What am I?

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Mon Nov 06, 2023 2:54 am

They may or may not. Mostly it's the identification with them that makes you care if they are there or not.
Yes,definitely identified with the I. It seems nearly all thoughts have an 'I' attached, in some way. It would be impossible to speak without saying 'I', even if the 'I' is gone!
Then there may be some self-evaluation going on to see how you're doing and maybe seeing if you're closer to getting where you want and so on. All that is an illusion.
I understand that the assessment is a thought, and thoughts are illusion. However, somehow, that just doesn't hit me in any way that pushes me over any edge of understanding. It's not being incorporated into the awareness that is here. So, there is the desire for improvement. Without it, though, would I ever have started all of this? What drives this desire? Whatever desires to see progression is the same yearning that put me on this path in the first place, or is it? It can't be the ego, it would be plotting its own demise.
This feeling of futility, can you go in and feel it fully without the labels and thoughts about it?
I sat with the futility, and it grew into he feeling of fear - fear that this cannot be done. 'I' cannot 'do' it. Fear of failure.

Today I didn't get so lost in thought when fleshing everything out.The 'I' would go in so many wild directions, distract, distract, distract! And it was working. While going about my day to help separate me from the 'I', I would say/think, 'body walking', body looking, eyes reading, etc. It seems to take me into a place where I am looking from a higher perspective. Perhaps, all-that-is took a peek.

Thank you, Henri. I am trying!

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Mon Nov 06, 2023 8:44 am

I sat with the futility, and it grew into he feeling of fear - fear that this cannot be done. 'I' cannot 'do' it. Fear of failure.
That's great. Keep going deeper into it and let go of any labels as they come up. Simply feel the sensations. If you get distracted, return to the sensations. Let the sensations expand in the body, stay as long as they want, and do what they want. They simply want to be felt.
Yes,definitely identified with the I. It seems nearly all thoughts have an 'I' attached, in some way. It would be impossible to speak without saying 'I', even if the 'I' is gone!
Language isn't the sticking point, only the belief that there is an I.

There is always only one thought at a time, so look at any thought with an I, and inquire: To whom is this thought occurring?

When the answer inevitably comes: 'To me' then inquire: Who am I?

Are you a thought? A sensation? A sound? A concept?

There is no answer in thought, so stay curious and keep looking, even if you find nothing, because the lack of an answer is the answer.
I understand that the assessment is a thought, and thoughts are illusion. However, somehow, that just doesn't hit me in any way that pushes me over any edge of understanding. It's not being incorporated into the awareness that is here. So, there is the desire for improvement. Without it, though, would I ever have started all of this? What drives this desire? Whatever desires to see progression is the same yearning that put me on this path in the first place, or is it? It can't be the ego, it would be plotting its own demise.
Good that you're honest. Understanding alone is not enough. This has to sink in to the body, be experiential.

Here we focus on if there is a self that chooses anything. Here's a pointer on this:

The aim of this pointer is to discover whether the function of choice can really be found or confirmed in actual experience. The idea of making ‘choices‘ is a very clear example of a function that we wrongly identify as the basis of our identity.

Here's what’s needed - a chair, a table and two different drinks. Any two drinks you like are okay for this: coffee, tea, milk, water, juices, smoothies, beer, wine, etc.

Preparation - Place the two drinks side by side on the table in front of you, sit comfortably on the chair and mentally label them as drink A and drink B.

Experiment - Finding the function of choice

Sit for a few moments, take a few relaxed breaths and let the dust settle. When you feel ready:

1. Look at drink A and at drink B. Think about their respective qualities, the things you like about them, compare and weigh the pros and cons of each. See if a preference is manifesting for one or the other.

2. Count to 5.

3. Choose one of the drinks. Pick it up and take a sip.

Questions:

Remember that we’re looking for some kind of function, a something, an ‘I’ which is doing the ‘choosing’.

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?

In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?

Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?


Enjoy! :)

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Tue Nov 07, 2023 1:11 pm

In step 1 when thinking about their respective qualities, did you ‘choose’ the qualities? Or did they kind of appear by themselves? If some preferences manifested, did you ‘choose’ these preferences? Or did they just pop up by themselves?

Their qualities just popped up by themselves. They popped up from past experience, what is known about them already.
In step 2 when you counted to 5, if the preferences took the back seat while the numbers took the front seat, did you ‘choose’ this sequence of event? Did you ‘choose’ to shut down the preferences to give way to the counting?

Hmmmm. I finished step 1, so went to step 2 and chose to count to 5. That part was directed, by the brain, but I did not choose to stop looking for preferences, it just happened! I can't think two thoughts at once. Wow, that made my head buzz!
Did you directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Have you seen this function in action?
I am not sure if you're talking about the counting or deciding on what drink, I'm going with the counting. I did not experience any type of process or anything to shut down preferences and start counting. I didn't see anything in action, there wasn't anything at all happening. Each thought seems to stand alone in the emptiness.
In step 3 where you made a choice, did you actually witness or directly experience a mental function or faculty doing the ‘choosing’? Did anything arise that announced, ‘I am the chooser’? If so, what does this function look like?
Lol, nothing came forward and said I am the chooser. I tried to feel into which one would feel better to my body, which drink my body wanted. I actually just told myself a story that one would be better for my body than the other, but it doesn't feel like the body did anything, The mind told the story of which it thought better, based on attributes of Lori (healthy choice) so the mind came up with a conclusion from that. Funny thing is, in the next step, that's not the one I chose!!! Who or what is running this show? It's chaos!
Sometimes we describe this sense of choosing as a ‘feeling’: It feels like ‘I’ did the 'choosing’. But the question is, can a feeling ‘choose’? Is it in the nature of a feeling to 'choose’?
It seems that the whole time I am looking for a feeling, I am actually just making up a ridiculous story, out of thin air! Sometimes i get an actual premonition, a real push to make a certain choice, but I'm gonna say 99% of the time,'I' am making it up. One. Thought. At. A. Time.
Thank you for this experiment! The fact that I made what I thought a considered choice, when my arm reached out for a drink, it didn't take the chosen one is something I need to digest.
Language isn't the sticking point, only the belief that there is an I.
I guess what I am trying to understand is, how can I, when trying to convey what 'I" have done, not include the 'I'. Language continuously reinforces the self, which I am trying to observe, and see all the beliefs attached to self reference, but it is overwhelming. Lori has a lot of things she thinks she is! Definitely the issue is the ownership of a separate self. So, it's putting the cart before the horse?
Are you a thought? A sensation? A sound? A concept?
This I can do! Trying to find the belief behind it is too much. Too many tiny, hidden beliefs.
Lots to digest from the drink experiment also. Thank you!

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Tue Nov 07, 2023 1:26 pm

Glad to hear the drinks exercise gave you stuff to digest. Take your time :)
Who or what is running this show? It's chaos!
Only chaos for the mind. In reality, it's exactly as it should be, or exactly as it is...
Sometimes i get an actual premonition, a real push to make a certain choice
These are good to examine as well. When you have a premonition, you could write down what it is, then see how often it is right. It is, after all, a thought you didn't predict or choose, right?
I guess what I am trying to understand is, how can I, when trying to convey what 'I" have done, not include the 'I'. Language continuously reinforces the self, which I am trying to observe, and see all the beliefs attached to self reference, but it is overwhelming. Lori has a lot of things she thinks she is! Definitely the issue is the ownership of a separate self. So, it's putting the cart before the horse?
Language doesn't need to reinforce the self. When the self is seen to never have existed, it doesn't matter what you call it. It's like if I keep saying Santa, will you eventually think there is a real Santa?

Why is the letter 'I' so special? Change it to 'O'. O is doing all this stuff. X is getting overwhelmed. Santa is thinking my thoughts.
I am trying to observe, and see all the beliefs attached to self reference, but it is overwhelming. Lori has a lot of things she thinks she is! Definitely the issue is the ownership of a separate self. So, it's putting the cart before the horse?
There is only one thought, one sense at a time, so what is creating this overwhelm? It's a thought that includes everything, which creates the illusion that there's a lot.

And then...

Who is doing this observing?

Find this 'person' that is doing all this work, and that is overwhelmed. Don't believe any thought for the answer. Look, feel, listen. Find the source.

If the source feels like aliveness, awareness, presence, etc, keep going: What is the source of this aliveness?

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:21 pm

Only chaos for the mind. In reality, it's exactly as it should be, or exactly as it is...
Yes, I meant the chaos in my mind. How this person walks through life. How could I not see before that these thoughts arise out of nothing, and have no basis in reality? They are just grasping, constantly, for a feeling of acceptance, solidity, attention. 'I' have always tried to be a 'good' person, but going through thought isn't going to get me there, it can't when the thoughts have no foundation, no place to attach to that is real. They come from nothing, and disappear into nothing. It helps to put this in words.
These are good to examine as well. When you have a premonition, you could write down what it is, then see how often it is right. It is, after all, a thought you didn't predict or choose, right?
Actually, sometimes I see little scenes of the future. Or I have a 'knowing'. I don't know if I dream them or where they come from. I know what people are going to say, and what is going to happen. It is usually very mundane. They seem different from thought. This has happened most of my life. Starting as a teen. Sometimes I get a feeling in my head while it's happening. No, I can't predict when or where it is going to come. But I would say it is 99% accurate. A flashier premonition, I once saw some academy award winners, in early December, when the awards aren't until the following February. I am not interested in the academy awards, but I saw who won best acress, what dress she had on, what she said. And it was accurate, except her dress had different colors. I told my family about it, and they said, impossible, it doesn't happen until February. Am i just tapping into the oneness?
It's like if I keep saying Santa, will you eventually think there is a real Santa?
There's no Santa??!???!
haha I understand. If I don't have a self, using the word isn't going to change my belief.
There is only one thought, one sense at a time, so what is creating this overwhelm? It's a thought that includes everything, which creates the illusion that there's a lot.
I have a belief that I have to go through every single belief Lori has in order to get past her. Every person i know I have beliefs about myself specific to them. I will meditate on this. If you have anything to say about beliefs falling away, I"d love to hear it.

When I meditate on awareness, my sense of sight begins to change, and/or I feel physical changes. It doesn't seem like talking bout it is something that belongs here?

Thank you Henri! I appreciate your time! Going to meditation and connect to awareness....

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Wed Nov 08, 2023 1:31 pm

No, I can't predict when or where it is going to come. But I would say it is 99% accurate. A flashier premonition, I once saw some academy award winners, in early December, when the awards aren't until the following February. I am not interested in the academy awards, but I saw who won best acress, what dress she had on, what she said. And it was accurate, except her dress had different colors. I told my family about it, and they said, impossible, it doesn't happen until February. Am i just tapping into the oneness?
Don't think there's an answer to this one :)

Doesn't seem like selfing so it's not a problem.
When I meditate on awareness, my sense of sight begins to change, and/or I feel physical changes. It doesn't seem like talking bout it is something that belongs here?
You can explore. Do you feel actual physical changes, or are there just sensations?
I have a belief that I have to go through every single belief Lori has in order to get past her. Every person i know I have beliefs about myself specific to them. I will meditate on this. If you have anything to say about beliefs falling away, I"d love to hear it.
Notice the thought 'I have to go through every single belief' and then notice the feeling in the body that that thought is trying to distract from. Can you feel it? What is it?

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:02 pm

You can explore. Do you feel actual physical changes, or are there just sensations?
It's when I am feeling awareness with eyes open. Sometimes it's a light show, things are glowing, sometimes things turn white, sometimes it is almost as though I can see through everything. I am getting used to it. I am trying not to make it a 'thing', but it also feels like l need to tell someone sometimes. Perhaps that is ego? Listen to what happened to ME! Ohh, I see that now. Is there a way to share without that? I need to look at the need to share that info.
Can you feel it? What is it?
The thought of having to deal with all the belief attached to Lori was consuming me. It made me sad, scared. I had a good, sweet meditation on it this morning. It seemed to just go away after realizing the thought of the beliefs as well as the beliefs themselves aren't real, just thought, just distractions. Thoughts aren't threatening, they are made up! To help dissolve these ridiculous beliefs, I floated "Lori doesn't exist" out in my meditation and it felt go good. Not frightening for the first time! I looked for a sense of past, and it wasn't very strong. I can't say gone, as I was in a meditative state and that I know isn't the same as living my life. But it's a baby step perhaps.
My mind feels clear and expansive after this meditation. We'll see what life brings today.
Thanks so much Henri.

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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Fri Nov 10, 2023 2:17 pm

Perhaps that is ego? Listen to what happened to ME! Ohh, I see that now. Is there a way to share without that? I need to look at the need to share that info.
Of course, there is a way to share without that, but you may find that there's not such a need to share when the emotional charge isn't there.

So notice the need to share, and instead of moving to share, can you feel the feeling that is being avoided when you sit still?
Thoughts aren't threatening, they are made up! To help dissolve these ridiculous beliefs, I floated "Lori doesn't exist" out in my meditation and it felt go good. Not frightening for the first time! I looked for a sense of past, and it wasn't very strong. I can't say gone, as I was in a meditative state and that I know isn't the same as living my life. But it's a baby step perhaps.
My mind feels clear and expansive after this meditation. We'll see what life brings today.
Thanks so much Henri.
Okay, great :)

Now that you've had some time to assimilate the drinks exercise, here's another one on decisions:

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

- How is the movement controlled?

- Does a thought control it?

- Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

- How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

- Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Enjoy! :)

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Fri Nov 10, 2023 5:24 pm

Before I start the new experiment. Which I appreciate so much, I forgot to mention the last one. My take-away is, no one is choosing. Lori hasn’t made a real choice her whole life. She’s not even real. There is something else turning the earth, allowing things to happen. I feel it, right here. But, you know there has got to be a but coming, somehow this truth that no one is actually choosing doesn’t seem to rock my world. I understand it, mentally, that the disallowing of what is, the pushing against it, causes the chaos, but I don’t KNOW it, yet, cuz Lori is still lurking.
Okay, I just wanted to make sure I stay on track and share all of my unreal though processes, lol.

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Bluejay
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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Sat Nov 11, 2023 8:13 pm

But, you know there has got to be a but coming, somehow this truth that no one is actually choosing doesn’t seem to rock my world. I understand it, mentally, that the disallowing of what is, the pushing against it, causes the chaos, but I don’t KNOW it, yet, cuz Lori is still lurking.
Yes, and this Lori is a contraction somewhere in the body that is being labeled 'Lori' :)

Looking forward to what you discover with the palm pointer!

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:13 pm

- How is the movement controlled?
I am not thinking: I will flip my hand now, and it flips. It just flips, without thinking. Even if I look away it will still flip. Is it awareness that is flipping it? If it's not awareness, I can sure feel something enter the space. I've got a tingle of excitement with this realization!
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Gosh, no! There isn't anything controlling it. My thoughts can barge in and make it stop, but there isn't a thought: I am going to stop now, and then something stops it.
- Who or what​ ​chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?
it was not thought; I didn't look down and think about it, the right hand was just chosen.... awareness? life itself? What should we call this? I am not really enjoying 'awareness' as it has some stuff attached to it for me, as you so astutely said in the very beginning. I feel like it takes a sledge hammer to get through to me. But I am paying attention now! What a struggle to get thru all the STUFF.
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?
No. It is just happening. It is something other than the me that thinks it's doing this.There is no thought! It's actually not doing anything, as my dad would say, self is a day late, and a dollar short! It's already happened by the time the slowness of thought gets ahold of anything. Is that why it constantly refers to the past and future??

This next part should have come first, but I went right to the exercise (I may have messed up the highlighting?)

So notice the need to share, and instead of moving to share, can you feel the feeling that is being avoided when you sit still?
YES! I don't want to acknowledge it, I want to get away from it. If I just move on, move away and repeat it, it isn't real. It is immediately turned into a story, the story of LORI. OMG. THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!!!!

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Sat Nov 11, 2023 11:20 pm

Yes, and this Lori is a contraction somewhere in the body that is being labeled 'Lori'
I don't quite understand this. What do you mean by a contraction?
I am still reeling from the above revelation. It brings tears to my eyes and joy to my heart.
Can't wait to see what is next!!
Thank you Henri!!!

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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Sun Nov 12, 2023 8:54 am

I don't quite understand this. What do you mean by a contraction?
I am still reeling from the above revelation. It brings tears to my eyes and joy to my heart.
Glad to hear it!

Another way of saying contraction would be resistance or tight sensation. For example, if you say 'I, Lori is here' notice where in the body there is sensation to confirm that, yes, Lori is here.
Even if I look away it will still flip. Is it awareness that is flipping it? If it's not awareness, I can sure feel something enter the space. I've got a tingle of excitement with this realization!
We can put a label on it, but just because we label it, do we know what it is?
YES! I don't want to acknowledge it, I want to get away from it. If I just move on, move away and repeat it, it isn't real. It is immediately turned into a story, the story of LORI. OMG. THAT MAKES SO MUCH SENSE!!!!
And do you notice what the feeling is that wants to be distracted from when you move to share? What is it you don't want to feel?

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LoriAnn
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Re: What am I?

Postby LoriAnn » Sun Nov 12, 2023 1:22 pm

if you say 'I, Lori is here' notice where in the body there is sensation to confirm that, yes, Lori is here.
Lori is definitely in my head. I realize now that this is why I get a lot of sensation in my head when doing this work. There is a physical reaction. It feels like there is a physical place she is residing. Interesting....
We can put a label on it, but just because we label it, do we know what it is?
The mind wants a label! To leave it un-labeled is so bothersome to it. It would seem best, therefore, to not label it at all. It can be so subtle and sometimes so in-your-face, so palpable. I don't know what it is at these heightened awareness times, or the subtle times. My state of consciousness, where my awareness is, how unconscious I am, makes the difference in how it's experienced. I guess that's stating the obvious.
And do you notice what the feeling is that wants to be distracted from when you move to share? What is it you don't want to feel?
Whatever knowing that makes it across my barriers, it resonates with some part of me so strongly that i am afraid of it, afraid of losing Lori.
When I 'fell off a cliff' in meditation last spring the feeling of no self, no mind, no body, no world was too much. For a few days I was completely lost. I understand more now, but' I' don't want to go back to so much nothing-ness all at once. That is of course the 'I' talking!

Should I try and find that state of nothing again? It freaks me out, but I know there isn't any way around fear. I am afraid I will have no frame of reference again. "I' want to do this in stages, but obviously I am not in charge here, which is also the problem, wanting to be in charge. Wow, this one question unpacked the whole enchilada! Facing this, feels like death.

Any suggestions? Or just dive right into the coffin? Lol This sounds glib, but I am not glib, just trying to ease my own internal upset with humor.
Thank you Henri. I've been dancing around this the whole time.

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Re: What am I?

Postby Bluejay » Sun Nov 12, 2023 1:38 pm

Lori is definitely in my head. I realize now that this is why I get a lot of sensation in my head when doing this work. There is a physical reaction. It feels like there is a physical place she is residing. Interesting....
Whenever you notice this, go right to the sensation in the head, and try to find Lori. Don't go to thoughts for the answer, but look and feel.
The mind wants a label! To leave it un-labeled is so bothersome to it. It would seem best, therefore, to not label it at all. It can be so subtle and sometimes so in-your-face, so palpable. I don't know what it is at these heightened awareness times, or the subtle times. My state of consciousness, where my awareness is, how unconscious I am, makes the difference in how it's experienced. I guess that's stating the obvious.
Of course, the mind wants its imaginary control.

My approach to this would be to not label and go directly to the discomfort in the body and feel that, over and over again, until there discomfort is gone.

This may take hours, days, or even weeks. That's why it's a practice, I guess :)
Whatever knowing that makes it across my barriers, it resonates with some part of me so strongly that i am afraid of it, afraid of losing Lori.
When I 'fell off a cliff' in meditation last spring the feeling of no self, no mind, no body, no world was too much. For a few days I was completely lost. I understand more now, but' I' don't want to go back to so much nothing-ness all at once. That is of course the 'I' talking!
Life has a way of doing this in the perfect way for each person, so perhaps this is more about trusting life instead of the 'I' for you?

Also, usually these experiences of pure nothingness are temporary, just glimpses, often to bring up fear so it can be processed.

We are inquiring into the separate self here, which is not the complete loss of self (that comes later, often), but just seeing that there is no Lori doing, thinking, deciding, feeling, and making things happen.
Should I try and find that state of nothing again? It freaks me out, but I know there isn't any way around fear. I am afraid I will have no frame of reference again. "I' want to do this in stages, but obviously I am not in charge here, which is also the problem, wanting to be in charge. Wow, this one question unpacked the whole enchilada! Facing this, feels like death.

Any suggestions? Or just dive right into the coffin? Lol This sounds glib, but I am not glib, just trying to ease my own internal upset with humor.
Thank you Henri. I've been dancing around this the whole time.
It depends on what resonates with you. I would dive right into the deepest discomfort, but that's me, and I know that approach doesn't work for most.

When you think about the state of nothing now, notice that it's a thought/image. It's not the real thing, but you can use that to bring up the fear, and then gradually go into the fear. Let go of any labels, and get to know it. There are just sensations dancing, wanting to be felt, seen, heard.

***

This brings up the below pointer, which is the start of learning to trust that life/body is living everything, and thoughts/mind are not needed at all, so even if thoughts lose their grip, life takes care of things.

Body Exercise - Inner GPS

Your body naturally navigates life, and gives you data on what it resonates with and what it doesn’t.

For example, have you ever had a ‘gut feeling’ that you shouldn’t do something, and you did it anyway?

Or maybe you felt like doing something that made no logical sense, but it led to exactly what you needed at that time in your life?

It may not make sense logically, but the body knows more than we are aware of.

These yes/no signals often come as expansion/contraction, light/heavy, open/closed, but they may be different for you.

They can happen spontaneously or need time to become clear (a sign that you need time is that you think you need to be faster).

What I’d like you to do for next day is this:

1. Tell your mind that you will conduct an experiment for 24 hours, and that things will return to normal after that if appropriate (this is to get some space and focus on the body)

2. As often as you can, pay attention to what your body feels drawn to do. If it isn’t convenient to do this for all decisions, then do it for small ones, or whenever you can.

(If you have a hard time connecting to your body, just do your best. Look at this as an experiment and play with it.)

3. Pay attention to how your inner GPS communicates with you. Where is it in your body? What does it feel like? Is it instant or does it require time? (focus on direct experience)

4. Also notice how thoughts about self affect the body. What do you find?

If you experience thoughts such as:

- “This doesn’t work”
- “Why are you doing this?”
- “This is silly”
- “This is unsafe”

Tell your mind that you’re just doing it for 24 hours to see what it’s like.

What happened? Report back what you discover.

Let me know if you have any questions :)


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