Clearing doubts and Resistance and directing seeing

[Elad]

I am not able to make what is directly seen here more or less as it is by effort. There is a part of my mind that thinks I should be able to and some experience of frustration and self-criticism. It is difficult to know how to apply determination. I have attention to place but even that seems to have a life of its own.


Any sense of knowing or not knowing, understanding or not, or any sensation or thought, does not make what is directly seen more or less what is directly seen. So is there any type of effort or direction that I can make that will increase my ability to be with direct seeing rather than thinking ?I've been meditating and listening to Terrance Stephens today and yesterday. I am having some glimpse of the self as a object but I'm not sure it makes any difference, yet.

Good, right. We use words like focus and concentration, and relatively/conventionally speaking - for practical communication purposes - intention can make a difference and concentration can be improved. But you don't need special concentration skills to see through the separate self and also:

Is there any separate self or controller to control intention and attention? Investigate one moment at the time, here and now.

Investigate what intention and focus is in direct experience and where it comes from and how it goes. Can it be controlled or predicted? Does it exist as other then thought?

And keep seeing: could anything we say or think or do make direct experience more what it is??

[Villosa]

I'm having to go over these questions quite a lot. I find it difficult to hold them in mind and sometimes I'm not understanding the question and later I do understand it.


Is there any separate self or controller to control intention and attention? Investigate one moment at the time, here and now.

There still seems to be a separate self controlling intention and attention. Though at times I can see that attention and intention just arise.


Investigate what intention and focus is in direct experience and where it comes from and how it goes. Can it be controlled or predicted? Does it exist as other then thought?

Intention is a kind of thought. Attention is just a movement towards something. Though I can't say that is true because there is only what is in the mind like a thought, at any one time. Focus is becoming less distracted by thoughts that aren't related to a particular train of thought. It is also a tension in the body. It can't be controlled or predicted other than in thought.



And keep seeing: could anything we say or think or do make direct experience more what it is??

No It can't but I still want to be able to control it though. So not a direct seeing of direct seeing

[Elad]

The difficulties with focusing etc are not a bad sign. The body-mind reacts in uncontrolled unexpected ways as false beliefs are confronted.

What does it mean "it seems there is a self"? What does it mean "I" want to control? Be precise, no mere habitual repetition please. Could these just be a beliefs and misunderstandings? Try on that thought if you will, many short moments, see what is experienced.



Do this exercise:



Deeper Body Investigation

Here is a deeper investigation of the body. Please follow each step, don't leave out any. Take your time. Don't move to the next step until the previous one is clearly seen. Repeat the exercise several times. Stand in front of a bigger mirror.

(1) First, close the eyes and feel the sensations labelled ‘body’.

(2) Then open the eyes and look into the mirror while still paying attention to the sensations. Is there any connection between the felt sensations and the image in the mirror?
Or just thoughts (and/or mental images) suggest that there is?

(3) While still paying attention to the sensations move one hand and observe the movement from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and image of movement in the mirror?

(4) Now do the same movement with the hand, but this time look at the hand directly, not from the mirror. Is there any connection between the felt sensations (labelled ‘hand’) and the image ‘of movement’? Or only thoughts suggest it?

(5) Now, pay attention only to the image in the mirror.
Does the image by itself suggest in any way that is ‘you’ or ‘your body’? Does the image itself suggest in any way that it is a ‘body’ at all? Or are there only colours and shapes?

(6) Where the mirror ends, some parts of the body (probably legs) cannot be seen. Just by the image in the mirror, is there any ‘knowledge’ that there must be legs, or only thoughts and mental images suggest so?

(7) Now turn away from the mirror and look forward (don’t look directly to any body parts). Is there a ‘body’ anywhere when all thoughts and images are ignored, or are there only sensations?

(8) Start to walk slowly.
Is there a ‘body walking’, or are there only sensations? Is there actual experience of ‘walking’ at all? Or just THOUGHTS ABOUT ‘walking’? Can such a thing as ‘body’ be found OR just THOUGHTS ABOUT a ‘body’? Can such a thing as ‘walking’ be found?

(9) Are the sensations localized in space, like ‘going through the room’; OR is there only an image that is labelled ‘room’ and appearing sensations without any location?

[Villosa]

It took a few attempts to get to the end of this exercise.

1&2 I see there is no connection between the sensations of body and the image in the mirror other than thoughts.

3. The movement of the hand has no connection to the felt sensations other than thought.

4.. The movement of the hand and the sensations of that movement are only associated with the visual image of the hand through thought.

5. The image in the mirror is only forms and colours. It is only thought that tells me it is my body.
6. Yes only the mind says there are legs out of sight. There is no knowledge in the image that tells me this.

7. There is no body other than an image in the mind associated with the sensations.

8. There is no body walking other than the idea in the mind referring to the sensations in the body.

9 There is a subtle sense that the appearance of the room is an appearance with a label.

These direct seeings' above are very subtle the last one especially so. Also the mind comes in and says how important it is to use the labels to orientate in the world. There is a fear response to the thought that i might loose this.

[Elad]

It took a few attempts to get to the end of this exercise.

1&2 I see there is no connection between the sensations of body and the image in the mirror other than thoughts.

3. The movement of the hand has no connection to the felt sensations other than thought.

4.. The movement of the hand and the sensations of that movement are only associated with the visual image of the hand through thought.

5. The image in the mirror is only forms and colours. It is only thought that tells me it is my body.
6. Yes only the mind says there are legs out of sight. There is no knowledge in the image that tells me this.

7. There is no body other than an image in the mind associated with the sensations.

8. There is no body walking other than the idea in the mind referring to the sensations in the body.

9 There is a subtle sense that the appearance of the room is an appearance with a label.

These direct seeings' above are very subtle the last one especially so. Also the mind comes in and says how important it is to use the labels to orientate in the world. There is a fear response to the thought that i might loose this.

Great looking. You will not lose the capacity to orient constructively as you can now dear Ben. How is the heart in this process? Remember, we want this to be acts of love, and nothing needs to happen with you for you to be lovable and appreciated.

[Villosa]

Thank you Elad, I feel very held and supported in this process by you. I am feeling a degree of peacefulness in the process. though also frustration at times. i notice my thoughts of trying to manage the image that I think others may have of me. I am also somewhat detached from this. Its not that I am having more selfing thoughts more that I am more aware of the ones that I do have. I feel a sense of opening more to this process, more readiness perhaps. I can see the craziness of trying to understand as much as I could about non-duality. As you have pointed out and I see more clearly now, I just need to see what i am not. There is still some trepidation though. I am already prioritizing this over some practical things. Though everything is getting done, just at a slower pace. i know they are not the norm but I have heard stories of people having a clear realization and shift and then veging out. I'm a bit afraid of loosing motivation to do the necessary things in life, earn a living etc

[Elad]

Thank you Elad, I feel very held and supported in this process by you. I am feeling a degree of peacefulness in the process. though also frustration at times. i notice my thoughts of trying to manage the image that I think others may have of me. I am also somewhat detached from this. Its not that I am having more selfing thoughts more that I am more aware of the ones that I do have. I feel a sense of opening more to this process, more readiness perhaps. I can see the craziness of trying to understand as much as I could about non-duality. As you have pointed out and I see more clearly now, I just need to see what i am not. There is still some trepidation though. I am already prioritizing this over some practical things. Though everything is getting done, just at a slower pace. i know they are not the norm but I have heard stories of people having a clear realization and shift and then veging out. I'm a bit afraid of loosing motivation to do the necessary things in life, earn a living etc

Lovely Ben. You are not gonna be a veg, you are gonna live a life more in accordance with "your" dispositions, gifts and talents (those of the manifestation we call Ben now). It's gonna be more enjoyable and beneficial for you and others, and it will unfold in a wise and timely manner. Here is a nice exercise to pay attention to selfing thoughts. The key is to just relax with the seeing, it's not controlled by any of us, it doesn't say something about us, it just might illuminate something about thinking and selfing mechanisms. (I'm a little in doubt if you did it earlier, but it deserves a redoing).

[Elad]

“I” labelling

Get a sheet of paper and draw a line that divides that sheet in half. Label one half 'self' and the other side 'other'. Sit down and start a timer for 5 minutes. Every time you have a thought make a mark on the sheet. If that thought is about the self put a mark on the self side, if it’s about something else, mark the other side. If a thought about food occurs due to feeling hungry, mark that on the self side. Any thought that refers back to a self should go on the self side. (I'm bored, I'm tired, is the door locked (my safety) that video was funny (I was amused), my back hurts, I am frightened) get it?
Let me know how you go and what you notice.

[Villosa]

Thanks for your encouragement

Thoughts . Most of them are directly or indirectly about me. When i am sitting and paying attention to this. I hear a sound, attention goes to the sound, then a thought of what the sound is. If I need to be concerned about the sound then a self referential thought follows. If I don't need to be concerned about the sound my attention moves on to something else.
Then there are images like an image from a video I watched for instance, a still image, which appears and disappears. These thought images don't seem to be about me. There are also periods where there are indistinct movements in the mind like embryonic thoughts as if they are partially forming but difficult to say what they are they come and go fairly quickly. They don't seem to be specifically about me. I could suspect they are but it is unknown. There are strings and trains of thoughts short stories. They are about me. Then there are sensations and identifying of sensations like . Felt sensation followed by thought tightness in leg. Some times this leads to a short story like wondering why. This is an I thought. Sometimes it is just noticed and attention moves on. This is not an 'I thought ? So in this session about 85% of the thought were directly or indirectly about me. This was after meditating.

[Elad]

Thanks for your encouragement

Thoughts . Most of them are directly or indirectly about me. When i am sitting and paying attention to this. I hear a sound, attention goes to the sound, then a thought of what the sound is. If I need to be concerned about the sound then a self referential thought follows. If I don't need to be concerned about the sound my attention moves on to something else.
Then there are images like an image from a video I watched for instance, a still image, which appears and disappears. These thought images don't seem to be about me. There are also periods where there are indistinct movements in the mind like embryonic thoughts as if they are partially forming but difficult to say what they are they come and go fairly quickly. They don't seem to be specifically about me. I could suspect they are but it is unknown. There are strings and trains of thoughts short stories. They are about me. Then there are sensations and identifying of sensations like . Felt sensation followed by thought tightness in leg. Some times this leads to a short story like wondering why. This is an I thought. Sometimes it is just noticed and attention moves on. This is not an 'I thought ? So in this session about 85% of the thought were directly or indirectly about me. This was after meditating.

Nice! Now, can you see that some (most) of these thoughts conventionally speaking are about you, on further inspection all these thoughts just happen by themselves, and are not inherently about anything else, they don't refer to anything external in direct experience, and nothingis in control of them?

Please sit for 20 min and observe thoughts. Is it true?

[Villosa]

Yes most of these thoughts are about me or concerned with me. They just appear. All thoughts are happening by themselves. Thoughts that I am doing it are after thoughts and also arise by themselves. This is sometimes seen but the seeing a but elusive. I have spent quite a while on this this evening and it is a little clearer.. '

'They don't refer to anything external in direct experience'

Not sure about this. I mean they are thoughts about things in the world even if they are imaginations about these. I could say that they are not concerned with anything immediately happening that they are about future or past happenings, imaginings.

[Elad]

"Yes most of these thoughts are about me or concerned with me. They just appear. All thoughts are happening by themselves. Thoughts that I am doing it are after thoughts and also arise by themselves. This is sometimes seen but the seeing a but elusive. I have spent quite a while on this this evening and it is a little clearer.. '"

Good attending. And sure, habitual dream states die hard so to speak.

"Not sure about this. I mean they are thoughts about things in the world even if they are imaginations about these. I could say that they are not concerned with anything immediately happening that they are about future or past happenings, imaginings."

Your answer here comes from conventional analytical/philosophical thinking. On that level of course you are right that for example if you think you are a man it is more true then if you think you are a unicorn. This will not go away as long as we are living human life.

But to wake up we need to look only to direct experience. Can a thought ever touch direct experience? Can it touch, think, influence, refer? Or is it a mere appearance that has no meaning or power except what is given to it contextually?

Also, do this exercise:

[Elad]

Time Exercise

There is a general assumption that there is linear time that started (if started at all) somewhere very far in the past and advances to the distant future. The present moment (now) is considered to be a very small fragment of time, or an event that is moving forward on a linear line, coming from the past and advancing to the future.

But is there an experience of the ’now’ moving along the line of time? Any experience of one ‘moment’ giving way to the next?
Is there any actual or direct experience of one event following another?
How fast is the ‘present moment’ actually moving?
Just look at 'this moment', can you find a point where it began? How long does the ‘now’ last?
Where does the ‘now’ start, and where does it end?
When does the ‘now’ exactly become the 'past'?
What is the ‘past’ in actual experience?
So is there actual experience of ‘time’ or thoughts about ‘time’?

[Villosa]

A thought cannot touch direct experience. A thought cannot touch or think. But it does seem to be able to refer or point to something. Also there appears to be something in-between the thoughts. One thought arises then another thought arises as if across the gap. One thought instigating the other. As one thought is influencing the next. Or they are mediated by some intelligence residing in the gap between them. The thoughts do not have any meaning other than that which is given them in the context. Salience is also given to them and they become bigger and brighter when salience is given to them. Salience is like a pulse or a switch to turn up the intensity of the thought. This just happens but there is a subtle idea that this is directed from the gap between the two thought streams. One thought arises and can become a train of thought then another thought arises to comment on or modify the stream. The thought themselves have no life of their own but they are enlivened by their salience. which is given to them. There is logic to the salience but that is unseen unless inquired into.



The time line is an image in the mind. There is no experience of a now moving along a time line. One moment does not give way to another. one moment is created by bracketing events. There is an idea that one event follows another. It is assumed to be the case. There is no direct experience of events following on from each other.
The present moment does not have a speed of travel but it has a duration set by the events that make up the moment. These events have a larger volume based on the contents of the list of events. The more events in the conceptualized moment the longer its duration. This is only seemingly so. I can't tell how long a moment is. It begins with the beginning of the describing of it and ends with the final point of the description.
The past is a thought.
There is no experience of time only thoughts about it

From the beginning of when the term direct experience was introduced i have been unclear about what it is. Sometimes just being confused. I feel like I am starting to get a sense of what it is. Can I directly experience a thought or is a thought the antithesis of direct experience ?

[Elad]

A thought cannot touch direct experience. A thought cannot touch or think. But it does seem to be able to refer or point to something. Also there appears to be something in-between the thoughts. One thought arises then another thought arises as if across the gap. One thought instigating the other. As one thought is influencing the next. Or they are mediated by some intelligence residing in the gap between them. The thoughts do not have any meaning other than that which is given them in the context. Salience is also given to them and they become bigger and brighter when salience is given to them. Salience is like a pulse or a switch to turn up the intensity of the thought. This just happens but there is a subtle idea that this is directed from the gap between the two thought streams. One thought arises and can become a train of thought then another thought arises to comment on or modify the stream. The thought themselves have no life of their own but they are enlivened by their salience. which is given to them. There is logic to the salience but that is unseen unless inquired into.



The time line is an image in the mind. There is no experience of a now moving along a time line. One moment does not give way to another. one moment is created by bracketing events. There is an idea that one event follows another. It is assumed to be the case. There is no direct experience of events following on from each other.
The present moment does not have a speed of travel but it has a duration set by the events that make up the moment. These events have a larger volume based on the contents of the list of events. The more events in the conceptualized moment the longer its duration. This is only seemingly so. I can't tell how long a moment is. It begins with the beginning of the describing of it and ends with the final point of the description.
The past is a thought.
There is no experience of time only thoughts about it

From the beginning of when the term direct experience was introduced i have been unclear about what it is. Sometimes just being confused. I feel like I am starting to get a sense of what it is. Can I directly experience a thought or is a thought the antithesis of direct experience ?

Very good things are clarifying. Any term is at best a pointer to that which is beyond any concept. So it is also with "direct experience". Your question at the end is great, it indicates attentiveness which is the heart of this. So look at it yourself. Can a thought be directly experienced? Or is direct experience only there in the absence of thought? Could direct experience ever truly not be there? Even in the direct experience of confusion or the direct experience of believing in a fiction? Is direct experience in any way dependent on "you" (fiction)?

Here is a Buddhist sutra for inspiration: