The Gate

Thanks for the update Tim, nice to hear from you, and glad to hear life is flowing well.

Okay, lets see if we can both sharpen the understanding, trusting this is part of how you move as you say, and then go beyond it. Seeing is really beyond words and concepts.

1) Can awareness in any real way be found separate from the rest of experience?

2) Is there something you still take to be you, that you experience as you? If yes, what is it?

3) What can see or not see, be smart or not smart, get it or lose it?

Final words for now: I recommend writing often, don't wait to have something clever or profound or special or even new to share. Just share what is seen and felt and observed, what is there and shows up effortlessly and without choice, in response to my questions and exercises. Then the process will do itself. We can't control this anyways. You can't do this. The discovery happens through noticing how experience unfolds by itself, regardless of preferences and judgements (that also happen by themselves). The questions and exercises plus whatever comes up in you as you work with it, will show that. Doesn't matter how stuck or confused or repetitive it seems. In fact those are good doors to help recognize that there is no self in control whatsoever.

Sorry I didn't reply!!! I've been traveling an awful lot, then had a lot of work to catch up on when I got back. (Also my dog died, and wife had to go away for a couple of months, Mum was hospitalized...so its been pretty difficult here)

But the biggest reason was I simply could not answer for the life of me. I was pondering the questions to answer honestly and plainly but I just couldn't find an answer. I still can't. I honestly don't know how to reply. So I'll just respond as best I can.

Sorry for the delay - I do know this works better when we stay in touch regularly.

So I will try to reply as best I can.

1) Can awareness in any real way be found separate from the rest of experience?

No, it's all one thing as I see it. I'm not even sure what it would mean if it was separate. It's completely one and the same.

2) Is there something you still take to be you, that you experience as you? If yes, what is it?

No. That is my honest answer when I look. I don't see "something"...i don't see or feel anything. But it's hard to trust what I see - what if there are things there I don't see or am somehow overlooking?

I also have pause to say this because at times I do get frustrated or embarrassed - so surely someone must be there who's feeling those things? This question is posed as a Yes / No question. If however it could be answered on a sliding scale, I would be more comfortable about saying there was less of me here than when I started.

3) What can see or not see, be smart or not smart, get it or lose it?

Nothing or nobody. These things would happen regardless I feel (seeing or not, being smart or not)...there doesn't have to be an "I" here.

I just feel a huge boundless space (if I had to say there is anything here), and its hard to ascribe any characteristics to it - it's just empty, ever-present, expansive and peaceful I suppose.

I'm not sure really how to express it, because I'm not 100% sure what is going on.

Hi Tim, good to hear from you!

Sorry I didn't reply!!! I've been traveling an awful lot, then had a lot of work to catch up on when I got back. (Also my dog died, and wife had to go away for a couple of months, Mum was hospitalized...so its been pretty difficult here)

Wow, sorry for the loss of your dog. This is a lot. I respect your taking space for that.

Thank you Elad, I appreciate that. We all really miss her, she was such a kind and gentle soul.

But the biggest reason was I simply could not answer for the life of me. I was pondering the questions to answer honestly and plainly but I just couldn't find an answer. I still can't. I honestly don't know how to reply. So I'll just respond as best I can.

Sorry for the delay - I do know this works better when we stay in touch regularly.

So I will try to reply as best I can.

I hear you. It is helpful in this process to just send the best you have again and again, and if you get "corrected" or you are stuck or repetitive let it be a fruitful part of the process. Just see the ego that comes up in relation to that, fear of failure, need to be seen a partiular way and see yourself in a partiuclar way, etc etc. And just see it and look if any of it refers to any true self. This is part of how this process works itself into the deeper emotional levels.

I guess I don't mind looking like a fool, or "failing" - but I do need to make the time commitment. My work is brutal - and I just need to carve some space out. Also i know my replies don't need to be well thought out - so i can just type whatever is coming up....which shouldn't be too difficult!

1) Can awareness in any real way be found separate from the rest of experience?

No, it's all one thing as I see it. I'm not even sure what it would mean if it was separate. It's completely one and the same.

Yes, clear.

2) Is there something you still take to be you, that you experience as you? If yes, what is it?

No. That is my honest answer when I look. I don't see "something"...i don't see or feel anything. But it's hard to trust what I see - what if there are things there I don't see or am somehow overlooking?

I also have pause to say this because at times I do get frustrated or embarrassed - so surely someone must be there who's feeling those things? This question is posed as a Yes / No question. If however it could be answered on a sliding scale, I would be more comfortable about saying there was less of me here than when I started.

No. For embarrassment does there need to be an "embarraster", for the wind to blow does there need to be a "winder"? These moments of embarrassment, anxiety, etc. are perfect moments to look if there actually is a self that is having them, or just an illusion and associated feelings.

Hmmm....this is subtle. I never considered this. To be honest, emotions are very fleeting and not sticky....and I don't think "Oh I am so embarrassed, what am i going to do, how will i live through this etc etc" then dwell on it. it's like perhaps an old muscle memory - a reflex action that occurs. When i say it's not sticky - i mean its there but kind of independent from me. Like I don't feel washed in that emotion. it's more like a weak shadow of what it might used to have been.

All that is to say...yes, i don't think i feel there is a self to which these feelings happen to. They're just kind of there, but then float off again. yes, almost like the wind, just arising, then falling away - but yes i don't feel a great connection to them.

3) What can see or not see, be smart or not smart, get it or lose it?

Nothing or nobody. These things would happen regardless I feel (seeing or not, being smart or not)...there doesn't have to be an "I" here.

Right clear. When seeing that, how does it feel? Just in terms of sensations and feelings, not in terms of explanation.

Oooo i find that a very powerful question! I feel deep joy and a sensation of calm like "everything is ok, and always will be"

This feels like a new sensation, and its comforting, I'd just like to stay here. (After sending this message I'm going to sit in this space longer!)

Right, would it be fair to say "boundless space" is at best a "pointer" or a "metaphor"?

Does words capture the whole? Do you need words to capture the whole in order to experience the whole?

From where I am, "boundless space" is literal - its the predominant (or only?) feeling which is always here - its feels limitless, infinite, without beginning or end. its just this expansiveness which is ever-present. i feel it all day if i stop for a minute and look.

Thank you Elad. All the best.

Hmmm....this is subtle. I never considered this. To be honest, emotions are very fleeting and not sticky....and I don't think "Oh I am so embarrassed, what am i going to do, how will i live through this etc etc" then dwell on it. it's like perhaps an old muscle memory - a reflex action that occurs. When i say it's not sticky - i mean its there but kind of independent from me. Like I don't feel washed in that emotion. it's more like a weak shadow of what it might used to have been.

All that is to say...yes, i don't think i feel there is a self to which these feelings happen to. They're just kind of there, but then float off again. yes, almost like the wind, just arising, then falling away - but yes i don't feel a great connection to them.

Right clear. When seeing that, how does it feel? Just in terms of sensations and feelings, not in terms of explanation.

Oooo i find that a very powerful question! I feel deep joy and a sensation of calm like "everything is ok, and always will be"

This feels like a new sensation, and its comforting, I'd just like to stay here. (After sending this message I'm going to sit in this space longer!)

From where I am, "boundless space" is literal - its the predominant (or only?) feeling which is always here - its feels limitless, infinite, without beginning or end. its just this expansiveness which is ever-present. i feel it all day if i stop for a minute and look.

Hi Elad!

Hmmm....this is subtle. I never considered this. To be honest, emotions are very fleeting and not sticky....and I don't think "Oh I am so embarrassed, what am i going to do, how will i live through this etc etc" then dwell on it. it's like perhaps an old muscle memory - a reflex action that occurs. When i say it's not sticky - i mean its there but kind of independent from me. Like I don't feel washed in that emotion. it's more like a weak shadow of what it might used to have been.

All that is to say...yes, i don't think i feel there is a self to which these feelings happen to. They're just kind of there, but then float off again. yes, almost like the wind, just arising, then falling away - but yes i don't feel a great connection to them.

Why do you write "I don't think there is a self that has them, rather then "there is no self that has them"? Any doubt?

I feel I'm in unknown territory. I don't feel a heavy self, but I don't quite obviously feel unequivocally "no self". I've read people don't even have to ask because it is so obvious there is no self...but i don't feel that complete loss yet.

Also I might perceive no or less self, but I'm also not 100% sure that I'm not deluding myself somehow. Even intentionally or unintentionally - perception is a funny thing.

I don't feel comfortable unilaterally declaring that - when I haven't that slightest clue what I am doing!

Right clear. When seeing that, how does it feel? Just in terms of sensations and feelings, not in terms of explanation.

Oooo i find that a very powerful question! I feel deep joy and a sensation of calm like "everything is ok, and always will be"

This feels like a new sensation, and its comforting, I'd just like to stay here. (After sending this message I'm going to sit in this space longer!)

Beautiful, yes, just enjoy this...

From where I am, "boundless space" is literal - its the predominant (or only?) feeling which is always here - its feels limitless, infinite, without beginning or end. its just this expansiveness which is ever-present. i feel it all day if i stop for a minute and look.

Hmm

Is this boundless space you or not you or neither or both?


Well, i don't really feel I know what is "me" - so the only thing I feel which means EVERYTHING is this huge vast emptiness/fullness/peace/silence/infinity. I wouldn't say both - all there is this ... thing (Awareness? not sure what is the right term, but it ever-present, all pervading, and just here, always, inside and out of me...there is no beginning or en d of it)

Is it mental or physical or neither or both?


It feels physical. I'm very hesitant to say "mental" means because I have zero self-talk or thoughts. Maybe every once in a while... but I have almost zero unconscious mental activity (ongoing self chatter / thinking out loud / voice in my head type thing). Thinking and problem solving still happen, but it just arises.

Does it include everything in it or is there actually no "it" that is separate from everything/THIS?

no, it doesn't feel like it includes everything. that would there is it and everything.

there's no "it" is separate from - it is all there is. only that. only it, everything, everywhere.because it's only this one thing,

Remember! In this inquiry we don't look for answers in the mind, including its mystical thoughts and accompanying emotions. We look for answers in reality - what is direct seen, felt, smelled, heard, tasted plus the noticing the movement and nature of thought.

I feel I'm in unknown territory. I don't feel a heavy self, but I don't quite obviously feel unequivocally "no self". I've read people don't even have to ask because it is so obvious there is no self...but i don't feel that complete loss yet.

Also I might perceive no or less self, but I'm also not 100% sure that I'm not deluding myself somehow. Even intentionally or unintentionally - perception is a funny thing.

I don't feel comfortable unilaterally declaring that - when I haven't that slightest clue what I am doing!

Hi Tim, sounds like things are unfolding beautifully. Let's nudge some more.

I feel I'm in unknown territory. I don't feel a heavy self, but I don't quite obviously feel unequivocally "no self". I've read people don't even have to ask because it is so obvious there is no self...but i don't feel that complete loss yet.

Also I might perceive no or less self, but I'm also not 100% sure that I'm not deluding myself somehow. Even intentionally or unintentionally - perception is a funny thing.

I don't feel comfortable unilaterally declaring that - when I haven't that slightest clue what I am doing!

Do you imagine that this resolve in a way where even intellectual doubt is impossible? As if we here are capable of or need to resolve intellectually the questions al the great philosopher and scientists never resolved and agreed on...

Could it be that this doubt is not about that something is missing, can you look what might be there underneath emotionally or in old beliefs about yourself?

My feeling is this is really not intellectual. I have no problem mentally accepting it. In fact i embrace it wholeheartedly. I have no arguments against it. I have zero problem not reconciling this mentally. (My work is highly mental with having to rationalize everything, so I'm very ready to get on board with something I have no need to rationalize!) I'm ready to leave the mind behind !

Also I love koans, which break or split the mind - the mind just can't handle it - and it's actually one of my favorite things...watching my mind not compute.

But yes, the fact remains there is a blocker here. I won't accept it. Why?

Could it be that this doubt is not about that something is missing, can you look what might be there underneath emotionally or in old beliefs about yourself?

Yes, i feel this is nearer to it. I don't actually know the answer, but just thinking out loud. Perhaps i feel i don't deserve it, it is too special for me - and i'm just a nobody, no one special ...and why would no one special deserve something special?

Well, that statement has two parts: the "someone" and the "deserve"

And this connects back to the exercise you gave me. Who has to see or not see? Who has to be smart or not smart? Who gets it or loses it?

And equally I can ask who deserves or doesn't deserve?

Continuing to think out loud, i tell myself (excuse the unfiltered stream of consciousness!):

deserve or not deserve is irrelevant. as was trying or not. as was getting and losing it was.

who is here to deserve or not. no one. so that is a moot point. irrelevant.

and as far as "deserve" goes - this is always here, and available to everyone.... it's here, ands its yours if you want it. and even if you don't want it, its still here. in fact you can't not have it.

in fact its harder to work to not see it and reject it, than it is too accept and welcome it.

why can't you just say no one is here?

perhaps it seems presumptuous or impolite....or too self-centered...

so ... something about declaring myself as having no -self seems very egotistical and self-centered ! lol

again constructs... if i feel no self, which i do...then nothing wrong with saying that - thats what this is about just saying what you see directly.

(again i feel like i'm almost talking myself into it. but honestly i'm not - I'm trying to lay out the facts and clear things up. But if no self is a shift, then i don't feel shifted....!

but yes. i do see that this is available to me now with no doubts standing in the way..





And regarding direct experience -

You say you would not call it mental, that's clear. But would it not also be equally a mental fabrication to call it material, as in something separate from the mental? Can you find a real place where material and mental, outside and inside, separate? If yes, where exactly in direct experience is the dividing line found?

Yes, you're right. It is a mental invention to call it separate from mental - i don't see a place where it all is divided at all.


Here is some inspiration from the historical Buddha (Bahiya sutra):


"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

Beautiful beautiful

Please look:

1) Thoughts about being special or not special. Do they refer to anything else then thoughts and sensations? Is there in any way a receiver or experiencer of them?

2) Sometimes doubt is actually mostly just a sensation that needs to be felt, and it has nothing to do with real doubt about how things are. In that case, what is most helpful is to leave it, and just see if the doubt then goes away by itself, the way that the mud will fall to the bottom of a glass, if you don't shake it.

Let me know how things continue to unfold.

Please look:

1) Thoughts about being special or not special. Do they refer to anything else then thoughts and sensations? Is there in any way a receiver or experiencer of them?

Is there in any way a receiver or experiencer of them?

2) Sometimes doubt is actually mostly just a sensation that needs to be felt, and it has nothing to do with real doubt about how things are. In that case, what is most helpful is to leave it, and just see if the doubt then goes away by itself, the way that the mud will fall to the bottom of a glass, if you don't shake it.

Let me know how things continue to unfold.

"Then, Bāhiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bāhiya, there is no you in connection with that. When there is no you in connection with that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."

No, I don't feel like there is a solid receptacle. I don't feel anything is sticking to me - rather stuff is happening, but it goes through me, or it just doesn't register.

But I know there was once a very strong identity here, it now seems very distant. But I feel like I can't say the self has "dropped away"

Beautiful Tim!

How about answering me every day (as the norm) until we finish?

I'll do my best! I love your conviction :D

Just let go of it being great. Give whatever is there. This will be good practice.

You mean let go of my answers being great or expecting a great experience? I will do both because I feel like they both apply to some degree!

No, I don't feel like there is a solid receptacle. I don't feel anything is sticking to me - rather stuff is happening, but it goes through me, or it just doesn't register.

Look, can you see this thought is based on thinking, not direct experience?

I find this point hard, because this interaction seems to require some degree of thoughts (or at least putting things into words). When I don't think, everything is just unsegmented and undescribed - just there and as it is basically. Unfiltered and unanalyzed.

Can you find any "you" that experience need to go through?

The answer is nearer to no than yes. I feel like I'm in such an unknowing state that the question feels preposterous.

Can you find a "seer" in seeing, a "hearer" in hearing? Where exactly?

No - these things happen directly. I'm not really sure what a seer or hearer would be doing?

But I know there was once a very strong identity here, it now seems very distant. But I feel like I can't say the self has "dropped away"

Things are unfolding beautifully by themselves.

This is not about knowing ontologically or metaphysically that there is no self. We don't know shit.


And a functional sense of self is part of being human, I.e. we can identify.

So:

Sense of self - yes

A real separate self experiecing, chosing and doing - no.

I feel this strongly - like when my fingers are typing this, or when I'm walking or driving. I feel its happening all without the interaction of a self....if that's what the question is. There's actually a lot which I don't really feel in control of - but that doesn't prevent it from happening perfectly.


What we do here is all about beliefs and direct experience, not about some ultimate knowledge.

What is the evidence for that you still believe you have a separate self?

I don't think I believe that. My only inclination is let go of beliefs. I see them as fabricated and arbitrary...so I don't cling to or make beliefs....I think! Equally I don't try to do the opposite either. So its just a way of letting go or at least not holding anything too tightly.

And what is the evidence for that there is a separate self in fact?

Directly, here and now, I don't have any evidence of this.

How about answering me every day (as the norm) until we finish?

I'll do my best! I love your conviction :D

Just let go of it being great. Give whatever is there. This will be good practice.

You mean let go of my answers being great or expecting a great experience? I will do both because I feel like they both apply to some degree!

Look, can you see this thought is based on thinking, not direct experience?

I find this point hard, because this interaction seems to require some degree of thoughts (or at least putting things into words). When I don't think, everything is just unsegmented and undescribed - just there and as it is basically. Unfiltered and unanalyzed.

Can you find any "you" that experience need to go through?

The answer is nearer to no than yes. I feel like I'm in such an unknowing state that the question feels preposterous.

Can you find a "seer" in seeing, a "hearer" in hearing? Where exactly?

No - these things happen directly. I'm not really sure what a seer or hearer would be doing?

But I know there was once a very strong identity here, it now seems very distant. But I feel like I can't say the self has "dropped away"

And a functional sense of self is part of being human, I.e. we can identify.

So:

Sense of self - yes

A real separate self experiecing, chosing and doing - no.[/color]

I feel this strongly - like when my fingers are typing this, or when I'm walking or driving. I feel its happening all without the interaction of a self....if that's what the question is. There's actually a lot which I don't really feel in control of - but that doesn't prevent it from happening perfectly.

What we do here is all about beliefs and direct experience, not about some ultimate knowledge.

What is the evidence for that you still believe you have a separate self?

I don't think I believe that. My only inclination is let go of beliefs. I see them as fabricated and arbitrary...so I don't cling to or make beliefs....I think! Equally I don't try to do the opposite either. So its just a way of letting go or at least not holding anything too tightly.

And what is the evidence for that there is a separate self in fact?

Directly, here and now, I don't have any evidence of this.