? Feel into, might I have any mixed feelings about that I don't exist? Strict honesty is key and whatever is MUST be honored for this to work. All feelings are allowed and valid as part of the proces. Write me about this.

I'll explore and ask this question very sincerely. But from the surface I can say I have absolute conviction that there is something funky and I trust all the people/teachers I have come across on my path that there is really no self. I have had glimpses as well which help that trust. But the general feeling in here is "I know these movements that are happening are not the person they seem to be" and I feel like I have never been more honest in my persuite than at this point. I feel ready to face whatever fears arise and let go of whatever attachements I have.
With that being said, I am also very aware of the power of unconcious beliefs and repressed emotions, so I am open to find out more that I might be hiding from myself.
I'll do this and report back.

[Elad]

Hi Elad.

Control happens conventionally speaking, like a normal person can lift his hand and aim food to his mouth, he has control over that, but not control to do a triple backflip. What you want to look at many times is the sense/belief that it is YOU who is control. The exercise with palm flipping is good for that. You did it right?

I don't think we have done the hand flipping exercise, at least I cannot remember it.

Also can we check again if you might have any mixed feelings about there being no self? Feel into, might I have any mixed feelings about that I don't exist? Strict honesty is key and whatever is MUST be honored for this to work. All feelings are allowed and valid as part of the proces. Write me about this.

I'll explore and ask this question very sincerely. But from the surface I can say I have absolute conviction that there is something funky and I trust all the people/teachers I have come across on my path that there is really no self. I have had glimpses as well which help that trust. But the general feeling in here is "I know these movements that are happening are not the person they seem to be" and I feel like I have never been more honest in my persuite than at this point. I feel ready to face whatever fears arise and let go of whatever attachements I have.
With that being said, I am also very aware of the power of unconcious beliefs and repressed emotions, so I am open to find out more that I might be hiding from myself.
I'll do this and report back.

Perfect.


Here is the exercise, do it with beginners mind:



Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.
2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:-

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

I'm sorry it's been taking me a while to respond on this one, for some reason I feel that in the past few days I have been feeling in that frustrated space again confused with this process, with experience changing so rapidly. Some days there's a natural inclination to inquire and curiosity about my experience, but these past few days this has not been present, feeling very avoidant and the inquiries just don't seem to go very deep.
I also find this is very dynamic, some days I feel like that, and some days I just wake up and curiosity appears and deep investigation just happens.
Because this process has been very confusing due to these unpredictable polarities, I am trying to adopt an orientation that "whatever is happening is happening exactly as it needs to be" because I have a very strong tendency to get caught in these analytical thoughts, doubt thoughts, trying to judge experience and see if I am progressing, and I feel that's not been helpful. So I notice a new inclination to not fight when I feel more distracted, or less "serious" about inquirying, or not trying too hard, feeling like "I have to do stick to the practices ardently". I honestly don't feel it's coming from an avoidant part, cuz I tend to go way more on the other direction of making a lot of effort and seeking, etc.


I have been keeping the question on the back of my mind you asked "if I have mixed feelings about there not being a self".

So this is in responde to this bit:

Also can we check again if you might have any mixed feelings about there being no self? Feel into, might I have any mixed feelings about that I don't exist? Strict honesty is key and whatever is MUST be honored for this to work. All feelings are allowed and valid as part of the proces. Write me about this.

To me it feels like this, I am concious, and I can see Cesar apears. I know Cesar is not what it looks like, and there's aspects of experience that are mixed up. I have "conviction" which is maybe not the right word, it's more like, I can see all parts of a puzzle, and in the parts of the puzzle, I cannot find Cesar, and yet this puzzle appears as Cesar in my experience, I know its not what it seems, but I don't know what it is and what is the missing piece.
So I have a certain level of conviction that I know Cesar is like a fenomenon appearing, and that something needs to get untangled in my experience for that to appear more clearly. I just don't know who is trying to do that, how it happens, when and if any of it is true :D
Maybe the fact that I have been shown so much of what I thought was true isnt that I can't be certain of anything anymore. Recently I see an inclination of the mind to go more towards faith and trust cuz I have really no fucking clue of anything :D


Let me know if you would like me to explore a bit more with that or ask further questions because if this hinders the process I would love to investigate further and find any thing that could be making this more difficult than it has to be.


I have also started to do the movement exercise. I'll report what I have got so far, but I feel there's more for me to explore here, I want to see it until I am convinced/certain this belief of control has clarified as I think it's a pretty sticky point.

How is the movement controlled?

I don't know. I can only notice a feeling, that seems to be interpreted as "me" doing it, but when I try to find that which is controlling, it feels like it's being controlled, or there is something that feels like a will behind the movement, but I can really say that refers to me doing it. It's been taken to be that way and never entertained the possibility that that's just a feeling but no one is behind that.

Does a thought control it?

Absolutely not. How could it, a thought is just a mental cloud, thoughts dont seems to do anything rather than just sugest or pop-up. They don't seem to have agency.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No. Same as the first questions, feels like it's being controlled, but not by someone.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I can only notice some flesh thoughts sometimes, and that feeling of will doing it. I don't know exactly how it's done.

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

When I look at this, the hand ends up waiting without movement, then it seems like the moment I'm distracted, it moves, sometimes as predicted, sometimes unpredictable, like reaching for the phone instead of turning the hand.
It seems to be followed or maybe at the same time, a thought pops up suggesting that the movement is about.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

That made it very clear that I had no idea. When I take into consideration this, what comes up is questions about conditioning. Like, memories of when I was young and maybe still forming these ideas of world, and how I used to notice how conditioning was starting to form. Like once you do things once or twice you start to see history repeat itself, and attaching those ideas to a "me" who was doing it.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. Like in the previous, it feels like a choice is being made, or will exerted, but not by something. It just feels that way.


Elad.
Thank you so much for doing this work and helping gide me.

Regards,

Cesar.

[Elad]

Hi Cesar!

I'm sorry it's been taking me a while to respond on this one, for some reason I feel that in the past few days I have been feeling in that frustrated space again confused with this process, with experience changing so rapidly. Some days there's a natural inclination to inquire and curiosity about my experience, but these past few days this has not been present, feeling very avoidant and the inquiries just don't seem to go very deep.
I also find this is very dynamic, some days I feel like that, and some days I just wake up and curiosity appears and deep investigation just happens.
Because this process has been very confusing due to these unpredictable polarities, I am trying to adopt an orientation that "whatever is happening is happening exactly as it needs to be" because I have a very strong tendency to get caught in these analytical thoughts, doubt thoughts, trying to judge experience and see if I am progressing, and I feel that's not been helpful. So I notice a new inclination to not fight when I feel more distracted, or less "serious" about inquirying, or not trying too hard, feeling like "I have to do stick to the practices ardently". I honestly don't feel it's coming from an avoidant part, cuz I tend to go way more on the other direction of making a lot of effort and seeking, etc.

I think this is beautiful. My intuition is this good and keep it like this.

I have been keeping the question on the back of my mind you asked "if I have mixed feelings about there not being a self".

So this is in responde to this bit:

Also can we check again if you might have any mixed feelings about there being no self? Feel into, might I have any mixed feelings about that I don't exist? Strict honesty is key and whatever is MUST be honored for this to work. All feelings are allowed and valid as part of the proces. Write me about this.

To me it feels like this, I am concious, and I can see Cesar apears. I know Cesar is not what it looks like, and there's aspects of experience that are mixed up. I have "conviction" which is maybe not the right word, it's more like, I can see all parts of a puzzle, and in the parts of the puzzle, I cannot find Cesar, and yet this puzzle appears as Cesar in my experience, I know its not what it seems, but I don't know what it is and what is the missing piece.

How do you know there is a missing piece?

Maybe the missing piece is the extra piece of your expectation that something should be differet...

So I have a certain level of conviction that I know Cesar is like a fenomenon appearing, and that something needs to get untangled in my experience for that to appear more clearly. I just don't know who is trying to do that, how it happens, when and if any of it is true :D
Maybe the fact that I have been shown so much of what I thought was true isnt that I can't be certain of anything anymore. Recently I see an inclination of the mind to go more towards faith and trust cuz I have really no fucking clue of anything :D

Yes. This process is not about knowing ultimate metaphysical/ontological answers. It is about looking for where there is a real belief in self hiding and then testing it. It is all about your idiosyncratic experience so to speak.

So what is the evidence that you believe you are an agent in control of things that can choose and experience?

Let me know if you would like me to explore a bit more with that or ask further questions because if this hinders the process I would love to investigate further and find any thing that could be making this more difficult than it has to be.

Let's see what comes from my questions above.

I have also started to do the movement exercise. I'll report what I have got so far, but I feel there's more for me to explore here, I want to see it until I am convinced/certain this belief of control has clarified as I think it's a pretty sticky point.

How is the movement controlled?

I don't know. I can only notice a feeling, that seems to be interpreted as "me" doing it, but when I try to find that which is controlling, it feels like it's being controlled, or there is something that feels like a will behind the movement, but I can really say that refers to me doing it. It's been taken to be that way and never entertained the possibility that that's just a feeling but no one is behind that.

Does a thought control it?

Absolutely not. How could it, a thought is just a mental cloud, thoughts dont seems to do anything rather than just sugest or pop-up. They don't seem to have agency.

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

No. Same as the first questions, feels like it's being controlled, but not by someone.

How is the decision made to turn the hand over?

I can only notice some flesh thoughts sometimes, and that feeling of will doing it. I don't know exactly how it's done.

Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

When I look at this, the hand ends up waiting without movement, then it seems like the moment I'm distracted, it moves, sometimes as predicted, sometimes unpredictable, like reaching for the phone instead of turning the hand.
It seems to be followed or maybe at the same time, a thought pops up suggesting that the movement is about.

Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

That made it very clear that I had no idea. When I take into consideration this, what comes up is questions about conditioning. Like, memories of when I was young and maybe still forming these ideas of world, and how I used to notice how conditioning was starting to form. Like once you do things once or twice you start to see history repeat itself, and attaching those ideas to a "me" who was doing it.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

No. Like in the previous, it feels like a choice is being made, or will exerted, but not by something. It just feels that way.

This is great. Yes there is control, conventionally speaking. "You" can control to hit your mouth with the spoon (not trivial!) but not to change the direction of your blood or a 5 double salto. But really no you who controls. Just some things are like this, some like that. The wind can life some things of the ground and not others, without any "winder" agent doing it.

Elad.
Thank you so much for doing this work and helping gide me.

With joy :)

[Elad]

The wind can lift some things off the ground and other things it can't, without any winder doing it.

[cesarzapata]

Hi Elad.

Maybe the missing piece is the extra piece of your expectation that something should be differet...

Yes. You are absolutly right. I keep this fixation in mind, that at some point things will change, and have more clarity or some sort of magical moment when things will be easy and flowing without me feeling like I have to do so much work to live life.
I can see that experience cannot be different from what it is, and regardless of what it looks like, it's not right or wrong. I was in this different mindset of exploring whatever is present, and I guess the disconfort of these past few days pulled me into this seeking again trying to run away from my experience and lacking clarity to deal with it.

So what is the evidence that you believe you are an agent in control of things that can choose and experience

The more I look the less I see control. It's like you mentioned, there seems to be some agency, but it's not like I can chose to feel a certain way, or I can push away a bad sensation, or even chose the thoughts and narrative I live. This past week has shown me over and over, as I was completly in a place I didnt want to be but was unnable to do anything about it, even the will to do something was not showing up as it usually do. It feels like I am watching the movie of my life, but I am involved in in the movie, feeling it.

[Elad]

This sounds good to me Cesar...

Let's just continue to let this unfold and also keep gently looking sometimes what/where is this seeming someone who is watching and feeling the life... What/where is that more then a tought or a taking something that is just what it is, and believing it equals the I-thought/word. If the looking/inquiring feels forced or rigid, leave it... Let it just happen when it feels curious or genuine or spontaneous etc.