Continuing a journey of awakening and dropping resistance

[poppyseed]

Hi Shreyash

Is this a ‘self-improvement” exercise/story?

Haha absolutely. That is the persistent underlying story happening here.

Just noticing that is enough – that stories are patterns of thinking, empty of essence. Let all the stuff that no longer serves be seen for what it is (empty story), get deconstructed, uncreated, released, dissolved, melted away, and gone. Who/what needs those fear-full patterns, right? Whatever happens in the process of releasing is okay.
If fear comes up, it’s only here to show you that there are unexplored areas, that something is protected and does not want to be seen.

Right. Thought that "I am not a Buddha yet" does not change what the nature of things is.

Yup, exactly like your thought “I’m not ready yet for the final questions” – empty story. You were a Buddha to start with, just thoughts say otherwise :)

That makes sense too. I have heard of the process being referred to as 'cleaning up the mind' and yet there is a tendency to create an identity around the cleaner. And maybe the cleaner of that cleaner.

Exactly! The question is always what identifies with the story no matter what it is – non-dual story or dual. The story changes (thinking self-organises around DE) but it is still an empty story :). Reality cannot be grasped with thought but it can be experienced directly. Telling someone that has never eaten chocolate what the experience is cannot come even close to the real experience. Same with imagining the taste of chocolate vs eating it. Reality is truly indescribable but experienceable. Staying with being and seeing the emptiness of the story is a way of letting go of it, or just using it as a tool in communication.

Are you referring to the Liberation Unleashed book? I have not read it, though I do intend to start on it.

If I understand it correctly, the method is about turning inwards and asking myself or my mind if it is at peace in the present moment, correct? And openly receiving the answer without judgement. Do we stick with this one question for now or go where the mind takes us in further questioning?

She has a chapter on this in the book “Liberation Unleashed”, called “Deep Looking”, where she describes the process in detail. You can also watch videos on YouTube where she does sessions with people like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmGAbvKQ45A&t=58s

Please let me know if you need more help with this. Maybe you can even contact her for a session.
Also, did you watch the video that Ilona and Luchana made with regards of expectations. I highly suggest you watch it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93fpiOnKM4M&t=1s

Looking forward to your reply ;)
Love
Rali

[Jetstream]

Hi Rali,

Just noticing that is enough – that stories are patterns of thinking, empty of essence. Let all the stuff that no longer serves be seen for what it is (empty story), get deconstructed, uncreated, released, dissolved, melted away, and gone. Who/what needs those fear-full patterns, right? Whatever happens in the process of releasing is okay.

Yes. As you've mentioned, there is so much thought and organization around the self-improvement story because it has been reinforced with some sense of lack or incompleteness, either directly or indirectly, an endless number of times throughout the years. Letting go entirely of any story & thinking altogether seems the only way to go about it, in case one gets caught up in stories about the stories :)

Telling someone that has never eaten chocolate what the experience is cannot come even close to the real experience. Same with imagining the taste of chocolate vs eating it. Reality is truly indescribable but experienceable. Staying with being and seeing the emptiness of the story is a way of letting go of it, or just using it as a tool in communication.

Yes makes sense. Simply experiencing reality more is what is needed.

She has a chapter on this in the book “Liberation Unleashed”, called “Deep Looking”, where she describes the process in detail. You can also watch videos on YouTube where she does sessions with people like this one:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SmGAbvKQ45A&t=58s

Please let me know if you need more help with this. Maybe you can even contact her for a session.
Also, did you watch the video that Ilona and Luchana made with regards of expectations. I highly suggest you watch it:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93fpiOnKM4M&t=1s

I will check out both the chapter in the book and this video by tomorrow and get back to you if there are any questions or comments.

Love,
Shreyash

[poppyseed]

Hi Shreyash

Yes. As you've mentioned, there is so much thought and organization around the self-improvement story because it has been reinforced with some sense of lack or incompleteness, either directly or indirectly, an endless number of times throughout the years.

How is this “sense of lack or incompleteness” experienced "directly" (indirectly is obviously thought)? In what area does it show up the most? Where is the biggest lack felt? How is it felt? You don’t need to do anything but notice and acknowledge. Watch what happens, and notice how it feels. Feel the gap between wanting and not having, and observe what sensations are triggered when wanting/lacking appears. Bringing attention to the mechanism of wanting/lacking will reveal curious things.

I will check out both the chapter in the book and this video by tomorrow and get back to you if there are any questions or comments.

Looking forward to your comments/questions!
Love
Rali

[Jetstream]

Hi Rali,

How is this “sense of lack or incompleteness” experienced "directly" (indirectly is obviously thought)? In what area does it show up the most? Where is the biggest lack felt? How is it felt?

Directly, it is felt often in the chest or heart region as a painful tightness or contraction. There isn't a clear boundary to it and it spreads outwards lightly but it is primarily concentrated at the chest/heart.

You don’t need to do anything but notice and acknowledge. Watch what happens, and notice how it feels. Feel the gap between wanting and not having, and observe what sensations are triggered when wanting/lacking appears. Bringing attention to the mechanism of wanting/lacking will reveal curious things.

Right. Would you say it is appropriate to describe it as "do not look for something, simply look"? Because when this heavier pain is looked at there is a tendency to want to do the looking in order to change it or get rid of it, because we perceive it as heavy or persistent. But with more awareness on our tendency to do that, I am finding it easier to simply look and also allow that looking to stop if the sensation goes (earlier there used to be a tension that would want to keep looking and keep engaging with surrounding thought until there was some satisfactory story or conclusion that led to a palpable physical release), or to allow the looking to not necessarily have any 'results' or insights. Simply witnessing, as you put it.

Looking forward to your comments/questions!

I read the chapter on Deep Looking in the book and I definitely understand the technique now. I will continue applying it throughout the day and as and when the need arises, thank you for pointing out that chapter in the book.

I also watched the video you sent me by Ilona and Luchana on expectations and they did touch on a couple of the topics that we had also discussed, primarily the self-improvement story and the external validation story.
Having done deep looking once or twice today in those areas I can see how the technique can help open up space around the persistent storylines to be seen through. I will also likely give the rest of the book a read as well, and perhaps reach out to Ilona for a session after some time of doing this technique for myself.

For the time being I do not feel anything specific or pressing that I require further help about. I'm sure things may arise, but nothing immediately at this moment. We can proceed with the final questions if there is nothing else you would like to suggest or touch upon.

Love,
Shreyash

[poppyseed]

Hi Shreyash

Directly, it is felt often in the chest or heart region as a painful tightness or contraction. There isn't a clear boundary to it and it spreads outwards lightly but it is primarily concentrated at the chest/heart.

Divested of the story that is attached to that sensation labelled ‘painful tightness or contraction', what is the sensation itself?

Explore the sensation. Notice it, observe what it does. It’s like the sensation is continually changing. It moves around, it becomes more intense, it becomes less intense, "spreads outwards lightly"; always changing its shape. But is it really changing if it’s always now? Change takes time and memory to compare current state to previous, and we know ‘time’ and ‘memory’ are both thought content. Is the sensation separate from what is seen at the moment? Only when "something" is isolated, there can be a story about it.

Go deeply into that sensation (i.e. the vibration)
You say “it spreads outwards lightly but it is primarily concentrated at the chest/heart”. You mean sensations labelled “chest” and “heart”, right? Are there two sensations (e.g. ‘heart’ and “chest”) or one “heart_chest”? When you say “concentrated at” you are referring to location. That means you are referring to thought. Does the sensation really have a location? Can it really spread – where? In space? Do you see how all of this labelling is taken for real? I get it we need these labels to communicate about the sensation, but check how much is for communication and how much is believed to be real.

When you say it is “persistent”, you referring to time. That means you are referring to thought. Refer to the sensation.
How long has this current sensation been present?
Just now. Right? Is it always the exactly the same sensation? How is this known directly? Do you see the story?

Is it really unpleasant (e.g. painful)? Is the actual sensation itself unpleasant, or is unpleasantness added by thought? Is there an inherent unpleasantness in the actual sensation?

Just leave your thoughts in the background, turn the volume down and refer directly to the sensation.
If you don’t think about it, do you know that this sensation is something called ‘painful tightness or contraction’?
Is there any inherent contraction in the sensation itself?

Go to the sensation at the soles of the feet. Would you label that sensation ‘painful tightness or contraction”? Or is it just a neutral, undefined tingling sensation?

Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘painful tightness or contraction’)…what is the difference between them?

A little bit more "intense", but apart from that – any difference?
Report back on what you found when doing this exercise.

Would you say it is appropriate to describe it as "do not look for something, simply look"?

Of course I mean to simply look. There is no treasure to be found, but just observe what is actually here and in this way see the beliefs/descriptions which are not true. Just a fresh look with old labelling stripped off.

For the time being I do not feel anything specific or pressing that I require further help about. I'm sure things may arise, but nothing immediately at this moment. We can proceed with the final questions if there is nothing else you would like to suggest or touch upon.

Please play with these questions first and report and we’ll take it from there
Love
Rali

[Jetstream]

Hi Rali,

Divested of the story that is attached to that sensation labelled ‘painful tightness or contraction', what is the sensation itself?

Nothing specifically. Without the labels, it simply is.

But is it really changing if it’s always now? Change takes time and memory to compare current state to previous, and we know ‘time’ and ‘memory’ are both thought content. Is the sensation separate from what is seen at the moment?

I've had this question myself with this exercise, or with any exercise that involves noticing change over time. If something is to be truly observed without traditional thought structures, then involving the idea of "change over time" presupposes the creation of time. There is nothing but what is seen in the moment. It can be "challenging" so to speak in a given moment to dispose of all the constructions and ideas and see something for what it is, especially when the stories of either the sensation itself or the 'process' of observation around the sensation are strong. But there's more of that just happening on its own automatically rather than me actively trying to do it recently.

You mean sensations labelled “chest” and “heart”, right?

Yes.

Are there two sensations (e.g. ‘heart’ and “chest”) or one “heart_chest”?

For convenience there is thought that is breaking up sensation into parts but in experience it is one sensation or experience.

Does the sensation really have a location? Can it really spread – where? In space? Do you see how all of this labelling is taken for real? I get it we need these labels to communicate about the sensation, but check how much is for communication and how much is believed to be real.

No location really. Besides the instantaneous thought label that is happening of the location, when observed closer, the distinction falls away.

How long has this current sensation been present? Just now. Right?

True. Being constantly in change, any given sensation is independent at any given moment. There is story that comes up when the sensation might come up on another day or another time that it is the same sensation or same story when actually the sensation itself that comes up is independent of anything else outside of thought connecting them. To really see this, when the sensation arises again strongly I will ask myself to look and find what connection it has to the story of it I am creating or resisting. Because that is really what is taken for granted - when these sensations arise they are instantly put in context of them being part of a story that needs to be fixed or resolved, when it being made a 'thing' is what needs to be looked at itself.

The deep looking technique does involve creating these ideas of location, past and present, or certain storylines in order to help overcome or release them. There is a balance between knowing it is a technique and not reality, vs. the technique potentially reinforcing or perpetuating thoughts and labels being made to sensations. That being said, the labelling process happens so rampantly in day to day life that utilizing it for the technique is certainly doing more "good" than "harm".

Is it really unpleasant (e.g. painful)? Is the actual sensation itself unpleasant, or is unpleasantness added by thought? Is there an inherent unpleasantness in the actual sensation?

No, there is no inherent unpleasantness. I have noticed this with extreme physical pain also, where if it not seen or labelled as bad, then there are brief moments (again, using labels of time :) ) that it ceases to be painful. But it is very sticky and tends to see-saw and rebound between engaging in the label and letting go of it.

Now compare the sensation of the soles of the feet – which is just neutral sensation – and the sensation in your chest (labelled ‘painful tightness or contraction’)…what is the difference between them?

Nothing, they don't even have any characteristics without words or labels. Even "intense".

Just leave your thoughts in the background,

These things are seen when the thoughts are left in the background, precisely. The remaining tension in our process is connected to the thought that says "sure it is seen when thoughts are left in the background, but thoughts are in the foreground and being taken for granted 95% of the time". This thought is coming from expectation or desire of "more" "seeing" and more "awareness" otherwise, which constructed on the thought of a me that needs improvement.
This is also known, but there is physical tension and thoughts around this nonetheless.

Love,
Shreyash

[poppyseed]

Hi Shreyash

But there's more of that just happening on its own automatically rather than me actively trying to do it recently.

If you have to be pedantic about this sentence, is there really automatic vs active “doing”? Or the difference is how thought describes/labels the experience? Is there any other “mode” than automatic/self-organising?

This thought is coming from expectation or desire of "more" "seeing" and more "awareness" otherwise, which constructed on the thought of a me that needs improvement.

Yup! And this is how the enlightenment/seeking story perpetuates itself, but at the end it is just a story. “Seeing” happens, “not seeing” also happens, and none of it is in your control, right? Similarly with “being aware of the story or not”…

Is there anything else that you want to explore together, or should we proceed with the final questions?
Love
Rali

[Jetstream]

Hi Rali,

If you have to be pedantic about this sentence, is there really automatic vs active “doing”? Or the difference is how thought describes/labels the experience? Is there any other “mode” than automatic/self-organising?

True it's mostly a matter of thought and how I'm seeing the action. If there is less self-related thought content around the action, then there comes an additional thought that "this is happening on its own". If there is more self-related content or ownership thoughts then there is an evaluation thought that says "it is 'active' doing". Both are nonetheless happening automatically.

Yup! And this is how the enlightenment/seeking story perpetuates itself, but at the end it is just a story. “Seeing” happens, “not seeing” also happens, and none of it is in your control, right?

Yes.

Is there anything else that you want to explore together, or should we proceed with the final questions?

Nothing at the moment. Whatever 'resistance' I had described to answering the final questions earlier is less so, gauging purely based on intensity of sensation or nature of thought. I wouldn't say its gone, but the desire for it to be gone is recognized as coming from the same self or expectation story. We can continue with the questions.

Love,
Shreyash

[poppyseed]

Hi Shreyash

Nothing at the moment. Whatever 'resistance' I had described to answering the final questions earlier is less so, gauging purely based on intensity of sensation or nature of thought. I wouldn't say its gone, but the desire for it to be gone is recognized as coming from the same self or expectation story. We can continue with the questions.

Very good! Don’t forget that there is nothing “final” about answering the final questions. The “journey” of seeing all conditioning in all its “glory” begins. It also doesn’t mean that it is the end of our conversation. I’m always around if you need someone to look with you.

Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready. Please answer what's true for you rather than any sort of 'ideal' answer
1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Love
Rali

[Jetstream]

Hi Rali,

I am once again traveling and will get back to these questions after the weekend.

Love,
Shreyash

[poppyseed]

Hi Shreyash

Just a nudge for the final answers :)
Love
Rali

[Jetstream]

Hi Rali,

Apologies for the time taken to get back to you on these. I do feel however that my understanding or conviction of my answers to these questions has deepened in that time, so thank you for waiting.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there isn't. There is thought content about such an entity but nowhere to be found in actuality. It was never there either.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

The illusion of separate self consists of a network of thoughts built upon certain fundamental concepts. As one grows up, there are certain ideas that one takes for granted like 'body', 'self/other', 'time', etc. Basic concepts we use for communication and survival. Once these illusions have been established and believed to be true, we can construct storylines on top of this related to a 'self' and its needs - for fulfilment, for pleasure, avoiding pain, avoiding suffering. There is a story of an experiencer that is taken for granted and increasingly complex trains of thought unfold around this.
We do not halt this process, and so thoughts arise spontaneously connected to previous thought content and our perception of self becomes more complex.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

When it was first seen, it was like a relief, an exhalation of sorts. After seeing this once, the idea was overtaken by more thought once again in an attempt to see it 'clearer', or apply it 'better'. But even having seen it once began to affect how much suffering in day to day life was experienced. Knowing that all was constructed artificially made certain things non-stick, easily dropped upon seeing their baselessness. The process is automatic - when strong emotions or thoughts arise then the no-self or emptiness of it observed. Sometimes the behavior changes as a result, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes it is seen spontaneously in the day at random moments. Regardless - the feeling of 'struggle' or fighting with one's self has reduced quite a bit. There is greater ease with whatever is unfolding and a greater willingness to be with anything uncomfortable.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

As part of our discussion I can pinpoint a handful of moments that really made the looking happen. One was the first time that I considered that the 'me' wasn't actually there - we repeatedly looked for it in our dialogue and I would see various thought and sensation surrounding 'I', but not 'I' itself, and the willingness to realize that looking was futile and it wasn't there was brought about by one of our conversations.
Further, when 'body', 'body moving through space' and decision making were discussed, any remaining burning questions on the lack of I were eased up.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Making decisions is a process that occurs on the basis of thought content. Actions can happen without thought as well but in those, there is no 'decision' - only unfolding automatically. To make decisions, thoughts arise and give rise to other thoughts that eventually result in some action or non-action. This process itself contains thoughts of an 'I' and previous storylines of 'I' that creates the idea that 'I' have conducted the thought and action. For example, the decision to sit down and write these answers today exists in thought as a 'decision' that was made by 'me' on a surface level. On observing the phenomena that actually took place, it was spontaneous thoughts one after another and spontaneous reactions to the surrounding situations that made the event itself happen.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Having the 'intention' to do something means to have thoughts that say "i" will do this "thing". For example, I have the intention to go the gym today evening. Intention arises because of some desire. In this example specifically, it is the desire to get in physical shape before a difficult hike at the end of this month. So this intention was created from a thought that 'my body' was going to undertake some task in the future that may result in pain so there is a desire to avoid that pain 'for me' - and thus there are thoughts now that are suggesting that I go to the gym. In essence, the intention (i.e. thought) arose automatically as a result of previous thoughts about body and pain and time that arose automatically.
So intention is a thought response to what is happening already.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Generally we define free will as our ability to make our own decisions but having seen that even the decisions we think we make aren't made by 'us' rather they are made on their own - there is no difference. Lack of free will is thought to be when something external or not-you is making decisions for you. But when there is no you vs other, nothing concrete to point to, there is no one to have the will in this situation.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Choice is once again thought oriented around desire vs. aversion - wanting something vs not wanting something else. When we choose the things that we choose, the decisions are informed by thought and sensation. Sensations have occurred in the past surrounding certain topics, people, places, etc. and the thought mechanism has linked them to a 'me' or persistent body and decision-maker.
So when there comes time to make any choices, there arise thoughts trying to 'optimize' that choice in favor of the me that has been and had always been being created.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

Control is considered to be the ability to make something do what you want it to. So in practice what this looks like is that there is thought about a thing (an action) and the occurrence of that action and then a thought that links the two to an external entity ("I") that 'controlled' the process. Without the third aspect, there is no concept of control. There is no ability to say whether the thought caused the action or not, there is no link that is seen. The things simply happened the way they did.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Nothing and everything, at the same time. I am responsible for nothing because whatever happens is happening without a 'me' really doing it. At the same time, everything that has been a part of my relative experience till now has been 'my' construction, my fabrication.

I realize I have not given examples from experience in many of the answers - because they felt like more of the same underlying idea. However if you would like me to take the time and do so I am happy to elaborate on that or anything else that may need answering after these responses.

Love,
Shreyash

[poppyseed]

Hi Shreyash
Thank you for your beautiful answers! I'll invite other guides now to take a look through your thread . They may or may not have questions for you . This process can take a few days but do check in to see if there's any feedback.

Love
Rali

[poppyseed]

Hi Shreyash
Welcome home!

Thank you for your beautiful answers! It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you through the gateless gate! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy.

You will receive an email notifying you of a PM from the forum, inviting you to join LU's Facebook groups. It also has other information that might be of interest to you. I will inbox you my contact details if you want to stay in touch. If you have any questions, just ask, or you can drop a line on your thread here and I will respond.

Your username will change from green to blue which indicates that you have had the realisation of no separate self. This thread will be moved to the ‘Archive’ section of the forum, but you will be able to access it.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

I also think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

Also, if you want further exploring, I'd suggest these teleconferences:
There are 3 meetings & a set of 5 videos you're invited to attend:
Thursday Meetings.
Hi Guys,
we are Luchana & Lubo, guides at LU.
Here is an invitation for you:
Join us each Thursday, 6 pm CET, UTC+1
and let's explore together what is already here.
Let's enjoy together this beauty called Life
MEETINGS ARE ON ZOOM and LIVE on YouTube.
To participate in the meetings, send a request to luchanauzunova@gmail.com
You will receive an e-mail confirming your participation and a link to join.
Looking forward to seeing YOU!
Luchana & Lubo
__________________________________________________
Meet up with Vince (For LU seekers & guides)
Monday August 14
Sydney (EST) Australia. 6 am right now
Every 2 weeks after that.
https://us02web.zoom.us/j/86991485768?p ... 12Um5DQT09
Meeting ID: 869 9148 5768
Passcode: 083035
Let him know if you want email reminders.
vinceschubert@gmail.com
__________________________________________________
Ilona's Meetings
Next group meeting on Zoom is on the 4th of September. (There was one October 9. Not sure when next one is. )
To register send Ilona an email to
admin@ilonaciunaite.com
Looking forward 🙂
__________________________________________________
(videos)
Hi everyone.
Starting on 15th of October for 5 weeks I will post a new video of guiding sessions we had with Jim.
Here is a link to the first one.
https://youtu.be/gb6FwZ6PlI4
Liberation Unleashed Direct Pointing - The Gateless Gate
Ilona
Write to them for the next meeting. Ilona’s is April 9th.
For Fetters:
Todd has teleconference group that meets - I think every 2 weeks.
There is also www.findingawakening.com but Christine has a waiting list.
And Kevin Shinilac has https://www.simplytheseen.com/ but I don't think he is guiding any more, although there are instructions on his site.

Love
Rali

[Jetstream]

Hi Rali,

Thank you for your beautiful answers! It has been such a pleasure to walk beside you through the gateless gate! Your openness and willingness to look were simply awesome and made guiding you a joy.

And thank you so much for your wonderful guidance :) The value of what you have done for me with your patience and keenness to guide is something that cannot adequately be put into words. It is something I will eternally be grateful for.

I have sent a message to be a part of the facebook group, and I will go through the abundances of resources you have provided.

Please don’t forget that this is just the beginning of exploring. It’s the beginning of cleaning up of all sorts of old beliefs. Emotions and feelings can show up to be seen and felt, so don’t stop looking! Please feel free to contact me, so we can have a look together, if you like.

Sure thing! I have added you on Facebook as well.

I also think that you would make a wonderful guide, if you’re willing to explore it, when you feel ready. It can be very rewarding and it help you deepen your understanding.

I appreciate the vote of confidence. I think it will take some time for my understanding to deepen and until guiding someone else feels right for me but I will certainly keep the intention in mind.

Once again, thank you so much for the process and I hope many more seekers can benefit from your wonderful guidance :)

Love,
Shreyash