Looking for a guide

[Bluejay]

Just to check should this be said aloud? Or doesn't matter?

I meant for it to be silent, but you can try aloud if the opportunity presents itself. See if there's a difference.

[okjose]

Hi Henri,

So I was doing this a fair bit yesterday and this morning. At first I noticed the mind would go very quiet after asking the question. Then there was a lot of thinking about the question, what it meant and a feeling like a separate self was asking. I then realised I was looking solely at the mind and not in DE and just waiting like instructed. When followed properly, I'd notice mind chatter but when that passed I'd notice a feeling of tension or subtle tightness and a morphing sensation around the solar plexus area, like a feeling of frustration and although a difficult sensation to stay with it's kind of interesting to feel and not being labeled as bad.

[Bluejay]

So I was doing this a fair bit yesterday and this morning. At first I noticed the mind would go very quiet after asking the question. Then there was a lot of thinking about the question, what it meant and a feeling like a separate self was asking. I then realised I was looking solely at the mind and not in DE and just waiting like instructed. When followed properly, I'd notice mind chatter but when that passed I'd notice a feeling of tension or subtle tightness and a morphing sensation around the solar plexus area, like a feeling of frustration and although a difficult sensation to stay with it's kind of interesting to feel and not being labeled as bad.

This is very good.

This tension or tightness, stay with it, and imagine clenching a ball in your hand and letting go. It takes no effort to let go. Just relax into the tension. Be open to any images, words, or wisdom it may share.

Sitting with it like this may take minutes or days or more. Just be with it without an expectation of it going away.

What do you find?

[okjose]

Hi Henri,


Shortly after reading your reply I started to feel into the tightness but then I got distracted surfing the web. After about an hour of watching youtube videos about completely unrelated stuff I realised I was avoiding doing this for some reason (actually I think I was aware I was avoiding the whole time).
I then decided to stop what I was doing and go into the feeling of tightness. The feeling seemed to not be findable any longer so I asked the question again, "There is no inherent self, is it true?". As soon as the word "true" was said I noticed the response from the body that was tightness and morphing sensation in the solar plexus. I then also noticed a tight feeling in the middle of my head and I believe this head tightness is from so much focus put there from imagining that's where my inner voice and thought come from. As I was feeling into this I noticed I was feeling tired and uncomfotable so I thought I'll go and do this lying down in bed.
This turned into a long heavy sleep with lots of intense stressful dreams. I then awoke and continued but there was a very familiar feeling of anxiety and gloom. I thought, okay, I just need to stay with this feeling.
I kept feeling into it but then thoughts of "am I doing some damage here" and fear that the feeling would never go away came.
The anxiety went on all day and into he night and when I woke up this morning and the anxiety was still there.
So lying in bed this morning I asked the question again and was trying to go deep into the sensations.
I was lying there trying to allow the feeling of anxiety to be there but it just felt stuck in a cycle. Then I saw that there was a layer of shame / a thought saying these feelings shouldn't be here. That was perpetuating the anxiety keeping it stuck. As soon as that was noticed I said to the anxiety feeling again, "you are allowed to be here" and felt love for it and then noticed the shame and just acknowledged it was here and why it was here and that it made sense. Anyway to try and cut a long story short as soon as the shame was discovered I was able to tell the feelings "you are allowed to be here" the fear and anxiety blossomed / dissapted. It moved up through the body and left like it was set free leaving a nice feeling.

I've experience a similar experience of anxiety being set free once before while listening to a guided process by Henry Shukman, a lot similar to Ilona's deep looking video. What was a bit of a revelation this time was to notice shame working / a thought that the feeling shouldn't be here...

I now feel light and anxiety free. What you said about past traumas and alsonlistening to Ilona's deep looking video makes so much sense of what happens in the body during traumatic events. Fear and contraction originally came top to protect but after the event they were never relived of their duty so to speak. And they've been trapped in the body and triggered over and over but never fully acknowledged. I realise there are so many beliefs and trapped traumas and I'll continue to feel into them and hopefully set them free or just be able to show them love and see them and why they're here.

I keep remembering a John Wheeler saying one of his interviews that the "I" thought is the lynch pin. That which all fear and suffering revolves around.

Sorry for the long post. I'm glad this all happened as I'm learning so much from it.

[Bluejay]

Everything you said and did sounds excellent. Don't want to quote the whole block here.

Usually with these things there are layers of feelings and thoughts that come with those. For example, shame often seems to come with thoughts such as: "don't look here" and "something bad will happen" and just a general sense of fear, danger, unease.

Your way of meeting the shame was masterful, because the best way to meet shame is with love and welcoming.

Whenever an intense sense of restlessness or wanting to distract comes up, it's a good sign that something needs attention. It's like a Check Engine light in a car. And in the Inner GPS sense it's a sign that a falsehood is being believed.

I keep remembering a John Wheeler saying one of his interviews that the "I" thought is the lynch pin. That which all fear and suffering revolves around.

This is definitely true for me. Before seeing through the self, I spent almost ten years in a dark night of the soul / anguish / deep suffering, and it disappeared after self was seen through.

So what is your experience with there being a self right now?

Is there a controller, doer, agent, hearer, seer, feeler, and so on?

[okjose]

Thank you that's all so helpful to hear.

So what is your experience with there being a self right now?

To be honest I don't know but the first thing that happened when I read this question was a feeling of restlessness and frustration like what you describe here:

Whenever an intense sense of restlessness or wanting to distract comes up, it's a good sign that something needs attention. It's like a Check Engine light in a car. And in the Inner GPS sense it's a sign that a falsehood is being believed.

There's still the belief in a "me" I would say. Theres some confusion and frustration here though. I want to have a fresh look and see and internally ask some direct questions maybe. I've actually rewritten a response about 3 times as I keep investigating then going down a rabbit whole and getting a bit lost and frustrated. I'm getting confused as to what a self is but at the same time theres a voice inside saying "I'm a me look i'm here!" But the frustration comes when I see it as a thought. Then what's left is some sensation in the belly. I feel like I need to ask some direct questions to "myself".

Is there a controller, doer, agent, hearer, seer, feeler, and so on?

When I read this question it's less frustrating as it's easier to see there's no controller, hearer, seer, feeler but "agent" and doer" trigger a sense of me more. Or feel triggering even. Like a sensation in the core of the body.

[Bluejay]

There's still the belief in a "me" I would say. Theres some confusion and frustration here though. I want to have a fresh look and see and internally ask some direct questions maybe. I've actually rewritten a response about 3 times as I keep investigating then going down a rabbit whole and getting a bit lost and frustrated. I'm getting confused as to what a self is but at the same time theres a voice inside saying "I'm a me look i'm here!" But the frustration comes when I see it as a thought. Then what's left is some sensation in the belly. I feel like I need to ask some direct questions to "myself".

This frustration might be good to do deep looking on to see what it is protecting.

The voice saying "I'm a me, look here" brings up an image in my mind like the one below I found on Google:



The mind draws an image or creates a voice and says "I'm here!"

It's similar to the furry monster above. It exists. Just look! I don't know. I found it funny :)

It's also useful at this stage to start noticing how the 'I' is created. It's usually through two or more senses combined. For example: sensations in the chest, with an image, a voice, and the thought 'I'm here'.

So when there's a voice that says "I'm here," look at the senses individually. What is actually there?

When I read this question it's less frustrating as it's easier to see there's no controller, hearer, seer, feeler but "agent" and doer" trigger a sense of me more. Or feel triggering even. Like a sensation in the core of the body.

This is fine. It seems like there's more and more wobbling going on.

A good way to look at this is perhaps to see it as a computer when you're loading something, yet in this instance it's more a process of uninstalling a program. It goes from 0% to 1% to 3.2% and so on.

It's helpful to view it this way instead of 0% to 100%. How this process unfolds is also unique, so there's no knowing what's going on, and there's no need to know.

I'll give you a few things to play with during the day. You can also inquiry into the frustration you mentioned.

The key is to start noticing how decisions are made. Where is the agent or doer?

1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed? Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?

Again, separate the senses. Are sensations commanding the body? Are thoughts? Can images decide?

2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

Take these questions with you during the day and choose one to focus on for, say, an hour or two, then switch if the urge arises.

While the questions are specific (leaving the bed and falling asleep), you can apply them to anything. If you're making breakfast, modify the question like this: Where does the 'decision', the 'command' to make breakfast come from?

Is a thought making breakfast? Is a sensation putting butter on toast? What is going on?

And so on...

Let me know if you have questions :)

[okjose]

The mind draws an image or creates a voice and says "I'm here!"

It's similar to the furry monster above. It exists. Just look! I don't know. I found it funny :)

This made me laugh, as soon as I saw the image I knew what's it was referring too!

It's also useful at this stage to start noticing how the 'I' is created. It's usually through two or more senses combined. For example: sensations in the chest, with an image, a voice, and the thought 'I'm here'.

This seems exactly right. Sometimes it's voice/thought and sensation and sometime image/thought and sensation. It's obvious that things still get done even without it. I'll keep looking into it.


Thanks, I'll play around with everything you've suggested and report back and thanks for suggesting I do some deep looking with the frustration, that's a great idea.

[Bluejay]

Excellent. Enjoy :)

[okjose]

Hi Henry,

I thought I should write this while it seems clear. But I think I'm starting to see that I've been adding or inserting a "me" into the mix of everything. I was sat looking at some clothes drying on the clothes rack and I was wondering what am I missing. Then I was thinking about the phrase non-duality and wondering what does it mean what am I not getting and as I was looking I could see I was assuming there was something looking. So it's not what am I missing here its what am I adding.

I feel like I'm halfway between understanding and already it's kind of faded or not seen so clearly. What I feel sure about is that I've been inserting a me.

With the doer questions, things are just done, The body has an urge or "I" have an urge to do something and it happens. I kept inserting a me. Maybe even multiple me's at times.

"I" is thin air!

The non separation feeling or seeing feels like it's going or like I'm loosing it or going to loose it.

1. Can you see a self making you leave the bed? Where does the "decision", the "command" to get up come from? What makes the body get up? Does a ‘you’ or a thought command the body?

There's just the getting up, the urge and getting up.

Again, separate the senses. Are sensations commanding the body? Are thoughts? Can images decide?

No neither can do that. Theres just the urge and doing.

2. Can you choose to fall asleep? Can you find the moment / point / spot or realm where you choose to fall asleep?

This one's easy, definitely not it just happens when it happens.


I originally wrote this before coming on here as I was seeing this more clearly:
"I think I’m starting to get why its called non-duality. There is no I and something. Theres just something. It’s not what am I missing it what am I adding. I’ve been assuming there is a "me" and... Or a thing and me. Theres just one. I keep adding or inserting a “me” into the mix. Theres just what is. No other just one landscape.
If I'm looking at a t-shirt, theres no me looking at a t-shirt theres just looking at t-shirt."

Sorry to throw all this at you in such an incoherent way but I'm glad I got it written down while it was clear.. I don't actually know if I've lost it and probably the trying to hold onto the seeing of non-separation is making it go away. Anyway I'm glad this happened and I'm going to chill and relax and see what's what in the morning.

[Bluejay]

Then I was thinking about the phrase non-duality and wondering what does it mean what am I not getting and as I was looking I could see I was assuming there was something looking. So it's not what am I missing here its what am I adding.

Yup, exactly.

That's why it's an illusion. It's a layer on top of reality that isn't needed.

A Buddhist quote comes to mind:

Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.

Now when it comes to understanding...

I feel like I'm halfway between understanding and already it's kind of faded or not seen so clearly. What I feel sure about is that I've been inserting a me.

You don't even have to think about getting it or not. That's more thought stuff. See that this whole process happens by itself, just like falling asleep, or perhaps in this case, waking up.

We keep looking until something clicks, or maybe it never clicks. Who knows.

"I" is thin air!

Yes. How does it feel to see this?

Sorry to throw all this at you in such an incoherent way but I'm glad I got it written down while it was clear.. I don't actually know if I've lost it and probably the trying to hold onto the seeing of non-separation is making it go away. Anyway I'm glad this happened and I'm going to chill and relax and see what's what in the morning.

Don't worry about it. Just share in whatever way happens :)

When you start feeling like you've lost it, or that it's going away, look at what is worried about this? Where is the worrier? How is it even possible to control this?

And if it's not possible to control this, then why constantly evaluate what's happening?

Do you notice that there's a subtle sense of trying to control?

[okjose]

A Buddhist quote comes to mind:
Thus you should see that
indeed there is no thing here;
this, Bahiya, is how you should train yourself.
Since, Bahiya, there is for you
in the seen, only the seen,
in the heard, only the heard,
in the sensed, only the sensed,
in the cognized, only the cognized,
and you see that there is no thing here,
you will therefore see that
indeed there is no thing there.
As you see that there is no thing there,
you will see that
you are therefore located neither in the world of this,
nor in the world of that,
nor in any place
betwixt the two.
This alone is the end of suffering.

This describes it beautifully and is beyond apt! Thanks for sharing this. I remember trying to word it and it was too simple to describe and so it made sense why it's described with a negative as in non-duality because any positive description is too complicated. I'm not seeing this now but that I remember.

You don't even have to think about getting it or not. That's more thought stuff. See that this whole process happens by itself, just like falling asleep, or perhaps in this case, waking up.

Yes this makes sense. It feels like yesterday was a bit of a glimpse but it's like it only happens in direct experience and in not being a thinker just looking and relaxing and seeing what's here.

"I" is thin air!
Yes. How does it feel to see this?

Right now the sense of "I" is back again but I know now that this sense points to nothing. It was just such a strong assumption that I believed something was here looking. It feels good to admit even though I'm wobbling and feel like I'm back in the realm of thought (if that makes any sense?). It like I'm still looking at "I" out of habbit. But I guess the "I" has lost a lot of it's foundations.

Sorry to throw all this at you in such an incoherent way but I'm glad I got it written down while it was clear.. I don't actually know if I've lost it and probably the trying to hold onto the seeing of non-separation is making it go away. Anyway I'm glad this happened and I'm going to chill and relax and see what's what in the morning.
Don't worry about it. Just share in whatever way happens :)

Thank you :)

When you start feeling like you've lost it, or that it's going away, look at what is worried about this? Where is the worrier? How is it even possible to control this?

Yes I guess there isn't a worrier. It all thought stuff and imagination. It feels like I'm in thought more than DE right now if that makes any sense.

And if it's not possible to control this, then why constantly evaluate what's happening?

Yes I think it's better to just let go. A bit like how you've compared it to falling asleep.

Do you notice that there's a subtle sense of trying to control?

Yes definitely there is, it's such a habit. Like a grasping and trying to think of the next best move. It feels good to see this though. I think I can relax a bit more now and put less effort into thinking about it all but I also want to keep looking and staying in DE. It feel like I know the direction to look in now or how to look but I'm not sure if that's just trying to grasp at something or recreate what happened yesterday.

[Bluejay]

Yes I guess there isn't a worrier. It all thought stuff and imagination. It feels like I'm in thought more than DE right now if that makes any sense.

Absolutely. Makes complete sense. The key is to keep looking each time the "I" monster makes an appearance. Where is it?

Show thyself, beast!

:-)

Yes definitely there is, it's such a habit. Like a grasping and trying to think of the next best move. It feels good to see this though. I think I can relax a bit more now and put less effort into thinking about it all but I also want to keep looking and staying in DE. It feel like I know the direction to look in now or how to look but I'm not sure if that's just trying to grasp at something or recreate what happened yesterday.

You can acknowledge it when it comes up. Just notice it and let it be. Sometimes you get caught up in it, and sometimes you don't. It's an autonomous process. Like digestion or blood pumping through the veins. There's no one doing this. It's life life'ing.

So keep looking and eventually, usually, often the penny drops. And it doesn't need to drop intellectually, but experientally. When it happens, it cannot be denied.

In the meantime, let's enjoy another exercise.

And notice that the exercises now may seem very obvious. This in and of itself is a sign that something has shifted and is shifting.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

Let me know what is seen.

Do you see how this relates to you evaluating if 'you're' getting it or not?

[okjose]

Absolutely. Makes complete sense. The key is to keep looking each time the "I" monster makes an appearance. Where is it?

Show thyself, beast!

:-)

Haha, yes. It makes sense to keep looking at it when it's here, don't let it hide.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’. But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like ‘good’ and ‘bad’ are inherent characteristics of ‘things’. But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word label ‘GREEN' , what is the actual experience?

What is actually experienced is the shape of the letters and the colour red.

Is the color red ‘experienced’, or is the color green ‘experienced’ as the label suggests?

The colour red is experienced. The colour green is thought of.

Does the label ‘GREEN’ have a one-to-one correspondence with ‘reality’? Or does the label suggest something else other than what is here now (red colour)?

No, the label doesn't correspond with reality. It suggests something else.

Is 'green' associated in any way with the experience of the colour red; or is green just a label that overlays the actual experience of red?

'green' overlays the actual experience of red.

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’ , is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No the redness is not affected by those labels.

Does redness become ‘good’ or ‘bad’, or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

The labels have no effect whatsoever on reality

Let me know what is seen.

Do you see how this relates to you evaluating if 'you're' getting it or not?

Yes I think so. There's the seeing of it and then there's the thinking of it. The overlay of thought and then what's actually seen. The reality and the imagined. There's the experience (what's seen) and then theres the thoughts about it. It like there's the actual reality of what's here and then the pull of thought or imagination.

It like there's nothing to get because getting it would be thought. It's so simple yet so powerful and my mind is racing a bit and the more I think about this the more power the mind gets or the more thought wins over reality.

There's noting to get (that's thought) theres just whats given (what's here).

I'm somehow grappling. How could such a simple easy exercise reveal so much haha

[Bluejay]

What is actually experienced is the shape of the letters and the colour red.

Is shape direct experience or a thought?

Yes I think so. There's the seeing of it and then there's the thinking of it. The overlay of thought and then what's actually seen. The reality and the imagined. There's the experience (what's seen) and then theres the thoughts about it. It like there's the actual reality of what's here and then the pull of thought or imagination.

It like there's nothing to get because getting it would be thought. It's so simple yet so powerful and my mind is racing a bit and the more I think about this the more power the mind gets or the more thought wins over reality.

There's noting to get (that's thought) theres just whats given (what's here).

I'm somehow grappling. How could such a simple easy exercise reveal so much haha

Good that grappling is happening.

Rest in the grappling, see what's beyond it, around it :)