Thanks for existing

[Alless]

Hello Jerry

The separate self is only found in thought.

Yes, that's the truth !

It’s saying it controls experience, and it summons memories of it controlling experience, which was one of the main disruptions until I just realized those memories are also thoughts. A lot of the feelings of it controlling experience came from those two things.

Very good. Realizing memories are only thought is crucial ! Only one other thing to point out..

it summons memories of it controlling experience.

Did it control experience or did it THINK it controlled experience.
It may seem pedantic but it's not. It so subtly leaves a trail of beliefs that are so easy to miss

Will let you know if that changes.

Please do !

Now we will take this matter further of thought being the reporter and not the controller

Sports Exercise

Please note that you will have to check the link when using this exercise, to make sure it is still viable, as sometimes they are removed from Youtube.

The following link is a short clip of a football game. You may not be be familiar with this particular sport so If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

The important thing here is to do your best in watching how thoughts behave.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooZLYNQOqk4

(Here is an alternative
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPn3x7c9WFA)


1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a leather thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Are there any differences between 1 and 2 which are immediately obvious?


Notice how the commentator / the reporter (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they know exactly what is being experienced out on the field. It even feels that they could influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself. Also notice how the commentator peppers the commentary with personal interpretations.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.


Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?


Does what the commentator says affect the game in any way?


Does the commentator accurately describe EVERYTHING that is actually happening?


Is the commentary totally in synch with what is actually happening as it happens or is it actually lagging? (its ABOUT something in the PAST, something not happening right NOW )


What effect does the commentary have – is it helpful in any way, is it relaxing, is it difficult to keep up with, is it a distraction from what is actually happening?


And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?


Does anything in particular about the internal narrator stand out when doing this exercise?

Wanted to give a heads up. Will be occupied most of the day tomorrow, though there may be a window to respond.

Thanks Jerry. Again, give yourself the tome you need


Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

Notice the differences. Are there any differences between 1 and 2 which are immediately obvious?

With sound there was a lot more labeling. Labels would overlay sights that only existed because of the sound.

Is the commentary on the football game a necessity for the play to happen?

No, not at all

Does what the commentator says affect the game in any way?

Also no

Does the commentator accurately describe EVERYTHING that is actually happening?

Not even close

Is the commentary totally in synch with what is actually happening as it happens or is it actually lagging? (its ABOUT something in the PAST, something not happening right NOW )

Always lagging behind

What effect does the commentary have – is it helpful in any way, is it relaxing, is it difficult to keep up with, is it a distraction from what is actually happening?

It’s helpful for creating labels and a story. Not particularly relaxing, it’s difficult to see what’s going on while hearing the commentary

And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

Not necessarily, it’s all happening and thought is reporting on it.

Does anything in particular about the internal narrator stand out when doing this exercise?

The fact that the internal narrator is lagging behind, the words on this screen come before the thoughts of the words on this screen.

The nature of the internal narrator, and the fact that it isn’t anywhere. There seems to be something with that.

Jerry

[Alless]

Good to hear again Jerry

The nature of the internal narrator, and the fact that it isn’t anywhere. There seems to be something with that.

Tell me what you mean by "There seems to be something with that."?



Attention and Choice

In that sports clip and, in fact, every moment our attention is ever present and typically barely acknowledged or noticed. So let's look at attention. And also choice.

So first of all attention. Have you noticed this aspect of being? What is this that we label attention? Focus and attention might well be considered interchangeable labels for the purpose of our exploration here. (Tell me if you see that otherwise Jerry)

We also find that attention moves from one "thing" to another. What controls this movement? This can also lead to asking “What and where is the choice maker in all of this?"


Attention and Choice

Describe what happens in these situations ........

1. When you wake of a morning and find yourself getting out of bed can you see a self choosing to leave the bed?



Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body? Does the thought “I’ll get up” arise before or after the decision?



2. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple. Can you find when the choice is made and what makes the choice?




3. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?



4. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly when the next thought will arise and what its contents will be?



5. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?



6. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?



7. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?



8. Close your eyes and sit quietly for a few minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or does it move by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?



9. What is this that we call attention? What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention? Is there anything that can be found that is the controller of attention or choosing?



10. There is SEEING and we can also say there is noticing, looking and focussing. Is there a different experience for each of them? How would you describe the difference in experience for you in each of them? Is there a controller that controls which of these will happen when?


Please respond to each question specifically.

Finally, in all of this LOOK for “ME.”
Is there an entity, a thing, a very specific part of you that is in control and you can point to and say “There it is !!!”?



Describe what you SEE and FEEL as you search for the "me".




Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

Feeling very fatigued while writing these answers due to external circumstances. If I truly had choice I would simply choose to be energized. Will get to bed and continue with the rest tomorrow.

Tell me what you mean by "There seems to be something with that."?

There’s a sense of intuition that what was noticed is the surface of something that goes deeper. It’s partially faded since so it’s difficult to elaborate further.

1. When you wake of a morning and find yourself getting out of bed can you see a self choosing to leave the bed?

Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body? Does the thought “I’ll get up” arise before or after the decision?

Writing this at night, I can’t recall.

2. 'On a count of 5, raise either your left or right arm, or not.' Dead simple. Can you find when the choice is made and what makes the choice?

There’s no choice made. Thoughts may say “left” or “right” prior to an arm going up, but the thoughts themself aren’t making any choice nor are they choice.

3. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

I can’t, nor is there a moment when I choose fall asleep.

4. Can you choose the very content of the next thought? Can you choose willingly when the next thought will arise and what its contents will be?

I cannot, the next thought was entirely influenced by this question and not anything controlling thought. Any “choice” to choose the next thought is just a thought of choosing this thought that only appeared because of existing conditions that promoted it such as this question.

5. Can you choose the very quality (tightness, openness, vibration, hardness, contraction etc) of the physical sensation, that will arise next?

Absolutely not, choice is nonexistent when it comes to physical sensations.

6. Can you choose the next emotion, mind state, attitude that will arise? Sit and look at what is happening. Can you find any choice - point where you willingly chose any emotion that appeared in response to a stimulus?

I can’t, and haven’t found any point where a choice is made to feel something. I’m trying to choose to feel happy or sad and nothing is happening.

7. Think of a number between 1 and 20. Try to notice the exact point when the choice is made. Did you know what number would be chosen before it appeared?

The number just appears, there’s no choice prior to the number, the number comes first and then sometimes a thought afterwards of having chose that number.

Jerry

[Alless]

Hi Jerry

Feeling very fatigued while writing these answers due to external circumstances. If I truly had choice I would simply choose to be energized. Will get to bed and continue with the rest tomorrow.

No problem.If things on the external are pressing hard and you want to take a bit of a break please just tell me.

I'll respond to the post as a whole when you get he chance to go through the rest of the questions.

Be good to yourself Jerry. And follow your "intuition", your "inner guide."


Alan

[Jerry907]

1. When you wake of a morning and find yourself getting out of bed can you see a self choosing to leave the bed?

No, there wasn’t self-referential thought when getting out of bed, it was completely automatic.

Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body? Does the thought “I’ll get up” arise before or after the decision?

The command wasn’t there, the body just got up. It got up out of habit. Thought does not command the body. I did not think “I’ll get up” but I did think “I got up” so it arises after the body already got up.

8. Close your eyes and sit quietly for a few minutes. Watch what focus does. Focus on focussing, watch attention itself. Do you move it? Or does it move by itself? Hold focus on breath. See how it moves to thoughts, sensations, feelings, sounds. Is this something you control?

It moves by itself, and it’s not controlled. Even when concentrating it feels like concentration is merely focus staying in one spot for a while.

9. What is this that we call attention? What moves attention? Is thinking in control of attention? Is there anything that can be found that is the controller of attention or choosing?

Attention is experience itself. It moves and forms by itself. Thinking is not in control of attention. Attention has no controller or chooser.

10. There is SEEING and we can also say there is noticing, looking and focussing. Is there a different experience for each of them? How would you describe the difference in experience for you in each of them? Is there a controller that controls which of these will happen when?

Noticing, looking, and focusing seem like different experiences, but on the other hand they’re only labels for experience. Noticing is the moment thought springs up, looking is seeing and thinking, and focusing is seeing without thinking. No controller that controls which happen next.

Is there an entity, a thing, a very specific part of you that is in control and you can point to and say “There it is !!!”?

There’s no such thing, nothing to point to.

Describe what you SEE and FEEL as you search for the "me".

Seeing thoughts, the screen and beyond, and eyelids when they’re closed. Feeling a fast heartbeat, the seat. Feeling confusion, and spaciousness as well.

[Alless]

Very clear seeing here Jerry !

In summary what I hear you reporting is that thought is always trailing whatever happens and thought is never in control of anything.
Have I read right?

Feeling confusion, and spaciousness as well.

Confusion is a label for a story. And there will be two key parts to it.
A story and a sensation.
Right now look for the "me" again. and see if confusion is experienced again.
Can you tell what the story is about?



What is the sensation that is felt?



Whatever the sensation, just be with it while leaving the story to one side as best you can.
If it changes or subsides any just look for the "me" again.
Anything to report?



You looked at body sensations earlier on and we'll come back to sensations with this.

Deeper Body Investigation
Here is an even deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen.
Repeat the exercise several times.
Stand in front of a bigger mirror.
(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.
(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations.
Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?



Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?



(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?




(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?




(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?




(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?




(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?




(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?



Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?



Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?




Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?




Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?




(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?



Alan

[Jerry907]

In summary what I hear you reporting is that thought is always trailing whatever happens and thought is never in control of anything.

Have I read right?

Yes, that’s correct

Confusion is a label for a story. And there will be two key parts to it.
A story and a sensation.
Right now look for the "me" again. and see if confusion is experienced again.
Can you tell what the story is about?

No confusion experienced anymore, instead there’s relief. There’s a story currently but it’s all thought and about itself, it doesn’t make much sense at the moment like a random page on a book.

What is the sensation that is felt?

Thought and feeling

Whatever the sensation, just be with it while leaving the story to one side as best you can.
If it changes or subsides any just look for the "me" again.
Anything to report?

This is getting somewhere, I just need more time to sit with it.

[Jerry907]

The mirror exercise I’ll get to tomorrow

[Alless]

This is getting somewhere, I just need more time to sit with it.

This is the best thing to do Jerry

The mirror exercise I’ll get to tomorrow

Take your time and sit with whatever needs to be sat with

Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

Take your time and sit with whatever needs to be sat with

Thank you, the nature of words makes this difficult to write. Thought looks like thought, no me to be found, no me to be certain of that statement, and no me to care about being certain.

Took a while to see and articulate that, heading to bed now

Jerry

[Alless]

Hello Jerry

the nature of words makes this difficult to write.

I completely understand. I may have mentioned this before and if I have it bears repeating. It is this ..... that as we try and describe this that is, it is as much what is not said..... as it is what is said.... that tells the truth of what we are trying to say.

Just do the best you can.

and no me to care about being certain.

If you are able to tell me a little more about that I would love to hear

Took a while to see and articulate that,

Again just take as much time here as you need.


Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

If you are able to tell me a little more about that I would love to hear

Looking, it’s immediately apparent that “certainty”, “caring” and “me” cannot exist outside of thought. Since that was seen, there’s been less thoughts of those concepts and more space for other sensations.

Started the mirror exercise as well.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?

There is no connection between the felt sensations and image in the mirror. The sensations are felt and the image is seen but the image is not felt and the sensations are not seen.

Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

Thoughts did not even suggest that there was a connection until this was mentioned.

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

For a bit there did seem to be connection, like feeling was localized at the area focused on in the mirror image, but upon closer look it seemed like touch wasn’t localized anywhere in the image nor what was before the image

Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

No connection, there doesn’t seem to be a felt sensation of the hand being here and then there. There’s just the constant sensation of touch and the image of movement.

As always, thank you for your patience,

Jerry

[Alless]

Good to see your post Jerry

Since that was seen, there’s been less thoughts of those concepts and more space for other sensations.

Very interesting ! More space for Direct Experience

The sensations are felt and the image is seen but the image is not felt and the sensations are not seen.

So clear !

Thoughts did not even suggest that there was a connection until this was mentioned.

Oh dear ! Sounds like I'm disturbing the peace that you are Jerry ! Perhaps its time for me to stop ! 😊

There’s just the constant sensation of touch and the image of movement.

Beautiful.

As always, thank you for your patience,

Thank you! It actually doesn't feel so much like patience at this end - more like joy at what you're reporting Jerry. Patience, willingness curiosity, persistence - so many contributing factors that are felt in what's happening in your experience in this.

I'll leave it with you to finish the exercise and look forward to your responses and also hearing of anything else that is happening.


Alan

[Jerry907]

Hi Alan,

5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror. Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

By itself, no. There’s just a flat image of colors on a screen.

6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

This time thoughts and mental images didn’t suggest that there were legs. Even at this mention, looking at the mirror there’s no legs to be seen and any thoughts that arise on the topic are not taking the assumption seriously.

7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts).
Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

No body, just the sensations. Forgot there was a body for a few moments there even though the sensation of touch was fully present.

8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations?

Can confidently say there were several moments with only sensations even as thoughts went off like fireworks at the squeaky floors. It was like walking around for the first time. Had to give it a second go just because of how fun it was.

Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all?

Only in retrospect, no AE of walking in the moment

Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’?

Only thoughts, and brief thoughts at that.

Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’?

Just thoughts, in moments without thought there was no body. Didn’t even know what I’d see until I looked in the mirror.

Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

Taking another lap to see. There were thoughts of walking, but those thoughts went away and what they were labeling remained.

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location

There’s only an image, then labels and concepts that overlay the image and other sensations culminating in the perception of location. Sensations, particularly touch don’t seem to have any location. With sight the lack of location is consistent with what’s seen in a very subtle way that’s been easy to miss

Jerry