Seeking help getting to the exit door

[Darrell]

Hey,

Just a quick check in. I haven't forgotten. I actually spent some time on your questions while waiting in the hospital. My wife got out, and two days later I came down with a brutal respiratory infection, which I'm only now just barely beginning to get over.

More in the coming week.

Regards,

Darrell

[Bluejay]

Understood. Get better! 👍

[Darrell]

Understood. Get better! 👍

Thanks! Finally back on my feet, even if a bit slow still. That was quite a ride. Wife gets out of the hospital after almost five days, then I get sick for just under three weeks, then my daughter catches a killer stomach virus. Fun for the whole family.

I'm transcribing what I wrote while waiting during that last day at the hospital, so there are a few things I'm not sure why I wrote them. Nothing of great substance, but will include asides if needed.

Here we go...

I imagine there are times during the day when there is no doubt and it's clear that there is no inherent self, right?

Yes, typically when I don't think about it (That's not quite right. I can notice with intention and see there's an absence of self in that moment)

What is going on during those times internally in terms of thoughts, identification with anything, beliefs, emotions, and so on? We're just exploring so feel free to share anything that seems relevant.

What I wrote was "Unsure, I think it varies" but that must have been the lack of sleep. Sitting here now, I'd have to say that there might be thought, but it's just thought. Often seemingly intentional thought, such as "There's no one here" Identification with beliefs, thoughts, feelings and such can vary. Sometimes it seems to be absent entirely, other times, it might be there to a lesser extent than usual. But I think that it typically starts off with identification being dramatically reduced, to none at all, until the absence of self is consciously noticed and noted. Then thought comes in, along with identification. I would say since whatever it was that happened around the first fetter last July occurred, that what I refer to as 'the subtle ownership of experience' is often gone or noticeably reduced. But it, and the sense of self that goes with it can come back if I'm feeling strong negative emotions or feelings. I'd qualify that with saying that even thought there's a strong sense of self, it does seem to be lacking something more hardened, full or complete that once was there. I don't know if that went away last July or sometime before. Nor can I put a finger on what it actually is that is different.

And when there is doubt, what is happening then, and how is that different from the above?

This also varies I expect. What can be recalled is that it sometimes follows a a thought about not being at some point of progress that is wanted or believed I should be at. Sometimes it's the ordinariness of life, not experiencing the freedom from suffering (greed, aversion and delusion) that I have known in times past. The difference is, at least partly, that there's not the sense of ease, there's contraction, resistance to what is (perceived what is) how I think things should be or want them to be. Clinging to how I want things to be or hope they will. Responding as of Jan 3rd, I can't say how it's different when there is doubt, and when there isn't. Re-reading this, it all is focused on when there is doubt and identification. The difference between those two different types of experience? When there isn't doubt, identification, etc it seems that it is simply that those things aren't there. The thoughts that give rise to them aren't happening, whether it is an absence of all thought, or just those thoughts. Sometimes, there seems to be this sense of knowing, a sort of quiet confidence that makes it so those thoughts and feelings can't gain a foothold. I have no idea how that happens, and am unsure about even recalling this correctly. That's how it seems looking back at those times.

Do you also notice the doubt being a distraction from feeling something, such as a lack of worth, sadness, hopelessness, anger, despair, etc?

Not sure about it being a distraction, but it does seem to be a reaction/response to the the desire to be free from suffering, aversion, desire/craving. As of 1/3/24 I'd add that I would need to really investigate that carefully when doubt appears. I'd also add that I suspect doubt is protecting something, I'm just not sure what. I have had times where there is fear at the thought or idea of achieving lasting or persistent freedom from the sense of self and all that comes with that. This seems odd, as that experience has always been one of a happiness that is beyond what people typically think of as happiness, it has always been an experience of profound peace and ease. What's there to be afraid of!?

If the first fetter would be seen through, what would it mean?

The beginning of true freedom. less self centeredness, less defensiveness or need to blame. The ability to just go with the flow and allow things to be as they are, less resistance to what's happening or how things are. Seeing that there isn't a doer, that there isn't the illusion of control, and letting go of trying to control.

Is there something you would have to face that you would rather not?

I'm unsure, but if there is, I would like to know it.

What is the doubt protecting you from?

I've been considering this question, and I don't know. I've wondered if it is protecting whatever it is that has been fearful of being freed from the burden of false self and all that goes with it. I should mention that this experience of feeling fear at the thought of real, lasting freedom is very rare. It has only happened just a few times, and it has been a long time since that has happened. More than anything, there's just a profound desire to be free


Where is the safety in doubting this, in staying with thoughts?

I suppose staying with the thoughts is familiar. It's a whole world that is known, and believed to be comfortable, in spite of all evidence to the contrary.

Was thinking used like this for safety in earlier parts of life? For almost everyone this was the case in one form or another.
Sure. It created a sense of self that believed itself to be superior to many others, of being unique or special. These were, I believe, all compensations for a negative sense of self that has been present since childhood. There were times when thought worlds were a place to retreat to or get lost in. Or they were a distraction at least. Probably more distraction from what was, than anything else. It's funny to consider the word "used" because it was never intentional, but then nothing is.

[Bluejay]

Thanks! Finally back on my feet, even if a bit slow still. That was quite a ride. Wife gets out of the hospital after almost five days, then I get sick for just under three weeks, then my daughter catches a killer stomach virus. Fun for the whole family.

Yes. That's quite a streak!

Happy to hear everyone is doing better.

But it, and the sense of self that goes with it can come back if I'm feeling strong negative emotions or feelings. I'd qualify that with saying that even thought there's a strong sense of self, it does seem to be lacking something more hardened, full or complete that once was there. I don't know if that went away last July or sometime before. Nor can I put a finger on what it actually is that is different.

As you may already know, there can still feel like there is a suffering center after the first fetter, such as in fetters 4/5, especially if intense emotions are coming up.

When you say there's a strong sense of self, let's explore it (pointer at the end of post).

This also varies I expect. What can be recalled is that it sometimes follows a a thought about not being at some point of progress that is wanted or believed I should be at. Sometimes it's the ordinariness of life, not experiencing the freedom from suffering (greed, aversion and delusion) that I have known in times past. The difference is, at least partly, that there's not the sense of ease, there's contraction, resistance to what is (perceived what is) how I think things should be or want them to be. Clinging to how I want things to be or hope they will.

I could be wrong, but what it sounds to me when you say 'ordinariness of life' is that there's a feeling in the body, and that springboards into identifying what's wrong 'out there' so you don't have to feel.

The expectation of feeling good can be very strong even though we know we can't feel good all the time, so even seeing that there is no inherent self, there can be an insistence of 'But this is not what I want.'

The difference between those two different types of experience? When there isn't doubt, identification, etc it seems that it is simply that those things aren't there. The thoughts that give rise to them aren't happening, whether it is an absence of all thought, or just those thoughts. Sometimes, there seems to be this sense of knowing, a sort of quiet confidence that makes it so those thoughts and feelings can't gain a foothold. I have no idea how that happens, and am unsure about even recalling this correctly. That's how it seems looking back at those times.

Do you equate seeing through the first fetter with feeling or being a certain way, like a quiet confidence?

Not sure about it being a distraction, but it does seem to be a reaction/response to the the desire to be free from suffering, aversion, desire/craving. As of 1/3/24 I'd add that I would need to really investigate that carefully when doubt appears. I'd also add that I suspect doubt is protecting something, I'm just not sure what. I have had times where there is fear at the thought or idea of achieving lasting or persistent freedom from the sense of self and all that comes with that. This seems odd, as that experience has always been one of a happiness that is beyond what people typically think of as happiness, it has always been an experience of profound peace and ease. What's there to be afraid of!?

You may expect profound peace and ease in awakening, but to get there, you often need to face and feel everything you've been avoiding.

So while intellectually it seems strange to resist freedom, but that's not really what is resisted. What's resisted is letting go of what's familiar and comforting.

Letting go of old ways of orienting and being is in many ways taken as dangerous to the body, organism, or whatever you want to call it.

The beginning of true freedom. less self centeredness, less defensiveness or need to blame. The ability to just go with the flow and allow things to be as they are, less resistance to what's happening or how things are. Seeing that there isn't a doer, that there isn't the illusion of control, and letting go of trying to control.

The beginning of true freedom is seeing everything that stands in the way, is it not?

Kind of like: What is the beginning of cleaning the house? Seeing all the dust, dirt, and crap everywhere.

I'm unsure, but if there is, I would like to know it.

You could try this in meditation sitting or lying down.

Simply relaxing, and then silently saying: I am ready to feel what I don't want to feel. I am ready to see what I don't want to see.

If any resistance comes up, notice where it is in the body, and dive into it. Again, letting it expand and do whatever it wants.

More than anything, there's just a profound desire to be free

This is a good doorway into feeling.

Ask yourself: What do I want to be free from?

You mentioned it above, all the suffering. That question will invite in sensations, memories, images. They may seem insignificant at first, but as you begin opening up to them, more will come.

Another way to poke the bear is to say: I'm perfectly happy with the way things are. I don't need to be free from anything.

Sure. It created a sense of self that believed itself to be superior to many others, of being unique or special. These were, I believe, all compensations for a negative sense of self that has been present since childhood. There were times when thought worlds were a place to retreat to or get lost in. Or they were a distraction at least. Probably more distraction from what was, than anything else. It's funny to consider the word "used" because it was never intentional, but then nothing is.

Yes, thoughts and an assumed self was very useful when we were young, especially if things were difficult.

All of these old structures are still functioning. They give you the illusion of safety or whatever it is that is needed. This is also why waking up can be so challenging, because it means we have to face what we avoided when we were young.

With all of that said, here's part 1 of a pointer on beginning to notice the sense of self.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

(Try to keep the answers short (a few sentences or so). That usually helps keep the focus on direct experience).

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes? (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, etc)

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

[Darrell]

Henri,

I'm just going to jump right in and respond to those things which ask for a response -

I could be wrong, but what it sounds to me when you say 'ordinariness of life' is that there's a feeling in the body, and that springboards into identifying what's wrong 'out there' so you don't have to feel.

That's an interesting deduction, I would never have a arrived at that. As close as I can confirm and recognize is that often there are things that happen (many times daily with my daughter is a common one) where there's a feeling of aversion/I don't want this/this isn't how it should be, and instead of looking at and working with that internal reaction, I instead try to deal with the feeling by managing those external things that seem to provoke it. I've heard many say that there's not actually a direct connection or relationship between these external things and the feeling that appears to arise in response to them. I suppose you're correct. I'm not really feeling what's inside as I'm distracted by/with what's happening 'out there' instead.

The expectation of feeling good can be very strong even though we know we can't feel good all the time, so even seeing that there is no inherent self, there can be an insistence of 'But this is not what I want.'

So using the example I gave above, it's not about feeling that someone is doing something that's 'wrong', 'unjust', 'unfair' and so on, but is actually about not wanting to feel those unpleasant feelings that come up inside?

Do you equate seeing through the first fetter with feeling or being a certain way, like a quiet confidence?

I think I equate seeing through the first fetter with relinquishing control, and not trying to micro-manage so much of what goes on around me.

You may expect profound peace and ease in awakening, but to get there, you often need to face and feel everything you've been avoiding.

I'm ready and willing to face whatever I've been avoiding. I've already faced a great deal of unpleasant and painful material, so why not more? Any price to be free.

So while intellectually it seems strange to resist freedom, but that's not really what is resisted. What's resisted is letting go of what's familiar and comforting.

What's familiar for me isn't comforting. Being a parent has been really hard and stressful. I'd love to let go of what's familiar so that what is doesn't have to be such a burden. I make it more difficult than it needs to be.

Letting go of old ways of orienting and being is in many ways taken as dangerous to the body, organism, or whatever you want to call it.

I'm so glad you explained that. Now it makes sense, and hopefully will eliminate some barriers that have stood in the way of being free.

The beginning of true freedom is seeing everything that stands in the way, is it not? Kind of like: What is the beginning of cleaning the house? Seeing all the dust, dirt, and crap everywhere.

Sort of like the 12 step recovery adage about not being able to address a problem until you admit you have one? I suppose so, I'd never thought of it that way, but it makes sense. I've had a fair bit of experience with blind spots, and the hard thing about blind spots is finding them. So How do I find what stands in the way? If you asked me to make a list, I'd undoubtedly leave off things because I wasn't aware of them.

You could try this in meditation sitting or lying down.

Simply relaxing, and then silently saying: I am ready to feel what I don't want to feel. I am ready to see what I don't want to see.

If any resistance comes up, notice where it is in the body, and dive into it. Again, letting it expand and do whatever it wants

.

So this is part of what you're suggesting I do now? That's fine, just want to be clear.

More than anything, there's just a profound desire to be free

This is a good doorway into feeling.

Not sure what you mean by that being a good doorway into feeling.

Ask yourself: What do I want to be free from?

Again, this is something to do when sitting quietly, rather than listing it here?

You mentioned it above, all the suffering. That question will invite in sensations, memories, images. They may seem insignificant at first, but as you begin opening up to them, more will come.

Another way to poke the bear is to say: I'm perfectly happy with the way things are. I don't need to be free from anything.

Sure. It created a sense of self that believed itself to be superior to many others, of being unique or special. These were, I believe, all compensations for a negative sense of self that has been present since childhood. There were times when thought worlds were a place to retreat to or get lost in. Or they were a distraction at least. Probably more distraction from what was, than anything else. It's funny to consider the word "used" because it was never intentional, but then nothing is.

Yes, thoughts and an assumed self was very useful when we were young, especially if things were difficult.

They were. It wasn't a physically or sexually abusive environment, but there was a great deal that was difficult, unhealthy and pathological about life at home as a kid and teen.

All of these old structures are still functioning. They give you the illusion of safety or whatever it is that is needed. This is also why waking up can be so challenging, because it means we have to face what we avoided when we were young.

I don't doubt this. I'm aware of some of it. I've already faced a lot of the neglect and various types of emotional and psychological abuse. I'm sincerely ready to face whatever has to be faced. I've carried this stuff for many years. Enough already.

With all of that said, here's part 1 of a pointer on beginning to notice the sense of self.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

(Try to keep the answers short (a few sentences or so). That usually helps keep the focus on direct experience).

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes? (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, etc)

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?
[/quote]

Okay, I'll spend some time with these, sitting quietly. I'll respond to let you know what I've found once I've worked with it. Should I give it a few days before responding here, or should I try to get back to you about this after 24 to 48 hours?

[Bluejay]

Okay, I'll spend some time with these, sitting quietly. I'll respond to let you know what I've found once I've worked with it. Should I give it a few days before responding here, or should I try to get back to you about this after 24 to 48 hours?

Do whatever feels right for you and let's go from there.

Most people begin to lose momentum if they take too long to respond, but it doesn't seem you have that problem, so I say trust what seems appropriate.

I'll post more tomorrow addressing your comments and questions!

[Bluejay]

That's an interesting deduction, I would never have a arrived at that. As close as I can confirm and recognize is that often there are things that happen (many times daily with my daughter is a common one) where there's a feeling of aversion/I don't want this/this isn't how it should be, and instead of looking at and working with that internal reaction, I instead try to deal with the feeling by managing those external things that seem to provoke it. I've heard many say that there's not actually a direct connection or relationship between these external things and the feeling that appears to arise in response to them. I suppose you're correct. I'm not really feeling what's inside as I'm distracted by/with what's happening 'out there' instead.

As an exploration, take one of these events. Anything that comes to mind is fine.

Then look at the sequence as it happened (don't want this, managing external things).

Now rewind to the moment the sensations appear that lead to a feeling of aversion and the sequence of events you describe above. This could be taken down the fetter 4/5 road of staying in the gap, but I'd like you to just stay with the sensations and not in the gap.

Just feel the sensations that start the whole thing.

So using the example I gave above, it's not about feeling that someone is doing something that's 'wrong', 'unjust', 'unfair' and so on, but is actually about not wanting to feel those unpleasant feelings that come up inside?

Yes.

And often we make things wrong, unjust, and unfair because we don't like the way it feels, or it's not the way things are done, or how you learned to do them.

I think I equate seeing through the first fetter with relinquishing control, and not trying to micro-manage so much of what goes on around me.

Yet isn't the micro-managing also done by no inherent self?

There are micro-managing humans all over the planet, and it's all happening by itself. This includes the feeling of control, the seeming doing, and everything that comes with it.

The complete relinquishing of control you imagine will probably not happen with the first fetter falling.

I've already faced a great deal of unpleasant and painful material, so why not more? Any price to be free.

Great attitude :)

What's familiar for me isn't comforting. Being a parent has been really hard and stressful. I'd love to let go of what's familiar so that what is doesn't have to be such a burden. I make it more difficult than it needs to be.

What's comforting isn't always something pleasant, but I understand what you mean. I have two kids myself and it can be very challenging.

I've had a fair bit of experience with blind spots, and the hard thing about blind spots is finding them. So How do I find what stands in the way? If you asked me to make a list, I'd undoubtedly leave off things because I wasn't aware of them.

In my experience, we don't have to go digging for anything, because what is needed is often already here. And in many cases the searching for something to work with is an avoidance of what is already here, such as the aversion sequences with your daughter.

So this is part of what you're suggesting I do now? That's fine, just want to be clear.

Yup!

Not sure what you mean by that being a good doorway into feeling.

Doorway, as in when the desire to be free is there, look at what you want to be free from. There will be aversion, discomfort, or something similar there. When you dive into that, that is the 'doorway' so to speak.

Again, this is something to do when sitting quietly, rather than listing it here?

You can mention whatever you think is relevant here as well. It's up to you. Perhaps exploring it and then a summary here. And if more is needed, I can always ask, or you can share if you feel I didn't get the whole picture.

They were. It wasn't a physically or sexually abusive environment, but there was a great deal that was difficult, unhealthy and pathological about life at home as a kid and teen.

Sorry to hear that!

Have you done any therapy on this, or any emotional work on your own?

[Darrell]

So here's what I'm doing, starting today, which I am about to do after I hit 'submit' on this message -

You could try this in meditation sitting or lying down.

Simply relaxing, and then silently saying: I am ready to feel what I don't want to feel. I am ready to see what I don't want to see.

If any resistance comes up, notice where it is in the body, and dive into it. Again, letting it expand and do whatever it wants.

Keep the focus of attention on the sense of self and inquire:

And -

(Try to keep the answers short (a few sentences or so). That usually helps keep the focus on direct experience).

Does the sense of self have a location?

Does the sense of self have a shape or a size?

Does the sense of self say or communicate anything?

If the answer is yes, how does the sense do this exactly?

Does the sense of self have any characteristics or attributes? (shimmering, tingling, pulsing, etc)

What is the sense of self ‘made of’? An image? Sound? Taste? Smell? Sensation? Thought?

What is found?

Just wanting to make sure I'm clear on what you want me to be doing.

Also, in response to your last question of your most recent message. I've done both. I've done a lot of therapy. As well, I worked with some of this when I' have taken the Finders Course in years past. being a Finders Course alumni I did a lot of work on this through the FC alumni group, Perfectly Okay (POK). In POK I worked with two fellow alumni, one a Jungian psychologist and a the other a licensed therapist/social worker, who was also trained in several other therapeutic modalities. I've been digging into this stuff for decades, but the real work and breakthrough was through the work with those two POK alumni I mentioned. It only lasted about seven months, but more was uncovered in those seven months than in all the years of therapy that preceded it.

I'll respond to the rest of your most recent message later today or tomorrow. Right now, I'd better take the time to sit quietly while I have it, or inevitably, something will get in the way of it.

More soon...

[Bluejay]

Just wanting to make sure I'm clear on what you want me to be doing.

Sounds good. Just don't mix the two. In other words, focus on the first one for a while, and then the questions in the second one.

Also, in response to your last question of your most recent message. I've done both. I've done a lot of therapy. As well, I worked with some of this when I' have taken the Finders Course in years past. being a Finders Course alumni I did a lot of work on this through the FC alumni group, Perfectly Okay (POK). In POK I worked with two fellow alumni, one a Jungian psychologist and a the other a licensed therapist/social worker, who was also trained in several other therapeutic modalities. I've been digging into this stuff for decades, but the real work and breakthrough was through the work with those two POK alumni I mentioned. It only lasted about seven months, but more was uncovered in those seven months than in all the years of therapy that preceded it.

Happy to hear that, because unresolved trauma tends to come to the fore as more layers of illusion are seen through. At least, that can be the case.

[Darrell]

Sounds good. Just don't mix the two. In other words, focus on the first one for a while, and then the questions in the second one.

I wish I'd read this before sitting down to spend some time on this yesterday. I did the first one, repeating it many times, slowly, and with as much intention and understanding of being fully open to receive these things, whatever they might be. In doing so, I got the idea that it was do it once, then let it manifest in its own time. Now I see I was mistaken. I'm not sure which to begin with. I'm drawn to the second half, due the desire to really get a deeper, more intuitive sense of the illusion of a separate, independent self, "I", "me" or "myself". Having said that, things you've said to me have me thinking that I really have some mistaken and incorrect expectations of what dissolving the first fetter actually means. I think I equate it, not only with those strong tastes of liberation I've had in the past, but also the honeymoon period I experienced after really seeing clearly the illusion of self last July. I was significantly less reactive. I had no need or desire to defend myself or blame others. I had two serious incidents that first week after that seeing clearly, and normally I would have sought to protect myself, at least. I don't know about blaming anyone, because I know I always have my part in any situation with another. That being said, I think those experiences have created expectations about the ending of the first fetter. Curiously, I'm not sure I have any around the second and third.

Happy to hear that, because unresolved trauma tends to come to the fore as more layers of illusion are seen through. At least, that can be the case.

Whatever comes up is fine. Whatever it takes to be free of anything weighing me down. I suspect there is at least one real doozy. I say that because there is one really bizarre incident that I recall in a general way, but no matter how I've tried, can't recall any of the details. I've talked with my wife about it over the years, and she believes there's more to it than I currently know, having had similar experiences at the hands of others. Sorry to be so vague, but unless details are important, I figure you'll ask. Otherwise, better to keep things brief.

So, pick one of those two, and focus on it for a period of time. Understood. Also, should I curtail reading books, watching videos regarding awakening for the time you're working with me?

[Bluejay]

I wish I'd read this before sitting down to spend some time on this yesterday. I did the first one, repeating it many times, slowly, and with as much intention and understanding of being fully open to receive these things, whatever they might be. In doing so, I got the idea that it was do it once, then let it manifest in its own time. Now I see I was mistaken. I'm not sure which to begin with.

No problem. We stumble forward :)

"Nobody trips over mountains. It is the small pebble that causes you to stumble. Pass all the pebbles in your path and you will find you have crossed the mountain." - Ralph Waldo Emerson

Set aside 15-20 minutes to just do the first one. Also, the point is not to repeat it like a mantra, but to say it once, then listen/meditate/be for 30-60 seconds or more.

So say it, then direct experience (see, hear, feel).

I'm drawn to the second half, due the desire to really get a deeper, more intuitive sense of the illusion of a separate, independent self, "I", "me" or "myself".

They are both valuable. Also, we don't know what will lead to what, so cannot say that one is more fruitful than the other.

So go with curiosity into both and let things reveal themselves.

Having said that, things you've said to me have me thinking that I really have some mistaken and incorrect expectations of what dissolving the first fetter actually means. I think I equate it, not only with those strong tastes of liberation I've had in the past, but also the honeymoon period I experienced after really seeing clearly the illusion of self last July. I was significantly less reactive. I had no need or desire to defend myself or blame others. I had two serious incidents that first week after that seeing clearly, and normally I would have sought to protect myself, at least. I don't know about blaming anyone, because I know I always have my part in any situation with another. That being said, I think those experiences have created expectations about the ending of the first fetter. Curiously, I'm not sure I have any around the second and third.

I didn't experience any honeymoon period. There was less suffering, and more lightness, but no real bliss or joy. The joy started coming with fetters 4/5 as equanimity increased. But then a strong shift happened in F4/5 that led to a lot of emotional flushing which is still ongoing. So it's difficult to say how this unfolds.

But many go through a honeymoon, but that leads to reactivity. You got a taste, and now all the patterns and desire/aversion are coming to the fore that stand in the way of deepening.

The first fetter is simply about: Is there a doer, thinker, experiencer, ice-cream-eater anywhere in experience? Is there an independent self separate from experience making stuff happen?

This can get confusing fast when expectations are at play, because we want this to often be more than it is.

Whatever comes up is fine. Whatever it takes to be free of anything weighing me down. I suspect there is at least one real doozy. I say that because there is one really bizarre incident that I recall in a general way, but no matter how I've tried, can't recall any of the details. I've talked with my wife about it over the years, and she believes there's more to it than I currently know, having had similar experiences at the hands of others. Sorry to be so vague, but unless details are important, I figure you'll ask. Otherwise, better to keep things brief.

Excellent attitude, especially the one on being ready for a doozy. That has certainly been the case for me.

No details needed in this case, so this was perfect. But yes, be prepared for a doozy. It might happen, or it might not.

So, pick one of those two, and focus on it for a period of time. Understood. Also, should I curtail reading books, watching videos regarding awakening for the time you're working with me?

I would say it's best to curtail any outside information since this is about first-hand experience, but won't forbid you from anything that you feel called to do or watch. You can experiment with going completely without books/videos for a while and just trust your own answers and intuition. If you feel uncomfortable and want to distract with books/videos/seeking, instead stop and feel what is going in the body. No need to force this, but be curious about what is going on.

Also with the questions on self, you can pick one question and just carry it with you during the day. This would allow exploration without alone time.

The feeling one is best done when you have 10-20 minutes to sit alone and feel and notice.

[Darrell]

Checking in. Sorry for the delay. I know you're looking for a response every 24 to 48 hours.

Set aside 15-20 minutes to just do the first one. Also, the point is not to repeat it like a mantra, but to say it once, then listen/meditate/be for 30-60 seconds or more.

So say it, then direct experience (see, hear, feel).

They are both valuable. Also, we don't know what will lead to what, so cannot say that one is more fruitful than the other.

So go with curiosity into both and let things reveal themselves.

So far nothing has revealed itself. There's little to no tension that appears when saying these things. The tension that appears is just a reaction to a fear of what the mind imagines might be lurking. I'm starting to wonder if I haven't uncovered all the important or 'heavy' things. I've gone through, and experienced, the abandonment, the neglect, emotional and psychological abuse. The anger and resentment. I had to do a lot of work for many years to forgive my mom, and other significant figures.

I didn't experience any honeymoon period. There was less suffering, and more lightness, but no real bliss or joy. The joy started coming with fetters 4/5 as equanimity increased. But then a strong shift happened in F4/5 that led to a lot of emotional flushing which is still ongoing. So it's difficult to say how this unfolds.

But many go through a honeymoon, but that leads to reactivity. You got a taste, and now all the patterns and desire/aversion are coming to the fore that stand in the way of deepening.

I've gotten very intense tastes many times since 2014. Sometimes I've even thought, "well, it finally happened. I've crossed over to the far shore." But then a few hours, or a day later, and it's back to whatever you want to call it. Although things are certainly not what they were when I started down this road in 2014, or even after last July. I certainly see and understand the world differently. I suppose those profound experiences are just states, and states are impermanent.

The first fetter is simply about: Is there a doer, thinker, experiencer, ice-cream-eater anywhere in experience? Is there an independent self separate from experience making stuff happen?

No, there isn't. No question. Prior to last July, the idea of a self of any kind had already take some blows, last July was just seeing and understanding it with absolute clarity. Part of what gets in the way are habits, such as thinking, and taking thought to be 'me'. I know and see it isn't, but it has been going on for so long, it has a lot of traction and momentum. Same for feeling and emotion. Stop and look and it is obvious it isn't a self, but without looking at it, it usually is interpreted as such.

Anyway, not much to report. Continuing to work with these things. Will let you know if anything develops.

[Bluejay]

So far nothing has revealed itself. There's little to no tension that appears when saying these things. The tension that appears is just a reaction to a fear of what the mind imagines might be lurking. I'm starting to wonder if I haven't uncovered all the important or 'heavy' things. I've gone through, and experienced, the abandonment, the neglect, emotional and psychological abuse. The anger and resentment. I had to do a lot of work for many years to forgive my mom, and other significant figures.

That sounds great. It will come up if there's anything.

No, there isn't. No question. Prior to last July, the idea of a self of any kind had already take some blows, last July was just seeing and understanding it with absolute clarity. Part of what gets in the way are habits, such as thinking, and taking thought to be 'me'. I know and see it isn't, but it has been going on for so long, it has a lot of traction and momentum. Same for feeling and emotion. Stop and look and it is obvious it isn't a self, but without looking at it, it usually is interpreted as such.

It can be confusing because the initial shift(s) are often so clear, but then as it normalizes, it brings with it all the old patterns and habits. And if the first fetter fell away, it will bring with it reactivity, which often feels like 'I lost it', when it's just the next layer coming up.

So if you have an expectation that there should only be freedom, then of course you will doubt the shift. There can still be suffering, because remember, no one has an inherent self and there's plenty of suffering.

Did you ever see these two videos:

1. https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

2. https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

[Darrell]

The normalization is something the mind seems to have difficulty with. I don't doubt it, There's just something there that I still don't quite understand. I'm not even sure what it is. I've had normalization explained to me really well, once by a retired psychologist I know in the POK community. Maybe I need to spend some time investigating this, rather than just taking it at face value. really, it's the preconceived ideas, misconceptions and expectations that need to be dealt with directly. I think us westerners come to this with a lot of mistaken ideas about this.

The curious thing about last July was how quick it was. That moment of clarity was only seconds. What resulted went on for two weeks, and even then it was so undeniably clear. What was funny, genuinely comical, was that I finally sat down to start through Pernille's video series for the second fetter, and in that very moment, the doubt fired up with a vengeance. It doesn't help that I've been cultivating a finely honed skepticism of sorts since my late teens. An open minded skepticism, but skepticism none the less. I really lived by the words "I don't know", but ironically it didn't seem to apply to my world view, how I perceived things, my values, my beliefs. It hits me know as I type this, I think I'm tired of all that. I'm tired of my beliefs, values, what I think is right or true. It seems it's a lot of freight I'm towing around with me through this life.

I haven't seen the first video. I've seen the second one, but it's been awhile. I can watch it again. They are both short, so why not? There's one by Ilona and Luchana about expectations after awakening I've been meaning to watch for many months. Probably high time to watch that one.

[Bluejay]

The normalization is something the mind seems to have difficulty with. I don't doubt it, There's just something there that I still don't quite understand. I'm not even sure what it is. I've had normalization explained to me really well, once by a retired psychologist I know in the POK community. Maybe I need to spend some time investigating this, rather than just taking it at face value. really, it's the preconceived ideas, misconceptions and expectations that need to be dealt with directly. I think us westerners come to this with a lot of mistaken ideas about this.

Instead of trying to understand with the mind, why not stay in your experience and see what you find?

And if you don't know what that looks like, perhaps just rest and do nothing. Not every question needs an answer. In fact, do questions need answers? (a rhetorical question)

What was funny, genuinely comical, was that I finally sat down to start through Pernille's video series for the second fetter, and in that very moment, the doubt fired up with a vengeance. It doesn't help that I've been cultivating a finely honed skepticism of sorts since my late teens. An open minded skepticism, but skepticism none the less.

I wonder if the doubt is in thinking your experience has to fit a certain mold. You don't trust your own experience, so you go outside for validation. Once you find it, you are allowed to feel that things are OK.

That's why it would be good not engage in too much material on this, but instead rely on your first-hand experience and intuition.

I really lived by the words "I don't know", but ironically it didn't seem to apply to my world view, how I perceived things, my values, my beliefs. It hits me know as I type this, I think I'm tired of all that. I'm tired of my beliefs, values, what I think is right or true. It seems it's a lot of freight I'm towing around with me through this life.

Yes, there is often a lot of certainty and comfort in the doubting stance with which life is fended off or taken in, a sort of distancing.

I haven't seen the first video. I've seen the second one, but it's been awhile. I can watch it again. They are both short, so why not? There's one by Ilona and Luchana about expectations after awakening I've been meaning to watch for many months. Probably high time to watch that one.

Yes, that is an excellent one.

I also wrote an article on the common expectations I've noticed here: https://www.wakeupcloud.com/expectations-of-awakening/