Looking for a guide

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Bluejay
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Bluejay » Mon Oct 30, 2023 8:04 am

That was again a fun exercise, and a perfect follow-up of the hand-turning exercise, as it beautifully demonstrated that even seemingly different modes of choice making basically work in the same way: there's no separate choice maker experienceable, and it's just the 'I' thought that's the clown who takes the bow (as, I think, Jean Klein put it so aptly, cause it's really funny once you see it).
That's a good way of putting it :)

All that is experienced is thought, sound, color, taste, smell, sensation, and that is all there is. Anything else is imputed.

Here's a pointer exploring intuition:

Your body naturally navigates life, and gives you data on what it resonates with and what it doesn’t.

For example, have you ever had a ‘gut feeling’ that you shouldn’t do something, and you did it anyway?

Or maybe you felt like doing something that made no logical sense, but it led to exactly what you needed at that time in your life?

It may not make sense logically, but the body knows more than we are aware of.

These yes/no signals often come as expansion/contraction, light/heavy, open/closed, but they may be different for you.

They can happen spontaneously or need time to become clear (a sign that you need time is that you think you need to be faster).

What I’d like you to do for next day is this:

1. Tell your mind that you will conduct an experiment for 24 hours, and that things will return to normal after that if appropriate (this is to get some space and focus on the body)

2. As often as you can, pay attention to what your body feels drawn to do. If it isn’t convenient to do this for all decisions, then do it for small ones, or whenever you can.

3. Pay attention to how your inner GPS communicates with you. Where is it in your body? What does it feel like? Is it instant or does it require time? (focus on direct experience)

4. Also notice how thoughts about self affect the body. What do you find?

What happened? Report back what you discover.

Let me know if you have any questions :)

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trp
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby trp » Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:01 am

What I’d like you to do for next day is this:

1. Tell your mind that you will conduct an experiment for 24 hours, and that things will return to normal after that if appropriate (this is to get some space and focus on the body)

2. As often as you can, pay attention to what your body feels drawn to do. If it isn’t convenient to do this for all decisions, then do it for small ones, or whenever you can.

3. Pay attention to how your inner GPS communicates with you. Where is it in your body? What does it feel like? Is it instant or does it require time? (focus on direct experience)

4. Also notice how thoughts about self affect the body. What do you find?

What happened? Report back what you discover.
Setting the intention on listening to the body really worked, I became more aware of subtle moments of hesitation and doubt in routine activities and choices that previously went unnoticed, and particularly got fascinated by the observation how the smallest interferences of the mind can turn into webs of thought entanglement and bodily contractions once the thought train gets started. So, I can feel now clearer how living without the 'I' thought can result in more flow, clarity, and spontaneity in daily life.

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trp
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby trp » Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:02 am

What I’d like you to do for next day is this:

1. Tell your mind that you will conduct an experiment for 24 hours, and that things will return to normal after that if appropriate (this is to get some space and focus on the body)

2. As often as you can, pay attention to what your body feels drawn to do. If it isn’t convenient to do this for all decisions, then do it for small ones, or whenever you can.

3. Pay attention to how your inner GPS communicates with you. Where is it in your body? What does it feel like? Is it instant or does it require time? (focus on direct experience)

4. Also notice how thoughts about self affect the body. What do you find?

What happened? Report back what you discover.
Setting the intention on listening to the body really worked, I became more aware of subtle moments of hesitation and doubt in routine activities and choices that previously went unnoticed, and particularly got fascinated by the observation how the smallest interferences of the mind can turn into webs of thought entanglement and bodily contractions once the thought train gets started. So, I can feel now clearer how living without the 'I' thought can result in more flow, clarity, and spontaneity in daily life.

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Bluejay
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Bluejay » Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:11 am

Nice!
So, I can feel now clearer how living without the 'I' thought can result in more flow, clarity, and spontaneity in daily life.
And did the 'I' thought ever do anything other than pretend?

Here's a pointer on time:

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if it started at all) far in the past and advances to the future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and moving into the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

Look at a thought about the past or the future, where is 'time' in that?

Is there actual experience of ‘time’ or just thoughts about ‘time’?


Enjoy! :)

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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby trp » Tue Oct 31, 2023 10:26 pm

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time?
Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?

Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?

How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?

Look at a thought about the past or the future, where is 'time' in that?

Is there actual experience of ‘time’ or just thoughts about ‘time’?

Feeling into these inquiry questions, it's pretty clear that time is a mental construct, and that the 'now' is kind of outside time (as is the 'here' outside of space, for that matter). I wouldn't claim though that this is the lived and felt experience most of the time during the day, but there are definitely more and more tastes of it, plus for quite some time now, I've been also noticing changes in time perception and memory access.

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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Bluejay » Wed Nov 01, 2023 8:23 am

I've been also noticing changes in time perception and memory access.
Memory can become strange for a while. It seems that as thoughts are taken less seriously, memory doesn't work as it used to, so there can be more forgetfulness. It simply means you're not thinking so much, so there's more freedom. Just use calendars and timers if needed :)

Speaking of memory...

Almost everybody believes that a memory thought is referring to something that has happened. That a memory thought is a different thought than a non-memory thought.

During this exercise. please don’t go to thought explanations, but just let a memory be there, and look at it.

Look at what is actually going on and not what thoughts say. Focus on direct experience.

What is memory exactly?
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?


Then, look at a thought about the future.

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?


Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference and how is that difference known exactly?

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trp
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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby trp » Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:11 pm

What is memory exactly? 
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future. 

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference and how is that difference known exactly?
This is a pretty clear one: A thought about the future or about the past is not different from any other thought, it comes and goes on its own and is made of nothing substantial, so memories about the past or predictions or fantasies about the future have no inherent reality other than being experienced as thoughts, they just seem stickier at times because identification with a seemingly contained 'I' can happen more easily than it is the case with garden-variety thoughts.

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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby trp » Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:11 pm

What is memory exactly? 
What is the memory ‘made of’?
WHEN does the memory appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘memory’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘memory’ thought refers to something that has happened?

Then, look at a thought about the future. 

What is the future thought ‘made of’?
WHEN does the future thought appear?
What is the exact difference between a ‘general’ thought and a ‘future’ thought?
How is it known EXACTLY that a ‘future’ thought refers to something that will happen?

Then let’s compare a thought about past and a thought about the future.

What is the EXACT difference between the thoughts about past and future?

If there is difference and how is that difference known exactly?
This is a pretty clear one: A thought about the future or about the past is not different from any other thought, it comes and goes on its own and is made of nothing substantial, so memories about the past or predictions or fantasies about the future have no inherent reality, they just seem stickier at times because identification with a seemingly contained 'I' can happen more easily than it is the case with garden-variety thoughts.

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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Bluejay » Wed Nov 01, 2023 1:20 pm

And part of the allure of future thoughts is that it is assumed that they are accurate. Example: If you don't do X then Y will happen. There's no reality to that, but it is often taken as real until examined over and over.

At this point, you may find these two videos interesting:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

Also a few questions:

Is it 100% clear now that there is no inherent self thinking, feeling, and making things happen?

Is there something that is unclear that you still would like to cover?

How is everyday life? Has something changed or shifted since we started?

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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby trp » Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:10 am

Is it 100% clear now that there is no inherent self thinking, feeling, and making things happen?

Is there something that is unclear that you still would like to cover?

How is everyday life? Has something changed or shifted since we started?
When getting still or inquiring into it, there is a deep, unshakable knowing that an inherent self as a separate entity which is thinking, feeling, perceiving, and doing, is just a thought and has no substantial reality to it. So in that sense there is 100% clarity. However, vacillation, as talked in the videos, is still happening in everyday life, though, it seems, less frequently during the past two weeks, especially the sense of independent agency considerably loosened up. What has also been noticed, is a change regarding the arising of emotional material: Though mostly still related to identifiable external triggers, it seems to come up more and more kind of randomly, or at least not following familiar patterns. Sitting with emotions, dropping labels, and fully feeling sensations, has been becoming more and more important, so working with reactivity and the shadow (basically 4th&5th fetter stuff) seems to be the direction the process is heading. Any suggestions or advice in that respect would be highly appreciated (though I heard that LU basically covers fetters 1-3).

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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Bluejay » Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:19 am

When getting still or inquiring into it, there is a deep, unshakable knowing that an inherent self as a separate entity which is thinking, feeling, perceiving, and doing, is just a thought and has no substantial reality to it. So in that sense there is 100% clarity. However, vacillation, as talked in the videos, is still happening in everyday life, though, it seems, less frequently during the past two weeks, especially the sense of independent agency considerably loosened up.
Yes, usually the process goes back and forth, as mentioned in the videos. Each bit of conditioning that comes up is seen as not having an inherent self, and eventually it doesn't come back. This keeps going.

The main key is the feeling of agency. Do you still feel like you can change thoughts, control your life, and make things happen?
Sitting with emotions, dropping labels, and fully feeling sensations, has been becoming more and more important, so working with reactivity and the shadow (basically 4th&5th fetter stuff) seems to be the direction the process is heading. Any suggestions or advice in that respect would be highly appreciated (though I heard that LU basically covers fetters 1-3).
If F4/5 is coming up naturally, then that may be what to explore next. This path unfolds organically. All that is needed is to work with what arises.

LU only covers fetters 1-3, so if there's nothing else you would like to cover in regard to that, we can wrap up our conversation, and I can then share resources and communities that will help you explore F4/5 and deeper?

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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby trp » Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:48 am

The main key is the feeling of agency. Do you still feel like you can change thoughts, control your life, and make things happen?
At times, it still feels like a hard pill to swallow, and emotional resistance is showing up, but eventually, I always come back to the insight that it's not 'me' doing any of this (though, paradoxically, doings like setting intentions and inquiring are happening, which sometimes leads to a feeling of pure hilariousness).
LU only covers fetters 1-3, so if there's nothing else you would like to cover in regard to that, we can wrap up our conversation, and I can then share resources and communities that will help you explore F4/5 and deeper?
Yes, sounds great!

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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Bluejay » Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:51 am

At times, it still feels like a hard pill to swallow, and emotional resistance is showing up, but eventually, I always come back to the insight that it's not 'me' doing any of this (though, paradoxically, doings like setting intentions and inquiring are happening, which sometimes leads to a feeling of pure hilariousness).
Pure hilariousness is a good way of putting it! :)
Yes, sounds great!
Alright. I'll share the final questions in the next post and we can wrap.

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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby Bluejay » Thu Nov 02, 2023 10:51 am

Here you go. Feel free to take your time and enjoy!

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe how decisions are made & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

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Re: Looking for a guide

Postby trp » Thu Nov 02, 2023 9:32 pm

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, there is, never has been, and never will be a separate 'self' entity.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of a separate self arises when identification with a thought containing an 'I' happens. The more often an 'I' thought is believed (which seems, at an early developmental stage of a human being, an unavoidable, natural process), the more a centre, around which all perceptions revolve and to which all thinking refers, gets established, thus forming a feeling of a personal, separate self, navigating through life, doing and controlling things according to individual preferences and a personal will. But actually, the 'I' thought is always attached - after the fact - to the activities of seeing, hearing, sensing, smelling, tasting, and thinking, so the sense that there is an independent instance in charge of these happenings, is in reality an illusion.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
Overall, seeing this feels pretty natural. Only the bit about the illusion of agency feels like it needs to be still integrated. And this is no surprise, as it is also the part that somehow shifted over the course of the last week or so. When the dialogue started, it was somewhat clear that there is no separate self, and identification with thoughts was already pretty loose, but the full extent of seeing through self was not as realised as it feels to be now. So, in retrospect it seems that there was some sticky background belief around that led to an unconscious identifying with a 'doer', especially in respect to emotional work (that apparently 'I' had been doing), but this belief gradually lost it's grip over the last days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
It was the inquiry about control, especially the bit about the past ("Has there anybody ever been in control?'), which instantly hit and made the emotionally charged belief about a sense of agency related to 'healing' the past apparent.
5) Describe how decisions are made & give examples from experience.
Decisions are thoughts that arise completely out of conditions, and in themselves are conditions that lead (or don't lead) to further happenings. So, when this morning at breakfast time a tingly sensation in the belly was felt, and consequently the thought arose 'It might be better to have camomile tea', which lead to the action of brewing tea instead of, as usual, coffee, this was a coming together of circumstantial conditions (time of the day, breakfast habits, a sensation and its interpretation, etc. that contributed to a decision-making process resulting in a happening that in itself formed a new knot in the infinite, ever-changing web of interrelated conditions.
Describe intention & give examples from experience.
Intention is a particularly interesting phenomenon. It appears as thought, and as such its content is insubstantial as all thought, however, when coming from a place of authenticity, it can lend itself as a kind of vehicle for intuition and deeper intelligence - at least it seems so here, where the intention 'I want to give myself as fully as I can to the process' at some point arose and seemed to correspond with an acceleration of seeing through layers of identity.
Describe free will & give examples from experience.
When after an action or happening a thought appears saying 'I did this', thus claiming to be a separate entity having chosen freely between options in the first place, the believe that there is such as thing as free will can easily be established. In my experience, the believe of a free will is pretty much eroded, however sometimes it can momentarily resurface, mostly in cases when prompts and validation by others are involved, e.g. when I recently quitted a well-paid for a much lower paid job, and people applauded this 'courageous choice', a sense of proud on behalf of a separate, decision-making self arose. But these cases are pretty easily seen through and sometimes even comical due to the pretentious signature of ego ('Look, how great I am'). In other contexts a much subtler sense of agency can still linger under the surface (like in the aforementioned case of doing emotional work), but this seems to more and more clarify as well.
Describe choice & give examples from experience.
Choice seems to be an artefact of the above described decision making process. Though ultimately there is no choice as everything happens according to the totality of conditions, choice can nevertheless present itself - most obviously when externally evoked. So, when the barista asks me which coffee beans I'd like to have, a choice will be made, but this, of course, doesn't mean that there is a chooser. In my experience, it's more like a sequence of events: 1. I hear the question 'Would you like the Guatemala or the Aethopian roast?' - 2. I pause – 3. The answer comes: 'The Ethiopian roast, please'. In other, more complex cases there also might be thoughts involved (like in the above mentioned job issue where the decision-making process lasted a couple of days and included several thoughts and considerations), but it is pretty clear that the choice is made rather though me than by me, and this creates more and more a trust in the intelligence of intuition (and especially the inherent intelligence of the body).
Describe control & give examples from experience.
That there is such a thing as control exerted by individual agents is nothing other than an illusory believe, because everything is conditionally interrelated with everything else. This insight deepened, as mentioned before, in the course of the conversation considerably, as the previously rather intellectual understanding turned into a more visceral feel. It has become clearer that the attempt to control causes bodily contractions, which makes it much easier to forgo control in the first place. So e.g., when I moderate a discussion in class, every time something feels complicated and forceful, chances are that a subtle desire to control the course or outcome of the discussion is at play which, when recognised, can let go of rather easily.
What makes things happen? How does it work?
Somehow the totality of all conditions seem to make things happen, but a more honest answer would be: I have no clue, how all this works. The more this process advances, the more mysterious everything gets, and – marvellously enough -, the less I need to know.
What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
I'm not responsible for anything, as my experience, my thoughts, and my behaviour are not in my personal control, but 100% conditioned. This becomes particularly clear for me when things are just done without agenda or much thinking in a kind of flow state, which recently seems to happen more frequently both with simple daily tasks like cleaning, and also with more cognitive activities like writing texts or talking to people. This, of course, doesn't mean that, in a relative sense, mistakes for which responsibility needs to be taken, can happen (interestingly mostly, when interfering thoughts like doubts come into play), but also in these cases, there is ultimately nobody that could take on the responsibility.
6) Anything to add?
Not really, just that the conversation was very helpful, I enjoyed it immensely, and am full of gratitude.


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