Male from Finland

[graceabounds]

Also….

This passenger exercice was happening by itself already when I was raporting peace, joy and gratitude. I was a passenger on local train and it was a very wonderful experience to sit 100 km/h going underground to work just experiencing everything.

Experiencing everything is available at any moment…
:)

And peace will continue to emerge alongside this as there is no need for anything to be different from what is.

So certainly continue this experiencing!

[Tuoli]

Hello,

Perhaps this is lost in translation but in English, 'seems' is what we would call a hedge word. It isn't certain. It leaves room for doubt.

This is exactly why I used the term "seems". Let me elaborate. Long long time ago I left seeking the truth in science because I undertood the limits of human knowledge. Decartes went deep in this and all he could be sure of was that he thinks and there for is.

How would I know for example if there's higher self like is theorised in spitualism? It could be in control. It could see things from 11th dimension and I can only comprehend 3 and a half down here. Maybe I could be part of god that is in absolute control and all that is. I don't know. So I must be humble and say it SEEMS that there is no one in control with my very limited sences and undertanding. Maybe thoughts that are acted upon come from the controller? I know nothing. How something could be known in 100% certainty?

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?
A: No they pop up like thoughts.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event?
A: It's continum of events related to your text.
Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?
A: no
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’?
A: no
Have you seen this function in action?
A: Yes, they are thoughts that are acted upon.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
A: no
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the ‘choosing’.
But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose'?
A: Feelings don't choose. Choosing just happends.

[graceabounds]

Hello :)

How would I know for example if there's higher self like is theorised in spitualism? It could be in control. It could see things from 11th dimension and I can only comprehend 3 and a half down here. Maybe I could be part of god that is in absolute control and all that is. I don't know. So I must be humble and say it SEEMS that there is no one in control with my very limited sences and undertanding. Maybe thoughts that are acted upon come from the controller? I know nothing. How something could be known in 100% certainty?

Yes.
How all of THIS happens is unknowable, a mystery.
The intention of the question was to unravel the separate self from the doing.
What do you see, hear, taste or smell right now? Is there any interpretation needed for these experiences to be real?

Sit quietly and observe. LOOK. The content of thoughts will be there but they are not going to be able to provide an answer:
What IS known for certain in this moment?

Love,
Becca

[Tuoli]

Hi Becca, usually I get email when you reply but this time I didn't. Luckily came to check if there's a reply anyway...

What do you see, hear, taste or smell right now?
A: I see winter wonderland from window, hear the fridge and air ventilation, taste and smell the morning coffee.
Is there any interpretation needed for these experiences to be real?
A: The interpretation comes naturally. It's needed to operate in "the world". Otherwise one would be like a baby that needs to be taken care of because one wouldn't know couch from ass and coffee mug from table. But when sitting here, interpretation is not needed for experiencing to happend or it to be real.

Sit quietly and observe. LOOK. The content of thoughts will be there but they are not going to be able to provide an answer:
What IS known for certain in this moment?
A: Because there is this experience, I am, madam.

[Tuoli]

...and before this I gets questioned, there is someone or something whom the experiences unfold. There is something because of this instead of nothing.

[graceabounds]

Hi,

Glad you checked for a post! If you don’t get the notification again this time check the wrench icon at the top of the thread next to the post reply button to ensure you are still subscribed.

There is something here in what you have communicated we need to look at very sincerely.

It sounds like maybe you are confident and comfortable that there is an experiencer which is you?

If this is the case, there is no reason to inquire further for now…

This is not a normal conversation or debate… This whole process is based on the premise that YOU have sense that something is unclear in the feeling of separation/doer/experiencer and YOU want help to see through it. Fully and completely.

If so, YOU must keep questioning by yourself, doing the work, intensely: My thoughts say there is someone rather then just experience, but is this actually direct experience??? Your answers will display that you do not rest comfortably with the belief in the self.

You then keep looking to see through the illusion of self like your hair is on fire - with a metaphor from the Buddha.

So which way is it? Are you comfortable with your perspective, as it is, that you are the experiencer, or do you feel a true internal calling to question it? To ask with all your heart: how is the illusion of a separate me in control still maintained?

With love,
Becca

[Tuoli]

Hello,

There seems to be miscommunication here and it's in the self that is in control. To be absolutely clear that is not my experience. As thoughts are experienced, they cannot be me. In same way as sences are experienced, they are not me either. Neti, neti.

What I don't comprehend is how can experience experince itself as that seems to be implicated here. It's like saying color is experiencing color and breeze breeze. They are experienced here. That experience of experiencing happening here cannot be denied. If that cannot be called the self then maybe bodymind is good term for this localized experience? Or maybe I am really a lost cause? It could be, I don't know.🤷🏼‍♂️

[graceabounds]

Hi,

Thanks for the clarification. It is an exercise in articulating the incomprehensible: all of these pointers must pass through the filter of thought before Deep Looking can take place, and then again a deciphering of direct experience must happen in order to communicate back here.

What I don't comprehend is how can experience experince itself as that seems to be implicated here.

That experience of experiencing happening here cannot be denied.

Experience experiencing is a subject/object relationship. There is only experiencing.

Practice with language for now. Today as you go about the day play with verb-ing only.
I am walking down the street becomes walking.
I am eating some soup becomes savoring.
My shoulder aches becomes prickling.

What differences are noticed practicing this exercise? Is anything lost?

Or maybe I am really a lost cause? It could be, I don't know.

Not a lost cause, just not clear… yet. It will be VERY clear when it is clear. Then there will be no need for these contortions of the mind to understand. Seeking will cease.

Let’s go back a bit:

one wouldn't know couch from ass

Sitting down right now, can you tell exactly where ass ends and couch begins? Feel into it.

If that cannot be called the self then maybe bodymind is good term for this localized experience?

If there is a border between bodymind and experience it may as well be called Santa Claus.

Look at an object. Look out and keep your focus out with it. Really Look. See if you can catch the subtle moment when attention shifts: a little motion in the eyes when the seeing turns inward as if to check in on what is being experienced. Is this the bodymind or experiencing happening here you are referring to? Who or what is there to be inquired of? Was it at all necessary for seeing?

One more thing:
Set aside all the teachings, all the concepts, all the accumulated knowledge and philosophies for just a little while. They cannot take you any further. Weighing what you may have picked up along the way against what you may think this is or isn’t is only a distraction.

You are one Look away. It is already right here.

With love,
Becca

[Tuoli]

Hello,

What differences are noticed practicing this exercise? Is anything lost?
A: It's quite suttle. I think there's more experiencing and less mind stuff. When things are not taken personally, there is less psykological suffering. That can be lost.

Sitting down right now, can you tell exactly where ass ends and couch begins? Feel into it.
A: I don't know couch from ass exactly.

Is this the bodymind or experiencing happening here you are referring to? Who or what is there to be inquired of? Was it at all necessary for seeing?
A: It's strange. Seeing is happening without seer. It's just seeing. But after it can be described happening here nevertheless. With this body's eyes that are in this head that is attached to body with neck. It's not necessary.

[graceabounds]

Hello Esa,

It's quite suttle.

Yes, we are getting into subtler and subtler territory now.
What we are aiming for is to hone in on what you are believing on an unconscious level, bring it to light, and look in direct experience to determine if it is an illusion. Thinking back on what you wrote a few days ago, I agree that we cannot know what this all may look like as seen from the eleventh dimension. We will not find ultimate knowledge here, only freedom.

When things are not taken personally, there is less psykological suffering.

Things are not and never were personal. :) I resonate with this verbiage from the LU FAQ page:

Will I never suffer again?
The answer depends on how we define suffering. If you hope to enter a life of unending bliss and only happy feelings, you’re going to be disappointed. Life will go on as before. All sorts of emotions will continue to arise. Yet, without the concept of a central self to stick to, how can there truly be suffering?

It's strange. Seeing is happening without seer. It's just seeing. But after it can be described happening here nevertheless. With this body's eyes that are in this head that is attached to body with neck.

Yes, it is strange. And also so simple. Just seeing.

What do you mean by 'after'? What is happening in the gap between just seeing and the description?

Have a look around you. You can see colors of the room, of your 'feet’, of your ‘knees’, of your ‘chest’ and perhaps of your 'hands'.
Now point a finger towards the place where others see your head and face.

What do you see? Do you see your face? Do you see your head?
Do you see anything at all there - any colors, shapes, or any movement?
Looking into the place where others see your face, do you see colors or shapes there?
What do you find?

Much love,
Becca

[Tuoli]

Namaste,

What do you mean by 'after'? What is happening in the gap between just seeing and the description?
A: I think. Or here is better to use term thoughts gets experienced!

What do you see? Do you see your face? Do you see your head?
Do you see anything at all there - any colors, shapes, or any movement?
A: Well, only thing I can see is my nose, little bit of the eyesocket surroundings and some facial hair.
Looking into the place where others see your face, do you see colors or shapes there?
What do you find?
A: There are some shape and colour on those things described in previous answer. (I never got the idea of headlesness that I looked into in my seeking history.)

[Tuoli]

Hello,

I will also write little offtopic text about 11th dimensional being just for fun as it interested me before and it seemed to interest you too. I spent some time thinking looking into it years ago... this can just be skipped hopefully this is not scorned upon here. This is not written to start conversation or anything.

One dimension is a dot. Two dimensions is a plane.
This type of 3 dimensional being is experiencing it's life as happenings in four dimensional spacetime. Like a line on 4th dimensional plane.

4th dimensional being could experience it's death and birth and all the moments between at will. I like to think choises as an illusion in 5th dimensional space as all the possible happenings in every moment are happening in parallel unviverses and we are just experiencing them from our third dimensional perspective as different choises and situations that we get to experience. It's just this version's point of view.

5th dimensional could see all the possible outcomes in every moment and choose from them which one to experience. 6th dimensional being could go and experience any time or place in our universe's spacetime. 7th dimensional being could experience all the possible lives and moments it could have. And sofort until 11th dimensional being could not just experience all the possible spacetimes in all the possible multiverses as one but also all the different kind of universes and their multiverses that could be with their different physical laws as one point.

[graceabounds]

Hi!

Interesting.
To also flow off topic, I have had experiences that have certainly bent the ‘rules’ of third dimensional reality.

And as you say:

It's just this version's point of view.

This is where we operate. Here. Now. But when here now the most boring 3D wall in the world can become the most interesting wall-portal in the universe. :)

The gateless gate is not real but to me the crossing feels as if it may as well have been a portal to another dimensionality. Time especially is experienced differently.

But this is all a diversion because no amount of theorizing will get you across this thing that doesn’t exist. The way that has been working is to Look, over and over with honesty and commitment.

So, let’s do that. Look.

Is there I?

Love,
Becca

[Tuoli]

Good day Becca

Is there I?

At this point I have to give a no answer. And by no answer I mean yes and no answer. I read from here and elsewhere that when you are done, you are done. No question about it. At this moment there's no I. But even it's just a thought, I believe it to be true that when this bodymind is in challenging or exciting situation, there very much is somebody to get offended, sad, cocky and sofort as they are experienced. 

For example I had this weekend persisting thought that I knew to be just a thought about loosing the new job from a mistake that didn't really happend but was a possibility nevertheless. It was aknowledged as such but it caused very negative and sad self attacking mindstates. As it was watched and experienced, it was resisted because it was unpleasentely sad. It's quite stupid to resist what is. I believe that wouldn't happend without somekind of self. Maybe it's resisting the resisting of what is? There's no self in control. It's obvious. I cannot find I but it seems to funktion somehow as this kind of existence is still happening. I really don't know. I doesn't know? When looking the I it's not found.

[graceabounds]

Hi Esa,

When looking the I it's not found.

The absence of the answer is the answer.

I read from here and elsewhere that when you are done, you are done. No question about it.

Is there a self that is thinking 'not done', or is it just a thought?
(That said, I am here for the duration.)

At this moment there's no I.

This moment is all there is.

But even it's just a thought, I believe it to be true that when this bodymind is in challenging or exciting situation, there very much is somebody to get offended, sad, cocky and sofort as they are experienced.

For example I had this weekend persisting thought that I knew to be just a thought about loosing the new job from a mistake that didn't really happend but was a possibility nevertheless. It was aknowledged as such but it caused very negative and sad self attacking mindstates. As it was watched and experienced, it was resisted because it was unpleasentely sad. It's quite stupid to resist what is. I believe that wouldn't happend without somekind of self. Maybe it's resisting the resisting of what is? There's no self in control. It's obvious. I cannot find I but it seems to funktion somehow as this kind of existence is still happening. I really don't know. I doesn't know?

Great noticing. It is all thought. All of what you wrote here, you are doing the real work in this process. Noticing resistance, noticing emotions, noticing thoughts, and other thoughts, and illusory self-referential thoughts. You are in the turbulence, right behind the thing itself, just doing battle with all of the hot air it displaces, all it takes is one moment to enter the slipstream and be free.

All of these challenging and exciting situations are a beautiful opportunity. :) LOOK directly into path of most resistance.

Bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
Then bring up a thought about a character labelled "stranger".
Compare these thoughts.
Is there a difference in these thoughts?
Is there a true difference or is it just different content?

Now, bring up a thought about a character labelled "friend".
After that, look at a thought about the character labelled "me”.
Is there a difference?
Is there anything special about thoughts with the content "me-character"?

When a concept is based on other concepts, does it make a thought less confused, or closer to reality, compared to thoughts that are less conceptually entangled? Aren't thoughts just thoughts, no matter what they are based on?

Keep going!

love,
Becca