Into the great wide open...

[whiterabbit]

"ease" : where does it manifest in the body ? What is meant by "ease" ?

Inner color/thought of "back", "hands"...
Ease is the absence of a certain sensation, or a sensation of "gentle blood pumping".

"tightness" : where does it manifest in the body ? What is meant by "tightness" ?

Inner color/thought of "shoulders", "cheeks", "temples"...
Tightness is a certain kind of sensation, labelled as "tightness" by thought.

[warissem]

Good evening

Reading your answers, you agree with me that the word "ease" and the word "tightness" are :color/images, thoughts and sensations.

Can you reduce all what is happening in 5 senses appearances :colors, sounds, smells, tastes and sensations. And everything else is only thought. You play with this during a day and let me know how it feels.

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

Reading your answers, you agree with me that the word "ease" and the word "tightness" are :color/images, thoughts and sensations.

yes. an interplay of inner colors and sensation and thought forms.

Can you reduce all what is happening in 5 senses appearances :colors, sounds, smells, tastes and sensations. And everything else is only thought. You play with this during a day and let me know how it feels.

Yes. This is my intention: play with grounding myself in the senses during the day, and report back tomorrow.

[warissem]

Good evening

Have a good time.

Best for you

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

I like this practice. I will continue it for one more day.

[whiterabbit]

And everything else is only thought. You play with this during a day and let me know how it feels.

A memory of direct experience: In the last 48h, there's repeatedly been the thought "let's check in with direct experience". Color arises, sound arises, and sensation arises. I very much enjoy this practice.

[warissem]

Hi

Is there still seeking ? If so what is missing ?
What has changed from the beginning of this dialog ?
Feel free to expose any lasting doubt here.

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

Is there still seeking ? If so what is missing ?

Color is seen as not me. Sound is seen as not me. Thoughts (perceived as inner sounds and inner colors) is seen as not me.
However, sensation ("inner aliveness") is somehow seen as me. It seems like the essence of me.
Thought: This body seems conditioned to run away from sensation into thought.

What has changed from the beginning of this dialog ?

In the beginning, there was a sense of a passive observer and active manager directing things.

Now, it is believed that managing happens automatically as a result of thoughts (and other processes) which arise. There is no entity controlling. The perceived sense of "controlling" arises from thought (and other impulses).

As for observation, there are things arising... a dance of color, sound, sensation, and thought... but there's not a "controlling" observer which directs where attention should go or analyses/reflects what happens. It is more like the sense I used to have when sitting in front of a film, getting immersed in it, and things just happen.

[warissem]

Hi

Color is seen as not me. Sound is seen as not me. Thoughts (perceived as inner sounds and inner colors) is seen as not me.
However, sensation ("inner aliveness") is somehow seen as me. It seems like the essence of me.

Have you done the exercise about the body? Are a you a sensation ?
Are you aware of sensations ?

Thought: This body seems conditioned to run away from sensation into thought.

The body has nothing to do with thoughts. It is not sentient. Who or what is knowing thoughts and the body?

In the beginning, there was a sense of a passive observer and active manager directing things.

Now, it is believed that managing happens automatically as a result of thoughts (and other processes) which arise.

Is it a belief or have you seen for sure that managing happens on automatic ? If you have not seen that, go back to the thoughts exercise and do it again.

There is no entity controlling. The perceived sense of "controlling" arises from thought (and other impulses).

Yes.

As for observation, there are things arising... a dance of color, sound, sensation, and thought... but there's not a "controlling" observer which directs where attention should go or analyses/reflects what happens. It is more like the sense I used to have when sitting in front of a film, getting immersed in it, and things just happen.

Yes. Have you seen that there is no you, no separate self in any shape or form ?

Best for you

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

Have you done the exercise about the body?

Is this the one where you asked "Can it be known how tall the body is?"?

Are you aware of sensations ?

There is an awareness of sensation.

Thought: This body seems conditioned to run away from sensation into thought.

The body has nothing to do with thoughts. It is not sentient. Who or what is knowing thoughts and the body?

I used the expression this body here to mean "in this experience as it appears here".

In the beginning, there was a sense of a passive observer and active manager directing things.

Now, it is believed that managing happens automatically as a result of thoughts (and other processes) which arise.

Is it a belief or have you seen for sure that managing happens on automatic ? If you have not seen that, go back to the thoughts exercise and do it again.

I used the expression it is believed to mean "a thought appears" based on "direct experience".
I have looked in direct experience repeatedly and seen no manager.

Have you seen that there is no you, no separate self in any shape or form ?

No answer seems to appear.

[warissem]

Good morning

These are the questions which are usually asked to end the dialog. I invite you to ponder on each of them and elaborate on your answers.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Take your time
Best for you

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

I notice responding isn't happening. There's the thought "resistance to respond".

[warissem]

Hi

Ok, does this thought come with a sensation in the body ?

Anyway, ponder on each question and write what is coming up.

Relax and be in the state of no responding.

Warissem

[whiterabbit]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Same words sometimes have different meanings. When LU talks of self, me, and I they mean something specific. In common usage, me can refer to an appearance of a "body" with colors of a "hand" and sound of a "voice"; a bit like apple can refer to an appearance of a certain color and taste. This is not what is meant here. When LU talks about me, they mean a supposed "invisible" entity that can influence what thoughts, colors, and sounds appear; an entity that is the "central controller".

After careful observation of direct experience (color, sound, various sensation, and a mysterious thing called thought), it is seen that these things just appear and there seems no possibility to influence it. It is seen in countless experiments that what appears in direct experience happens outside control. In particular, trying to find a supposed central controller ends up leading nowhere. Without any evidence of such an entity, it is hard to suppose such a thing exists. The long-held belief of its existence must thus be discarded due to lack of evidence.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

Here is what's been aware of as I'm typing these words.
There is a sensation of "typing", there are colors of "letters" appearing on the "screen". There is a thought "where do these words come from?". No answer. There is a thought "this sentence needs to be slightly changed". More sensation of "typing", more letters appearing.
Afterwards, there may be a question "Who typed these letters?" or "Who had these thoughts?". I may answer with "I typed these letters, I had these thoughts". Previously, it may have been believed some controlling entity within did this. Now, it is seen that these things just seem to happen by themselves. And when the word "I" is used, it refers to direct experience here and possibly an appearance of a body, voice, and associated phenomena.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

I notice no change in direct experience.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

For me, the most important part was definitional and experiential.
Definitional: Understanding what LU meant by me or separate self. (Since I'd had insights previously and used other terminology here.)
Experiential: direct experience, careful looking, carefully examining the evidence.

5) Describe decision,
intention,
free will,
choice and control.
What makes things happen? How does it work? Give examples from experience.

Decision: A lot of "decision" seems to happen without awareness of it, there is simply a recognition (thought) of "a changed state". Other decision here happens in awareness: it involves sensation, thoughts "options", thoughts "decision", color and sensation "action". In summary: an interplay of thinking and various sensation.
Intention: thoughts appearing.
Free will: thoughts appearing.
Choice and Control: thoughts appearing.

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

Assuming you here means a supposed inner "controller" and responsible means "ability to influence things", then, since no evidence of such a controller can be found here, there is nothing that the "I" can be responsible for.

In a broader sense, there is an appearance of a you, that is, a body/brain that does seemingly influence things, does take care of its body (involving thinking and various sensation), and other appearances. However, there is no inner controller that does it, rather it's something that happens by a decentralized interplay of thinking and sensation. This interplay is the essence of awareness; there's no evidence of an entity that controls it, there's no evidence of an entity that manages it, the interplay just happens. Awareness happens.

6) Anything to add?

There seems to be inner confusion. On the one hand, it is recognized that there's no entity that controls by lack of evidence... it is looked again and again and again... and no controller is detected. On the other hand, there is still voluminous thinking/sensation appearing whose content seems to suppose there is control and a central entity of some kind. Maybe this is inevitable and the shift in content will happen gradually.

[whiterabbit]

Sorry, I accidentally hit "Submit" instead of "Preview". I'm reposting again. If any moderator reads this, feel free to delete the previous post.