Ready to dive in...

[Derek]

What happens in your direct experience when "identification" happens? Look closely at how attention, feelings, and words interact. What order do they happen in?

There is nothing new to break through to here. All we're doing is looking at how things actually are.

[ixturtle]

Look closely at how attention, feelings, and words interact. What order do they happen in?

Attention (mind) moves towards feeling, mind labels feeling "me" or "mine" (as noted in this string, attention seems to move briefly away from feeling to the mind and back again), which seems to reinforce feeling.

[Derek]

Yes, that's it! The attention gets drawn into a feeling, the labeling of it as "I," "me, "mine" happens, and the feeling is then magnified in importance. You've seen how the trick works!

So is there a "self" involved in making all this happen???

[ixturtle]

So is there a "self" involved in making all this happen???

No, just an annoying conditioned mind, much like the wizard of oz-- projecting an all important self when really its all just smoke and mirrors.

Even seeing what's behind the curtains though, something isn't penetrating... it's like the mind still thinks that the wizard is real in spite of all the evidence to the contrary.

Do I just let it, and see what clarity unfolds? Or do I keep pushing? Or is it even my choice? Ha ha ha...

[Derek]

The "self" is indeed an illusion created by smoke and mirrors.

So what evidence, if any, does the mind still have that the "self" is real?

[ixturtle]

So what evidence, if any, does the mind still have that the "self" is real?

Wow you are a patient person! (Or rather, patience is happening...)

It's all stuff you've heard before...
1) awareness itself...who/what is aware of this body, of this mind?
2) body sensations... When I look at body sensations generally, I can see the difference between actual sensations and thoughts about them and can let go of ownership. At the heart, I can see this difference too (when I look), but I just noticed that the implicit assumption that it's mine is already there even before the thought, EVEN before the feeling, which makes me think that the sensation itself is directly driven by the mind. In any case, it just feels like me-- and not a very good feeling of me either. I know we've gone through this not once, but twice before (at least). I guess it goes back to my initial post: just wanting my heart to be at ease with what is. I must be in some sort of catch 22 here...
3) who the heck is wanting to be "liberated"? Just this silly ol' conditioned mind? In which case the mind appears to be in battle: two steps forward, three steps backward. Even if it is as Eloratea said, consciousness looking to liberate itself from little me, it just seems like little me (the conditioned mind) is the one showing up here...

[Cam-RT]

At the heart, I can see this difference too (when I look), but I just noticed that the implicit assumption that it's mine is already there even before the thought, EVEN before the feeling, which makes me think that the sensation itself is directly driven by the mind. In any case, it just feels like me-- and not a very good feeling of me either. I know we've gone through this not once, but twice before (at least).

This may seem funny, but it almost appears like you're having a tug of war with a ghost!

Either let go, or drag it out into the light of the truth and inquire... "Is all this crap true in real life??"

[Cam-RT]

Hello again!!

I apologize if I may have shed any confusion on the "letting go" part... Letting go was meant to point at letting go of "The Self" ... :^)

[Eloratea]

awareness itself...who/what is aware of this body, of this mind?

Would you be free if you would get answer on this question?
Do you think that truth, that who you really are, or what really is - is in words or thoughts?

[ixturtle]

Would you be free if you would get answer on this question?

Good point. I can't imagine more thoughts ever leading me to freedom. All they ever do is drive me round and round inside this cage of an imagined self. Thank you also Cam-RT for both your question, "Is all this crap true in real life??" as well your "signatures" re., reality always winning, courage and not giving up.

What happens if for one day I dismiss every thought as an illusion (including this one, ha ha ha)?

[Derek]

Good idea.

Drop all thoughts about "awareness itself" or "who is aware." They are just passing thoughts.

As for body sensations, they are only passing experiences. They come and they go.

Questions about who wants to be liberated are also just passing thoughts.

Is there anything left?

[ixturtle]

Is there anything left?

Passing sensations. Passing thoughts. That's it, huh.

Feeling lethargic and grumpy and glum all day. Passing sensations, passing thoughts. What will tomorrow bring?

[Derek]

Were there stories in the mind producing this glum mood? Were they "I" stories?

[ixturtle]

Were there stories in the mind producing this glum mood? Were they "I" stories?

Yes. At the moment just doing my best to remind myself that they are imagined stories about an imagined "I". The "reminding", which has a taste of seeing in it, is not quite the same as SEEING. There's some associated softening though.

[Cam-RT]

Good Morning!

Feeling lethargic and grumpy and glum all day. Passing sensations, passing thoughts. What will tomorrow bring?

You realize that's the body making a physical connection to the self, all these negative thoughts can trace right back to it's source....NOTHING. This is one thing to keep in mind even after liberation is that the body doesn't lie if it perceives something as a threat or a insurmountable challenge it WILL throw these feelings out to distract you from looking and seeing The Truth...