The Gate

Kk :)

Gm

hi,

Question. If It is clear that the chase for liberation is not the problem, as we all got into delusion before starting the search. So, why would there be a shift when that subsides? I suspect that here he refers not to that craving but to general sense of feeling better somewhere in the future, but even if that subsides, why would that release one from buying the lie of separation? Since it all ties back to a sense of a self, wouldn't investigating that and seeing that it can't be found repeatedly, be a more sensible path? On the other hand all of this is another attempt to conceptualize, just thought.

Dimos

forgot to mention

Watching this prompted that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6GsCclJ ... ellStephen

Dimos

Dimos,

Question. If It is clear that the chase for liberation is not the problem, as we all got into delusion before starting the search. So, why would there be a shift when that subsides?

Good question. Before the chase for liberation, we were chasing for something else in an everyday, modern man, kind of way. Searching for comfort, pushing away discomfort. Seeking pleasure, struggling with pain.

Realizing the futility and pain of that chase, we set our eyes on the loftiest of chases, the chase that would end all chasing!! lol... Good intentions, really, and starting to look in the right place.

I suspect that here he refers not to that craving but to general sense of feeling better somewhere in the future, but even if that subsides, why would that release one from buying the lie of separation?

The illusion of separation is built on several beliefs, a core one being that something could be / needs to be different. This then sets the stage for the need for a self, a 'me', who is able to push and pull on things to get what I want. When things stop needing to be different, the self structure becomes less sticky and can be seen clearer for what it is.

Since it all ties back to a sense of a self, wouldn't investigating that and seeing that it can't be found repeatedly, be a more sensible path? On the other hand all of this is another attempt to conceptualize, just thought.

Yes, quite sensible, indeed. When the self structure is seen more and more clearly, a natural effect is less chasing, reaching for, pushing and pulling on life, because the entity or substance that seemed to be doing that is starting to dissolve.

So trying to get yourself to stop chasing is a dead end. That's chasing away chasing, a dog chasing it's own tail. But self inquiry is a poignant side-road into this, undermining that which appears to be chasing.

And a side note, it's important to refrain from coming to the conclusion that nothing can be found, or to any other conclusion. Just thoughts and conceptualize as you acknowledge. Stay open to what IS, remain open to the unknown.

Just my take,
Gunnar

And a side note, it's important to refrain from coming to the conclusion that nothing can be found, or to any other conclusion. Just thoughts and conceptualize as you acknowledge. Stay open to what IS, remain open to the unknown.

So, seeing the futility of doing. How does one keep unfolding, what keeps the process going?

Dimos,

So, seeing the futility of doing. How does one keep unfolding, what keeps the process going?

What causes the sound you hear right now, the visual field, sensations, what causes them to unfold? What keeps them going? Thought-based answers can't take you very deep into this. No answer will suffice. Keep looking and find out for yourself, beyond yourself.

Gunnar

Do you find that craving can hold you pack from seeing truth? Not only in the moment it occurs but as an after effect. Let's say the craving for something arises but then it is satisfied while even being mindful of the process. After that is it possible that the fact that there is a momentum or some underlying structure around craving, can that be a hold back?

But then even an identity can be built around abstaining and being correct. For sure there is something of that with me with being vegetarian etc.

Maybe not so important just wanted your take.

Also, something on the previous question. I more wonder: what can ensure continuity and depth of seeing, is it just a desire to see what is there really?

Dimos,

Do you find that craving can hold you pack from seeing truth? Not only in the moment it occurs but as an after effect. Let's say the craving for something arises but then it is satisfied while even being mindful of the process. After that is it possible that the fact that there is a momentum or some underlying structure around craving, can that be a hold back?

No, I don't think so. Before deeper realization, to some degree, we are all addicted to certain external things for comfort / pleasure. But if we break down that word addiction, we're just talking about a strong pull towards something which is natural. The pull towards food, sex, shelter, could be seen as natural and fine. So what about to TV and junk food. It's the same biological process in a way, just towards unnecessary, unnatural things. And then conditioning that tells us we SHOULDN'T be doing this and then comes in all the neuroticism.

Random story... My grandparents feed raccoons in their backyard all this junk food, oreos, cookies, etc. The raccoons are overweight, unhealthy, and you could say addicted. But there's likely no neuroticism, no self, no suffering in it for them. So 'addiction' or 'craving' so to speak isn't the big issue persay.

But then even an identity can be built around abstaining and being correct. For sure there is something of that with me with being vegetarian etc.

Indeed! It's the identity piece at the core of suffering. The belief that there is actually a me somewhere in here pulling the strings, calling the shots. And, a belief that there is a 'right' way to do things (3rd fetter - belief in rights and rituals).

Is that 'I' or 'me' in thought pointing to something or some place where decision/urges are made? Don't need to focus so much on craving/aversion at this point. Rather, the sense of agency, control, identity at the core of those push and pull movements.

Also, something on the previous question. I more wonder: what can ensure continuity and depth of seeing, is it just a desire to see what is there really?

It's depends. It usually comes out of things like: burning fascination / curiosity, desperation, exhaustion, frustration, a deep peace/equanimity that allows for clarity, near death experience that shakes up priorities, intense suffering.

A desire to see what is really there may come out of these experiences. But you don't need any spectacular motivation or reason persay, you being here now and looking in this way, the conditions are wonderful. Just remember that direct experience will open the way, and conceptual matters will often suspend it. Trust experience and inquire into who you are. Stay with that felt sense of you. What is it really? But don't come to a thought conclusion as though you've already seen it a hundred times. Like 'there's nothing' 'I've already seen this' 'I get to this vague openness' etc.

Stay fresh in not knowing :)
Gunnar

Hey Dimos, I felt inspired to reach out, how are you? How's the looking?

Gunnar

Hi,

Feel like there is no time to look close enough, that ordinary life is taking over in a sense and accepting that as this is how life comes and I do things I enjoy. But I find my self looking for very short amounts of time. Either there is work and things to be done or I indulge in some other thing. But why wouldn't it be possible for both to coexist, not sure, its just the way things are, busy days make a deeper looking less likely to happen.

In this I often forget how to investigate the sense of self and because the time being the character is much more, it feels quite effortful to do so.

Despite that when it occurres to me a few times a day, I look with brutal honesty to all that feels like a self and have the thought "what in all of that is me, what proof is there for that" and look to all the mental images and sensations popping up ,or the visual field that often implies that self sense.

What dawned on me though is that I am done with anxiety or stress, life is too short for that.
Every time it comes , I want to see it thoroughly for exactly what it is, a set of thoughts, images about the future and nothing wrong with that what so ever.

Dimos,

Feel like there is no time to look close enough, that ordinary life is taking over in a sense and accepting that as this is how life comes and I do things I enjoy. But I find my self looking for very short amounts of time. Either there is work and things to be done or I indulge in some other thing. But why wouldn't it be possible for both to coexist, not sure, its just the way things are, busy days make a deeper looking less likely to happen.

Ya, I think this is normal and fine. Doing things you enjoy, trusting the season, phase, period of life, unfolding as it does. Before you know it, you'll be on retreat or traveling. It's all fine and uncontrollable. Just remain open to seeing where all activity, decisions, thoughts, are emanating from. Just noticing, is there a 'me', an 'I' that is making all this happen? And when periods of deeper looking arise in meditation or spontaneously, enjoy that and let it express itself, and let it pass when it's done. See how much you can release your grip on the wheel of life, and then explore that sense of whatever is still holding on. What are you afraid of?

In this I often forget how to investigate the sense of self and because the time being the character is much more, it feels quite effortful to do so.

Yes, par for the course.

Despite that when it occurs to me a few times a day, I look with brutal honesty to all that feels like a self and have the thought "what in all of that is me, what proof is there for that" and look to all the mental images and sensations popping up ,or the visual field that often implies that self sense.

Wonderful.

What dawned on me though is that I am done with anxiety or stress, life is too short for that.
Every time it comes , I want to see it thoroughly for exactly what it is, a set of thoughts, images about the future and nothing wrong with that what so ever.

This sounds like a lovely opening. How did it arise? Did 'you' make that initial urge towards this happen? Or did it just come up strongly on its own and subsequent thoughts taking ownership for the urge came next?

Blessings,
Gunnar

This sounds like a lovely opening. How did it arise? Did 'you' make that initial urge towards this happen? Or did it just come up strongly on its own and subsequent thoughts taking ownership for the urge came next?

It is a gradual maturing of years of working with emotions. Also the desire to not suffer or the seeing that it's pointless as resistance feeds it not reality. And yes it came up naturally after seeing how resisting all that perpetuates it and this "I want to response off it by confronting it directly" attitude arose, that immediately implied a doer. But there was no decision in that moment for this to happen.

Best

Dimos

Dimos,

It is a gradual maturing of years of working with emotions. Also the desire to not suffer or the seeing that it's pointless as resistance feeds it not reality. And yes it came up naturally after seeing how resisting all that perpetuates it and this "I want to response off it by confronting it directly" attitude arose, that immediately implied a doer. But there was no decision in that moment for this to happen.

:)

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Tied into your writing above, this work is not something separate from normal daily life. The best way to approach this is to use daily life as juice to work with.. You might explore this inquiry in sitting and throughout the day at times: what am I missing to wake up (or some variation of this that resonates). What is missing here now? What tells me I'm not awake? and look into direct experience and find 'that thing'. And notice thoughts as thoughts and return to the direct inquiry.

G

This hits where in hurts most. Immediately frustration bubbles up. Thanks

Lovely, welcome :) Go there and feel, keep inquiring.

G