Looking for a Guide

[DebbieGinnie]

Were you able to find and feel "insert name" in a direct way like the other parts of your body?

No

Where is it?

No self can be found.
(Ahh there’s a holding/guarding/irritated sense on saying that phrase)

What did you find? Something? Anything? Nothing?

I found no self.
I also found irritation and frustration. Those labels are thought stuff. If I drop into the body, it’s chest pressure that’s noticeable.

What sensations did you feel in your body that identified "insert name” (If any). Tell me what you experienced and found, by way of direct experience.

No sensations in the body identify “me” or “Deb.”
Yet there is something in me that is resisting relaxing into this understanding.
To speak like I normally would: I feel frustrated.
The thought is “I’m never going to get this!”

[Elad]

Good. Now, you will never get this like I will never get this, because there is no self to get this. However, seeing is happening. It shows in your answers. Meaning, what is getting in the way is expectations about how seeing is supposed to feel.

Therefore, as you right now attend to direct experience and see as you do, that the sensations are not self and the thoughts are not self and no self is found, what is the dissapointment? How were you expecting it to feel differently?

[DebbieGinnie]

Ok. I hear you, Elad. I guess I expected to “believe” it more. I see it within the constructs of these simple questions. The fiction of a “self” is seen but a commensurate lightness of being is not experienced. There is still grumpiness here!

[Elad]

Ok. I hear you, Elad. I guess I expected to “believe” it more. I see it within the constructs of these simple questions. The fiction of a “self” is seen but a commensurate lightness of being is not experienced. There is still grumpiness here!

No, you are not seeing within the constraints. Thats a trap thought. You are seeing when you properly look. Most.of the time you just don't. How often you want to look is up to you (more precisely op to life manifesting as you without any separate self to choose or control).

All this was in the documents you were invited to read before starting. Maybe read them again.

Spend some time with the dissapointment, this won't necessarily make your personality and psychological dispositions any easier, it might in fact just.make them more obvious, which could evoke more resistance and thus worse patterns of negativity.

Spend some time with this, then tell me what you notice.

[Elad]

Also, do this exercise:

Nature Exercise

Go out into nature and spend some time watching the movement of the whole. See how clouds move, trees swing, leaves wiggle, grass moves, insects, birds - all move all the time.

Then move focus to sensations and see how they too are in constant motion, thoughts come and go, sounds, colours, sensations come and go.

Notice that everything is part of one movement.

Then close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

Is there a witness that is watching life happening from a distance? Is witnessing part of the one movement too?

Is there anything which is not just happening?

Go out, come back and tell me what you found.

[DebbieGinnie]

Spend some time with the dissapointment, this won't necessarily make your personality and psychological dispositions any easier, it might in fact just make them more obvious, which could evoke more resistance and thus worse patterns of negativity.

Spend some time with this, then tell me what you notice.

I made the mistake of thinking I would really “wake up,” that’s all. I re-read the opening cautionary material, which clearly states that seeing through the self is a first step only. Angst resolved.

close your eyes and see if there is a line between you and out there, between you and life itself. If yes, where is the boundary?

No boundary between me and life

Is there an inside and an outside of Life?

No. Within my day-to-day, there appears to be inside and outside but it's all just Life.

Is there something which is not included in the movement of the whole?

No, everything is included. All the aforementioned predispositions and negativity, etc are all part of the kaleidoscope of life.

Thanks again for your generosity of time, Elad. It's amazing. I wish you well.

[Elad]

Great Deb, seeing is happening. Something to clarify here: "I made the mistake of thinking I would really “wake up,” that’s all."

- "you" will never wake up. "Waking up" is there in the moments of seeing reality itself. "Sleep" is there in identification with certain beliefs (including about how awakening is) being taken to be reality itself. All words and descriptions are only pointers, at best helpful. How do you react to what is written here? And is it clear, or if not, what is not clear?

Please also do this exercise:




Deeper Body Investigation

Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times.

Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror? Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?
(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.

Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’? Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image/images that is/are labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

[DebbieGinnie]

"you" will never wake up.

Understood. And yet, some are apparently more realized. It seems more convenient to use conventional subject-object language instead of the more awkward descriptors about beings and deep realization.

"Waking up" is there in the moments of seeing reality itself. "Sleep" is there in identification with certain beliefs (including about how awakening is) being taken to be reality itself. All words and descriptions are only pointers, at best helpful. How do you react to what is written here? And is it clear, or if not, what is not clear?

Point taken. It is also clear here that no major shift is experienced, that fetters or distortions and fixations continue to cloud clarity. Avoiding common language conventions is cumbersome!

[Elad]

"you" will never wake up.

Understood. And yet, some are apparently more realized. It seems more convenient to use conventional subject-object language instead of the more awkward descriptors about beings and deep realization.

"Waking up" is there in the moments of seeing reality itself. "Sleep" is there in identification with certain beliefs (including about how awakening is) being taken to be reality itself. All words and descriptions are only pointers, at best helpful. How do you react to what is written here? And is it clear, or if not, what is not clear?

Point taken. It is also clear here that no major shift is experienced, that fetters or distortions and fixations continue to cloud clarity. Avoiding common language conventions is cumbersome!

Of course you can use common language, I just point that way sometimes. It's not to "correct" you.

Now here is the challenge: in order to evaluate that no deep shift has happened you are relating through conventional thought. All I am pointing you to, is to get real interested in what you can really see and experience now, as opposed to these stories you so deeply believe in, as in this last message. Do you see the challenge?

As long as your attention goes to your ideas about fetters and how you think a deep shift will be this will prevent your seeing to be fully taken in.

[DebbieGinnie]

All I am pointing you to, is to get real interested in what you can really see and experience now, as opposed to these stories you so deeply believe in, as in this last message. Do you see the challenge?

I see the challenge. It feels daunting although “get real interested in what you can really see and experience now,” is straightforward.

As long as your attention goes to your ideas about fetters and how you think a deep shift will be this will prevent your seeing to be fully taken in.

Ok. I do see what you are trying to tell me while admittedly also feeling defensive and frustrated. All of this back and forth is nothing but ideas, after all.

[Elad]

"I see the challenge. It feels daunting although “get real interested in what you can really see and experience now,” is straightforward."

It is normal for this to feel daunting until the patterns that obscure seeing are properly seen through.

"I do see what you are trying to tell me while admittedly also feeling defensive and frustrated."

It's an important step on the way to optimal copperation and awakening to see and aknowledge your own defensiveness, which an unskillful reaction to frustration and other feelings/sensations.


"All of this back and forth is nothing but ideas, after all"

In this context you are using a pointer that is liberating when properly seen (ideas are nothing more than ideas), as a justification for defensiveness. In the same stroke you devalue our communication and this process, which could prove life changing for you, if you embrace it with the right attitude.

Do you want to lovingly embrace your frustration and whatever other feelings you have, and at the same time as best you can let go of defensiveness and destructive use of pointers? This will demand some courage and humbleness for you to do. The fruits of doing it can be very enriching for your life.

Please look deeply into what I wrote you here, and see if you can take in and make good use of the care and clarity in them.

[DebbieGinnie]

Do you want to lovingly embrace your frustration and whatever other feelings you have, and at the same time as best you can let go of defensiveness and destructive use of pointers? This will demand some courage and humbleness for you to do. The fruits of doing it can be very enriching for your life.

There is so much emotionality arising here. I don't know what I want. I don't feel ready to lovingly embrace much right now, far less my frustration. I will take some time with all of this. There are errands and Thanksgiving preparations that need to happen, but I will work with these feelings over the next couple of days.

[Elad]

Do you want to lovingly embrace your frustration and whatever other feelings you have, and at the same time as best you can let go of defensiveness and destructive use of pointers? This will demand some courage and humbleness for you to do. The fruits of doing it can be very enriching for your life.

There is so much emotionality arising here. I don't know what I want. I don't feel ready to lovingly embrace much right now, far less my frustration. I will take some time with all of this. There are errands and Thanksgiving preparations that need to happen, but I will work with these feelings over the next couple of days.

Appreciating the honesty in this and the intention for the next couple of days.

[DebbieGinnie]

I re-read the last few posts. Just a couple of observations before I get ready for a family holiday gathering:

1. I see that I somehow unnecessarily took your teaching personally. I seemed to feel attacked and told I was wrong. All too-familiar emotional reactivity ensued. It's grim and my perception of EVERYTHING is negative when this happens.

2. I don't think I have a clue what love is. (I purposely did not have children to prevent passing suffering onto another generation.) If love is less a feeling and more like unconditional acceptance, then perhaps that kind of “loving embrace” might be possible if I am able to get quiet when I feel overcome by an emotional storm. Historically there seems to be little time between the strong feelings and reactions, so it's a tall order.

If I really “saw through the self” there would be nothing to feel attacked and nothing to defend, and therefore no reactivity? Or all this karmic sh*t must be felt anyway?

I still have a deep body exercise to do. I will do it tonight.

[Elad]

Hi Deb

"1. I see that I somehow unnecessarily took your teaching personally. I seemed to feel attacked and told I was wrong. All too-familiar emotional reactivity ensued. It's grim and my perception of EVERYTHING is negative when this happens."

Appreciation for the insight and sincerity here.

"2. I don't think I have a clue what love is. (I purposely did not have children to prevent passing suffering onto another generation.) If love is less a feeling and more like unconditional acceptance, then perhaps that kind of “loving embrace” might be possible if I am able to get quiet when I feel overcome by an emotional storm. Historically there seems to be little time between the strong feelings and reactions, so it's a tall order."

We can use the word unconditional acceptance here instead for now. I imagine that as the seeing deepens you might find a new relationship to the word love. But for now we should only talk more about it if you are curious about it!

"If I really “saw through the self” there would be nothing to feel attacked and nothing to defend, and therefore no reactivity? Or all this karmic sh*t must be felt anyway?"


Many of us still need to work through reactivity, patterns of defenses and feelings, trauma etc after seeing. Feelings and sides of us/life/humanity we didn't learn to meet with kindness and equanimity, now we learn, sometimes step by step, sometimes in leaps. In either case it's a natural process of surrender. Once you see that whatever is happening psychologically and behaviorally is not you and also doesn't exist independent of thought, it can often naturally evoke more ease and compassion.

Here is a video for you (break in the break 🙂) with fellow LU guide Paul. It speaks to some of this:

https://youtu.be/KHvk_RN6Cs8?si=ywWXc6SdYVE_gbue

Happy Thanksgiving 🙏