Beautiful. Again, my sense is you are through the gate. After the gate the majority of us have lots of letting go of unhelpful beliefs still. I often work with such myself. No self does not mean no exploration and work. Processes of discernment and development happen by themselves within the ongoing surrender to truth.
There are many different ways. Sometimes conventional therapeutic modalities help. Lots of postgaters benefit from the work of Byron Katie. Lots of postgaters benefit from the framework of the "10 fetters" of Buddhism. In that framework LU work pertains to the first 3 fetters and what you talk about here roughly pertain to fetter 4/5 work. There are groups with postgaters to continue this work. I will invite you to them once we finish here. For now I'll give you a hint to work with your question today:
- Identify the thought you believe and find stressful.
- now look: is it true?
- can you absolutely know it's true?
- what happens when you believe it's true?
- what happens if you see it's only a story?
- how could life move more freely without this belief?
This is *roughly* in line with Byron Katies work.
Also watch this video:
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w?si=lvhWEUjXFsM6yYwF
Let me know what you have seen and felt, reading, seeing and attending to the above.
Warmly,
Elad
Eager to Begin!
Re: Eager to Begin!
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Eager to Begin!
Thank you very much, Elad! This is all very helpful. In the video Ilona says: It is interesting to look at mind and emotions when you know they are not you and can explore them freely.
I have always run from negative emotions, wanting to feel good and believing focusing on the negative was detrimental. I already feel so much lighter and now curious to explore!
Warmly,
Maureen
I have always run from negative emotions, wanting to feel good and believing focusing on the negative was detrimental. I already feel so much lighter and now curious to explore!
Warmly,
Maureen
Re: Eager to Begin!
Right on 💗💗💗
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Eager to Begin!
Dear Elad,
I found it so helpful yesterday to ask myself the Byron Katie questions. The most impactful question was the one about a story. With that the entire scene seemed to move away from me. It no longer felt in my face, rather more distant than it had been. Worry and tension disappeared completely! It felt like magic but I know it was an allowing of a different perspective. This morning I continue to feel the lightness of my being, and ease within my body that feels delicious. Today I find thoughts less plentiful, less noisy.
I did expect that along with recognizing not self would come other shifts of perspective. That like dominoes this important understanding would spontaneously lead to other shifts. However I like the ongoing adventure of this, looking at life through newly opened eyes. So much to explore!
My sense of not self feels clear. An understanding that was easy to come by through direct looking at experience. I'm surprised at how ordinary this discovery feels! No balloons and streamers. No marching bands. Just " oh ya, this is how it is."
Yet there is a hum of excitement in me. I can't find the words to explain that. I feel essentially the same, life looks the same, yet I know this new understanding destabilizes the very foundation of all that I have previously accepted as true. I am curious to experience how that will play out!
Warmly,
Maureen
I found it so helpful yesterday to ask myself the Byron Katie questions. The most impactful question was the one about a story. With that the entire scene seemed to move away from me. It no longer felt in my face, rather more distant than it had been. Worry and tension disappeared completely! It felt like magic but I know it was an allowing of a different perspective. This morning I continue to feel the lightness of my being, and ease within my body that feels delicious. Today I find thoughts less plentiful, less noisy.
I did expect that along with recognizing not self would come other shifts of perspective. That like dominoes this important understanding would spontaneously lead to other shifts. However I like the ongoing adventure of this, looking at life through newly opened eyes. So much to explore!
My sense of not self feels clear. An understanding that was easy to come by through direct looking at experience. I'm surprised at how ordinary this discovery feels! No balloons and streamers. No marching bands. Just " oh ya, this is how it is."
Yet there is a hum of excitement in me. I can't find the words to explain that. I feel essentially the same, life looks the same, yet I know this new understanding destabilizes the very foundation of all that I have previously accepted as true. I am curious to experience how that will play out!
Warmly,
Maureen
Re: Eager to Begin!
Dear Maureen, this beautiful and crystal clear. Please answer the questions below. I and 3 other guides will review your answers and see if it is appropriate to "graduate you from LU" at this point, or if something calls for more clarification. After graduating you can still ask me questions, and will also have the opportunity to interact with other postgaters and guides.
Enjoy these, answer from direct experience:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
Enjoy these, answer from direct experience:
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?
5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen?
How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.
6) Anything to add?
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Eager to Begin!
Ps. Please answer them all in one post quoting the questions and answering below.
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Eager to Begin!
Hi Elad!
Oooh, I love this! I am looking forward to a long drink at the introspective fountain! But first, can you clarify #4?
") What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?"
I have been looking, and not finding self, since we began our conversation. Are you referring to this last bit of shift in me? Where I now own it and feel comfortable with where I am?
Warmly,
Maureen
Oooh, I love this! I am looking forward to a long drink at the introspective fountain! But first, can you clarify #4?
") What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?"
I have been looking, and not finding self, since we began our conversation. Are you referring to this last bit of shift in me? Where I now own it and feel comfortable with where I am?
Warmly,
Maureen
Re: Eager to Begin!
Yes 🤍
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Eager to Begin!
Hi Elad,
I dove into the questions yesterday and enthusiastically answered "no!" to question number 1.
Question number two however did not come easily. I have never before thought about the illusion of separate self and found myself awkward in trying to articulate it. Throughout the day I kept trying. In my desire to get the job done I ignored feelings of stress and anxiety.
Just now in writing to you this has become clear and I paused to answer Byron Katie's questions. I did not need to go beyond the first question to feel a lot better! What do I believe? I believe I need to get these questions answered now. And I believe I should be able to answer them easily. (I'm sure there are other underlying beliefs but these worked for now.)
Identifying the belief I quickly saw the untruth in them which resulted in a release of stress and anxiety.
I see the importance of being aware of discomfort in my body and taking the time right away if possible to inquire into it. In this way I can release old habits and more fully integrate my new perceptions.
My grandsons will be visiting, on their own, for 3 days. It is my desire to be fully present and loving, giving them the time and space to recharge from a stressful start of school. To that end I will set aside your questions for now and lovingly tend to myself as well.
Warmly,
Maureen
I dove into the questions yesterday and enthusiastically answered "no!" to question number 1.
Question number two however did not come easily. I have never before thought about the illusion of separate self and found myself awkward in trying to articulate it. Throughout the day I kept trying. In my desire to get the job done I ignored feelings of stress and anxiety.
Just now in writing to you this has become clear and I paused to answer Byron Katie's questions. I did not need to go beyond the first question to feel a lot better! What do I believe? I believe I need to get these questions answered now. And I believe I should be able to answer them easily. (I'm sure there are other underlying beliefs but these worked for now.)
Identifying the belief I quickly saw the untruth in them which resulted in a release of stress and anxiety.
I see the importance of being aware of discomfort in my body and taking the time right away if possible to inquire into it. In this way I can release old habits and more fully integrate my new perceptions.
My grandsons will be visiting, on their own, for 3 days. It is my desire to be fully present and loving, giving them the time and space to recharge from a stressful start of school. To that end I will set aside your questions for now and lovingly tend to myself as well.
Warmly,
Maureen
Re: Eager to Begin!
Dear Maureen,
This answer is in fact a great answer! Showing by doing. Regarding the question about "how does it come about", this is part of LU tradition, but if we are fully clear, it in fact invites storytelling rather than just attending to what is. The most important thing when answering these questions is to stay close to what is really clear in your direct experience. Insight is seeing, not cognizing, after all, and is about seeing the constructed nature of stories, not about creating new ones, all though it's fine to do that for fun and pragmatic purposes as well. So to sum it up, I salute the process you described in your text today, and I encourage you when you answer the questions moving forward to NOT work hard to explain with the mind. Describe what is SEEN in direct experience and what seems clear. And saying "I don't know" about certain things can be a fine part of clarity. Enjoy with your grandsons and yourself!
Warmly,
Elad
This answer is in fact a great answer! Showing by doing. Regarding the question about "how does it come about", this is part of LU tradition, but if we are fully clear, it in fact invites storytelling rather than just attending to what is. The most important thing when answering these questions is to stay close to what is really clear in your direct experience. Insight is seeing, not cognizing, after all, and is about seeing the constructed nature of stories, not about creating new ones, all though it's fine to do that for fun and pragmatic purposes as well. So to sum it up, I salute the process you described in your text today, and I encourage you when you answer the questions moving forward to NOT work hard to explain with the mind. Describe what is SEEN in direct experience and what seems clear. And saying "I don't know" about certain things can be a fine part of clarity. Enjoy with your grandsons and yourself!
Warmly,
Elad
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Eager to Begin!
Hi Elad,
I don't know the LU process for matching guides to seekers but I am certainly grateful that you found your way to me! I appreciate your encouragement and your validation. And often you make a somewhat unrelated comment that is exactly what I need to hear!
Your comment about storytelling not being helpful in answering a question clarified for me the reason for my challenge with question 2. I thought I was being asked to give an overview of the illusion as it relates to society in general. And really I have no idea, but thought I should!
"The most important thing when answering these questions is to stay close to what is really clear in your direct experience."
This is such a helpful pointer! I can certainly speak to my own experience. It is what I most enjoy doing and the act of putting it down in words is a very satisfying part of my process.
Thanks again, Elad, for being part of this journey with me!
Warmly,
Maureen
I don't know the LU process for matching guides to seekers but I am certainly grateful that you found your way to me! I appreciate your encouragement and your validation. And often you make a somewhat unrelated comment that is exactly what I need to hear!
Your comment about storytelling not being helpful in answering a question clarified for me the reason for my challenge with question 2. I thought I was being asked to give an overview of the illusion as it relates to society in general. And really I have no idea, but thought I should!
"The most important thing when answering these questions is to stay close to what is really clear in your direct experience."
This is such a helpful pointer! I can certainly speak to my own experience. It is what I most enjoy doing and the act of putting it down in words is a very satisfying part of my process.
Thanks again, Elad, for being part of this journey with me!
Warmly,
Maureen
Re: Eager to Begin!
Thank you dear Maureen, so pleased to read all this, and see this beautiful movement your sharings 🌻
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Eager to Begin!
Good morning, Elad!
I got it! The illusion of the separate self! Thoughts are not real I know. And yet my mind has created an elaborate story, in fact many interwoven stories that feature me as the main character. And I have inhabited this world and seen it as real and true. What an illusion! It really is very funny. Walking around in a storyland when simple inquiry shows these stories to be unreal. And myself as the controller, a total farce. It is so funny to see this. I've been walking around like an actor in a play and now I can take my costume off and experience life as it truly is!
Blessings abound!
Maureen
I got it! The illusion of the separate self! Thoughts are not real I know. And yet my mind has created an elaborate story, in fact many interwoven stories that feature me as the main character. And I have inhabited this world and seen it as real and true. What an illusion! It really is very funny. Walking around in a storyland when simple inquiry shows these stories to be unreal. And myself as the controller, a total farce. It is so funny to see this. I've been walking around like an actor in a play and now I can take my costume off and experience life as it truly is!
Blessings abound!
Maureen
Re: Eager to Begin!
This message shines bright like a 💎🥰
With love,
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Elad
Keep me away from the wisdom which does not cry, the philosophy which does not laugh and the greatness which does not bow before children.
- Kahlil Gibran
One gets there by being there.
- Master Woof (Gilbert, Ta Hui)
Re: Eager to Begin!
Hi Elad!
I just had to share! Seeing not self and the lack of controller was obviously an important first step. But there weren't many changes within me that I could notice. But seeing the illusion of the separate self has been a game changer! Seeing thoughts and stories for what they are and being able to differentiate between them and direct experience has had a very noticeable impact. My mind is quieter and when stories do begin I find I'm aware and easily able to shift back to direct experience. I have a number of things to do today to get ready for my grandsons. This situation would normally result in stress and anxiety for me. But today I am feeling super calm and relaxed! I don't feel rushed or pressured. Everything and more is getting done with enjoyment. Time seems to be a non-issue. Life is feeling very sweet!
I'm loving this!
Warmly,
Maureen
I just had to share! Seeing not self and the lack of controller was obviously an important first step. But there weren't many changes within me that I could notice. But seeing the illusion of the separate self has been a game changer! Seeing thoughts and stories for what they are and being able to differentiate between them and direct experience has had a very noticeable impact. My mind is quieter and when stories do begin I find I'm aware and easily able to shift back to direct experience. I have a number of things to do today to get ready for my grandsons. This situation would normally result in stress and anxiety for me. But today I am feeling super calm and relaxed! I don't feel rushed or pressured. Everything and more is getting done with enjoyment. Time seems to be a non-issue. Life is feeling very sweet!
I'm loving this!
Warmly,
Maureen
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