Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

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WhoIsAsking
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby WhoIsAsking » Sat Jan 13, 2024 3:26 pm

Good morning, good afternoon!
So can you now say with 100% certainty that there is no inherent self?
Yes, 100%. And anything that looks to be that inherent self is quickly seen to be just thought, mental image, etc.
What about inside/outside?
No distinction. Thoughts and feelings are no more inside than the sights, sounds, and sensations that all make up this reality. And there are no separate things, people, world outside... again, just more thoughts, feelings, sights, sounds, etc.
What is awareness?
Just another thought (and this has been one of the most unexpected discoveries of this process). Not only can no awareness space be found, but there certainly isn't an "enlightened me" living as the awareness in which everything else arises
What is a body?
Also, just a thought. Where a body is expected, only sight, sensation, and thought are actually found

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Bluejay
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby Bluejay » Sat Jan 13, 2024 3:41 pm

Good stuff!

You sound clear enough to have passed the gateless gate as they call it.

Do you have anything else you want to cover right now or would you like to answer the final questions?

Also, remember that this is just the beginning of awakening :)

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WhoIsAsking
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby WhoIsAsking » Sat Jan 13, 2024 3:57 pm

I’m ready. Let’s do the final questions.


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Bluejay
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby Bluejay » Sat Jan 13, 2024 4:00 pm

Here you go!

Let me know if you have any questions and feel free to take your time.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe how decisions are made & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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WhoIsAsking
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby WhoIsAsking » Sat Jan 20, 2024 6:29 pm

I hope you've been well since we last spoke. These exercises were in the back of my mind all week, but it was good to dedicate some time to them today. Thank you for all the time you've put into this process over the last while. Greatly appreciated!
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? –
There is not. While it was once assumed that “I am” the thinker of the thoughts, the one who witnesses, who decides, who has intention… it is now seen that thoughts, and witnessing, and deciding, and intending all just arise. They arise alongside seeing, hearing, and other sensations. All just one arising, right here right now
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. –
The illusion of a separate self is the false belief that there is a separate me, apart from everything else that arises, living “in” this world, and distinct from it. Perhaps this starts in childhood, where the feeling of separate self may be of great value in the process of growing up, and finding a place in the world. I see now that it is just that – an illusion. Just thoughts, just stories, just beliefs… none needing to be believed, and certainly none taking shape as an actual separate being
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
The difference is subtle, but freeing. As if nothing has changed, but without the unnecessary story, everything is lighter, easier, more welcomed. I don’t have to be the spiritual being who is aware of this moment, accepting what is. Instead, this moment arises. That’s it. That’s enough. So freeing, so good.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? –
I wish I had a specific answer to this that felt authentic. But it was a steady, somewhat quick, but definitely gradual process. Illusion just continually dropped away. And former beliefs (that certainly still arise) are less sticky, less believed.
5) Describe how decisions are made & give examples from experience.
Decisions are made. They just are. I was out to breakfast this morning, and quickly the decision arose to order one of two dishes. But that decision stayed ambiguous. I recognized that, and was OK with that. When the waiter took my order, I (with curiosity) waited to hear which words would be spoken. As the food was ordered, the decision was made. Certainly not because “I” decided. It just happened
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Intention is another thought. It arises when it arises, how it arises, in whatever form it arises. And it departs when it departs. Intention to eat less and exercise more are almost a cliché, but perfectly illustrate how I am not a demigod whose intentions have divine power over the outside separate world. Intention to not eat after dinner arises. Sometimes it stays all night. Othertime, a new intention to go make a sandwich arises. Then there may (or may not) be a new thought which looks like either strengthening resolve, or giving in. But there’s no one doing the intention, and no one failing to have sufficient resolve.
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
Free will is just the belief in a separate entity with god-like powers outside of the normal realm of cause and effect. Did I freely decide to put off answering these questions for a week? Did I freely decide to finally answer them now? That would just be another thought. Right here, right now, this is just what’s happening.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
The idea of choice implies one thing chosen, out of multiple things that could have been chosen. Which can only take place in the realm of thought. In reality, there is only here and now, only this. There is no choice (and no chooser) outside of thought.
Describe control & give examples from experience.
Control is a thought about power, or a thought about cause and effect, or a thought about safety or strength or invulnerability. This morning, on the way to breakfast, I sat in the backseat while my son drove. I got a little carsick. So on the way back, I insisted on driving. It felt like I was in control, and insisting on that outcome. But that was just a thought, or a bundle of thoughts. In reality, on the way home there was thought (I don’t want to be sick again. I should drive. I’ll speak up and offer to drive), then speaking (Can I drive? I think that would be better for my stomach. Do you mind?), then driving. Where is the control? Where is the one in control? Can’t be found. Just an illusion.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
The very question implies separation. One thing making something else happen. But when all (including all seeing, hearing, moving, thinking, etc.) is seen as one, then happening equal reality, and reality equals happening. There is no making, outside of thoughts and stories, which themselves just appear as part of this oneness.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
The character of Jay is responsible for many things. And that’s good. But that just means that the complex thought of this character includes thoughts of responsibility, thoughts of cause and effect, thoughts of duty and obligation, thoughts of ‘people depending on me.’ All of which are good and beautiful. None of these thoughts needs to depart, or change (until they do). But they are all just thoughts.
6) Anything to add?
No. Just smiling as I type this, and happy to have had this experience. Reading the Liberation Unleased book twice over several years, and visiting the forum occasionally were both helpful. But having this focused dialogue with you took the understanding to the next level. Thank you!

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Bluejay
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby Bluejay » Sat Jan 20, 2024 6:40 pm

Thank you for your answers!

I'll now post these so other guides can give feedback or ask questions.

I'll be back.
But having this focused dialogue with you took the understanding to the next level. Thank you!
Glad to hear it's been helpful. It has been a pleasure talking to you :)

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Bluejay
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby Bluejay » Sun Jan 21, 2024 9:45 am

One guide asks:
In the last line he says, "having this focused dialogue with you took the understanding to the next level" -
so please ask: What is there to be understood?
And this: "former beliefs (that certainly still arise) are less sticky, less believed"
Please ask Jay: What former beliefs do you mean?

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WhoIsAsking
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby WhoIsAsking » Mon Jan 22, 2024 12:47 am

In the last line he says, "having this focused dialogue with you took the understanding to the next level" -
so please ask: What is there to be understood?
The biggest new understanding can better be called a seeing through of illusion... in particular, the illusion that I am the awareness in which all arises. The new understanding is that in direct experience, what I had thought to be 'awareness' was itself just a thought
And this: "former beliefs (that certainly still arise) are less sticky, less believed"
Please ask Jay: What former beliefs do you mean?
Conditioning and familiar thoughts still arise. And are sometimes still believed. (until they're not). Thoughts such as "I need to make sure I am prepared and ready to take action against the dangerous world." and "Life is hard and risky now, but will be easy and safe when I retire." The difference now is that these thoughts / beliefs are less likely to feel like me, and more likely to be seen as just thoughts arising.

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Bluejay
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby Bluejay » Mon Jan 22, 2024 8:26 am

Thank you, Jay.

Waiting to see if anyone else has questions :)

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Bluejay
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby Bluejay » Mon Jan 22, 2024 3:01 pm

One guide asks:
Maybe i am splitting hairs, but he didn’t actually answer the first question in the way it was presented. “What is there to be understood?”

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WhoIsAsking
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby WhoIsAsking » Mon Jan 22, 2024 5:43 pm

Maybe i am splitting hairs, but he didn’t actually answer the first question in the way it was presented. “What is there to be understood?”
Fair enough. What is to be understood most clearly is that there is no separate self, no separation at all. In direct experience, there is only 'this' (sensations, perceptions, thoughts, etc.) all arising. This arising, this being... that's what's real. Not any story that appears in thought

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Bluejay
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby Bluejay » Tue Jan 23, 2024 8:05 am

Okay, no more questions.

You will be contacted by an admin with info for the LU FB group.

It has been a pleasure guiding you!

If you ever have any questions, you can reach out to me anytime. If you go to my profile here on the forum you can see my website, email, and even PM through the forum.

You can also, of course, ask questions in the FB group.

Any last questions before we wrap?

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WhoIsAsking
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby WhoIsAsking » Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:26 pm

No further questions - thanks again, and have a great day!


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Bluejay
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Re: Thoughts, but no one thinking these thoughts

Postby Bluejay » Tue Jan 23, 2024 9:32 pm

All right. Wish you all the best :)


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