Looking to see deeper

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul

There hasn't been a big "shift" like the kind I remember reading accounts of in the LU book. The main difference I notice is more interest in DE and less interest in thoughts.

Remember, when realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. So is there still seeking? Seeking of what?

If you'll allow me to refer to time, yesterday the thoughts about "me" still happened very frequently and were often not "seen through".

Noticing happens or it doesn’t. You said: “Noticing of thought is happening automatically, but I'm not doing it” and “No, I can't control anything (noticing).” So, why do you expect that there will be more noticing? ‘You’ have never existed – it’s not that something has changed. It’s just the thought content changes but it takes time for old thought patterns to be rewritten. Ultimately, when all thoughts are seen as empty, their "stickiness" diminishes.

The feeling sense after seeing a 'friend' would probably be different from the feeling sense after seeing a 'foe' (open vs. tight/constricted sensations)...
...No, 'the past' is a concept and the memory happens as a thought right now.

What is a feeling sense? Is this coming from DE? Please use the DE labelling that we have agreed on. Has this ‘person’ been always a 'foe'? Is the “foe-ness” intrinsic to this “person”? Or just the narrative about this ‘person’ changed?
Also, if a memory/thought is appearing now how is it different from a thought about a ‘stranger’? Obviously, that kind of thought content is not accurate and causes tension (sensation), but ultimately the only difference is in the content. If the “I” and “others” are believed to be entities, the ‘mind’ is confused, and the ‘body’ tenses up. In DE there are just different colours with no borders (are they even so different?). Think of memory of you lying about something. Try to remember the sensations that you experienced and compare them to “tight/constricted” sensations about a ‘foe’. How do they differ?

Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

Experience has been unusual recently. Yesterday the 'I' was clearly seen as non-existent. This recognition cleared up a lot of misunderstanding. What was realized is that nothing about the 'I' needs to change for liberation, because the 'I' doesn't exist! The 'I' thoughts could continue and it doesn't matter because they're just thoughts. Experience happens, but the 'I' doesn't. This was sincerely recognized and written down: "there never actually was an 'I'". Experience was very vivid - it was like being in a "flow state" a lot of the time. There was no seeking left to do.

What's odd is that this recognition somehow went away! After several hours a migraine headache started coming on, and the 'I' was no longer seen as non-existent. I tend to get headaches like this 2-3 times a month. With the headache, there was the desire for the pain to go away, and that desire was seen as belonging to "me." I kept doing inquiry into what this "me" is that wants the pain to go away, but it didn't work. The desire for the pain to go away felt like an identity. A similar experience continued the next morning. I'm typing this now in the evening. The headache is almost gone now but the experience is not like what it was yesterday when the 'I' was clearly seen as non-existent.

Before this 'glimpse', I was clicking around LU and stumbled upon this blog post by another LU guide, Vivien:

https://fadingveiling.com/2020/10/19/ho ... -thoughts/

When I was reading it I got stuck at this part: "Can you see that there is still a belief that there is someone here who must disregard thoughts or disidentify with them? So what is it? What is it that is currently identified with thoughts?"

I kept repeating these questions over and over for about 20 minutes, like they were zen koans. That's when the belief in 'I' stopped.

What is a feeling sense?

Oops I meant "sensation," I used the the wrong terminology because I'm used to labeling that sense as "feeling" before LU.

Has this ‘person’ been always a 'foe'? Is the “foe-ness” intrinsic to this “person”? Or just the narrative about this ‘person’ changed?

No, a 'person' isn't seen as a 'foe' until a change in narrative.

Also, if a memory/thought is appearing now how is it different from a thought about a ‘stranger’?

They aren't different other than the content.

Think of memory of you lying about something. Try to remember the sensations that you experienced and compare them to “tight/constricted” sensations about a ‘foe’. How do they differ?

The tight/constricted sensations are similar but the part of the body that the sensations are associated with (by thought) are different (throat area vs. chest area).

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul

Experience has been unusual recently. Yesterday the 'I' was clearly seen as non-existent. This recognition cleared up a lot of misunderstanding. What was realized is that nothing about the 'I' needs to change for liberation, because the 'I' doesn't exist! The 'I' thoughts could continue and it doesn't matter because they're just thoughts. Experience happens, but the 'I' doesn't. This was sincerely recognized and written down: "there never actually was an 'I'". Experience was very vivid - it was like being in a "flow state" a lot of the time. There was no seeking left to do.

Awesome! Yay! I loved your description!

What's odd is that this recognition somehow went away! After several hours a migraine headache started coming on, and the 'I' was no longer seen as non-existent. I tend to get headaches like this 2-3 times a month. With the headache, there was the desire for the pain to go away, and that desire was seen as belonging to "me." I kept doing inquiry into what this "me" is that wants the pain to go away, but it didn't work. The desire for the pain to go away felt like an identity. A similar experience continued the next morning. I'm typing this now in the evening. The headache is almost gone now but the experience is not like what it was yesterday when the 'I' was clearly seen as non-existent.

Like I said, ‘noticing’ happens and ‘not noticing’ also. Peace eventually comes with not minding what happens. When pain appears ('unpleasant" experience), there are usually thoughts how things should be different and the pain should not be here. But these are just thoughts. When you say that these thoughts ‘felt like’ :) an identity, how is this experienced in DE? Do you see an entity attached to them? What makes them a "me"? Is it the fear that is protecting a "me"? Is it the intensity of the pain? Next time instead of concentrating on exploring the desire for the pain to go away, try staying with the pain, welcoming it. See what happens with the pain. Eventually belief in the truthfulness of a story drops away. The story is way more enjoyable without a "me" and the fear that something can happen to this “me.” Once it’s clearly seen that there is no actual me, there is no place for the story to stick (to form an identity). Whatever happens feels okay. Even pain :)

Oops I meant "sensation," I used the the wrong terminology because I'm used to labeling that sense as "feeling" before LU.

The reason, why I am so persistent about this, is that we are trying to change old thought patterns, and how you describe your experience is part of it. The closer your description comes to DE the more discrepancies are noticed and corrected. Please indulge me here!
Paul, it seems like we missed an opportunity to explore something here. This is why I insist on a daily conversation. The commitment from my side is here. You are saying there is no seeking, but you do read other forum conversations, which actually could be a distraction as every guide has a different way of guiding. If you think that another guide can be more useful to you, we can try accommodating this.
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

Paul, it seems like we missed an opportunity to explore something here. This is why I insist on a daily conversation. The commitment from my side is here. You are saying there is no seeking, but you do read other forum conversations, which actually could be a distraction as every guide has a different way of guiding. If you think that another guide can be more useful to you, we can try accommodating this.

Your guiding has been excellent. I am so grateful for it. It was only due to a misunderstanding that I didn't connect with your last set of questions, which led me to explore other content on this site. I won't do that anymore if you think it's counterproductive. To be clear, when I wrote "there is no seeking," that only describes the experience for a few hours, not before when reading a LU thread nor after the migraine headache started. During that time of recognition, I wrote a long reply to post in this thread. But then the migraine headache started, identity 'came back' and the reply no longer looked like an accurate description of my experience, and due to the disappointment of identity returning and pain from the headache, I didn't write a new reply that day. I'll reply here daily from now on. If I don't have time to respond to questions, I'll just note that.

The reason, why I am so persistent about this, is that we are trying to change old thought patterns, and how you describe your experience is part of it. The closer your description comes to DE the more discrepancies are noticed and corrected. Please indulge me here!

I think I'm not explaining clearly. On LU this terminology is used: "seeing/hearing/sensing/tasting/smelling." Before I joined LU I labeled these same senses as "seeing/hearing/feeling/tasting/smelling." So when I responded to your question, it was merely a mislabeling when I wrote "feeling" instead of "sensing." I was not confusing "sensing" with the noun "feeling" (emotion). That's why I only gave a brief reply to your question "What is a feeling sense? Is this coming from DE?". I'll add now, the labeling 'open' 'tight/constricted' is not coming from DE but the sensation is.

I'm going to be busy with family all day today but I'll try to respond to your remaining questions this evening.

[PaulB]

Like I said, ‘noticing’ happens and ‘not noticing’ also. Peace eventually comes with not minding what happens.

What do you mean by 'noticing' and 'not noticing'? Are you referring to 'noticing' and 'not noticing' that there is no 'I'? I don't understand how there can be peace when 'I' is believed to exist.

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

'I' is seen as non-existent again :)

This afternoon there was an opportunity to take 10 minutes to sit quietly by the window and look at the trees outside. That combined with a little bit of inquiry was all it took! It's funny how obvious it is. In the 'I' thoughts, the 'I' was totally baffled! Since this afternoon, any time there were thoughts to check if there is an 'I', it was clear that there isn't. Other than this, the difference in experience is subtle. The best way to describe it right now is "lighter."

When you say that these thoughts ‘felt like’ :) an identity, how is this experienced in DE?

haha, 'felt like'! The identity was never experienced in DE.

Do you see an entity attached to them?

The entity was imagined!

What makes them a "me"?

Good question, how does the illusion happen? That is not clear.

Is it the fear that is protecting a "me"?

Yes. The fear was not as extreme as expected though. It was not like taking a blind faith jump into the abyss. This leads to some 'I' thoughts that true recognition couldn't have really happened.

Is it the intensity of the pain?

When a thought is seen as absurd, its doesn't recur so often. The recurrence of pain moment after moment is like catalyst for "me" thoughts to arise moment after moment about wanting the pain to end.

Next time instead of concentrating on exploring the desire for the pain to go away, try staying with the pain, welcoming it. See what happens with the pain.

Thank you, good idea.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
Thank you very much for trusting me to guide you!

I think I'm not explaining clearly. On LU this terminology is used: "seeing/hearing/sensing/tasting/smelling." Before I joined LU I labeled these same senses as "seeing/hearing/feeling/tasting/smelling." So when I responded to your question, it was merely a mislabeling when I wrote "feeling" instead of "sensing." I was not confusing "sensing" with the noun "feeling" (emotion). That's why I only gave a brief reply to your question "What is a feeling sense? Is this coming from DE?". I'll add now, the labeling 'open' 'tight/constricted' is not coming from DE but the sensation is.

You see how much we rely on labels for communication and how easily we can be “screwed” by them, just because of a different labelling system. Most of the time, our arguments with other people are caused by that to some degree :). That’s why we agree on labelling about DE in the beginning.

What do you mean by 'noticing' and 'not noticing'? Are you referring to 'noticing' and 'not noticing' that there is no 'I'? I don't understand how there can be peace when 'I' is believed to exist.

No, I was referring to noticing of thought content (DE). Once the “I” is properly seen as non-existent/a label, it can’t be unseen. The same way you don't think that Santa is real now :). Thoughts say a lot of things and as we’ve seen they are not 100% right. So, examining their accuracy (old conditioning) happens at first slowly and then more often. Letting go happens on its own effortlessly, when the futility of trying to grasp THIS with thoughts is recognized. Eventually, all thoughts are seen as empty, but that can take some time. What we do here in LU is to make sure that “I” is seen for what it is in all its “forms”. The rest happens on its own.

This afternoon there was an opportunity to take 10 minutes to sit quietly by the window and look at the trees outside. That combined with a little bit of inquiry was all it took! It's funny how obvious it is. In the 'I' thoughts, the 'I' was totally baffled! Since this afternoon, any time there were thoughts to check if there is an 'I', it was clear that there isn't. Other than this, the difference in experience is subtle. The best way to describe it right now is "lighter."

Awesome!!! I can see a shift is happening!! I really liked your answers as well – there is lightness about them as well.

Good question, how does the illusion happen? That is not clear.

Now, look! For an illusion to be seen as that or not, there is a need for a reference point (a center) - something to identify with thoughts, believe them or not. So, check is there anything that believes them? Or is it just a sequencing of thoughts that creates the illusion, like the frames of a movie, where rapid series of still images create the illusion of movement? When frame rate slows down the illusion of movement is lost. “Illusion”, though, is still a misleading label (thought content) as there is no reference point – it’s all THIS, all just happening ("movement" as well).
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

I had an unexpectedly busy evening responding to an emergency with my grandmother. It looks like she will be ok now. But I will just do a short inquiry before I go to bed.

For an illusion to be seen as that or not, there is a need for a reference point (a center) - something to identify with thoughts, believe them or not. So, check is there anything that believes them?

No, there isn't anything that believes the thoughts. The "belief in thought" is only another thought.

Or is it just a sequencing of thoughts that creates the illusion, like the frames of a movie, where rapid series of still images create the illusion of movement?

Yes, experience is more like this. Thoughts are very quick at dividing the senses into parts by labeling them. The labeled objects are then labeled as either *being* 'me' or being perceived *by* 'me'. Another type of thought commonly occurring is a quick mental image of the face as it appears in the mirror. The facial expression in the mental image tends to fit with the thoughts it appears with, e.g. a smile with a positive thought about the future or a worried expression with an anxious thought about the future.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
I hope your grandmother is feeling better. I also had an emergency with my father, but he seems to be OK now.

Yes, experience is more like this. Thoughts are very quick at dividing the senses into parts by labeling them. The labeled objects are then labeled as either *being* 'me' or being perceived *by* 'me'.

Great! And language is not helpful as well, creating a doer out of thin air. Otherwise, If I was taking thoughts seriosly, I would have assumed that your thoughts are actually very skilful editors, busy labelling stuff and causing a division :). Thoughts are always out of whack with reality, and they put an extra filter on top of how things actually are. Reality is very simple. Once you see this, you will stop trying to find answers and figure out how things are. Truth is simple— life is, THIS is it. There is no separate life force that moves the separate body. There is no thinker, no doer, no witness, but experience happening. Right now. Thinking is part of it too - like coloured glasses that can be on or off :)

Another type of thought commonly occurring is a quick mental image of the face as it appears in the mirror. The facial expression in the mental image tends to fit with the thoughts it appears with, e.g. a smile with a positive thought about the future or a worried expression with an anxious thought about the future.

Yes, thoughts come in various shapes and types - all mental - but they are still concepts, built on other concepts, which, in turn, are built on even more concepts, creating a house of cards in which everything makes sense in the context of the other concepts.

Is there anything else that you want to explore?

Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

Let me give you a sense of what experience is like lately.

The only consistent difference is the 'potential' to look for an 'I' at any time, and see that it is not there. This is so richly wonderful and freeing. I am so grateful to you for helping me find this!

The other differences in experience are subtle right now. There is more 'lightness,' more 'flow,' but not all of the time. When not examined, a common interpretation is that 'I' do things and think things. There are still many 'I' thoughts and still habituated sensations from self/insecurity that arise in the body. For example, walking on a nature trail feeling 'in flow', until someone approaches from the opposite direction, then some 'contracted' sensations and 'I' thoughts arise. There are also 'bad habits' that may have been formed out of avoidance that apparently continue. There's an intuition that there will be an unwinding process where a lot of this changes. I recognize a lot of this isn't from DE but I wanted to communicate it anyway.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul

For example, walking on a nature trail feeling 'in flow', until someone approaches from the opposite direction, then some 'contracted' sensations and 'I' thoughts arise.

This is usually the part that takes the longest to fall away. But checking again and again with your DE helps. If there is no “I” “here”, why should there be an “I” “there”? How is “someone” seen in DE? Over and over again, until it sinks in.

There are also 'bad habits' that may have been formed out of avoidance that apparently continue. There's an intuition that there will be an unwinding process where a lot of this changes. I recognize a lot of this isn't from DE but I wanted to communicate it anyway.

When the core belief has been busted, a lot of other beliefs will still be hanging around. What you want to do at this point is LOOK and LOOK again. Keep your eyes open, let the beliefs come to the surface and just keep looking. They will come up one by one ready to be examined and released. Don’t fight them. Hold on to nothing. As soon as you start holding on to beliefs and ideas, you get stuck - you feel right about something and feel like you have an opinion. To unstick, just let it all fall off. That means question everything you are certain about. It may take a few months or a few years to settle in - there is no way to know how long it will take for everything to be re-examined. Sometimes it is intense, sometimes it’s gentle, but there is no finish line, only falling deeper and deeper into peace. Looking is the tool that has to be used over and over again. “Crossing the gate” is only the beginning of a long integration and examination. All this old conditioning has to be seen for what it is. The best part is that the cleaning happens on its own – it takes care of itself. If fear appears, it just shows that there are areas that have not been examined and need to be explored with DE.

Is there anything else that you want to explore together specifically? Are you ready for the final questions?

Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

If there is no “I” “here”, why should there be an “I” “there”? How is “someone” seen in DE?

Right, there isn't an 'I' or 'someone' there in DE, there isn't even 'here' or 'there'.

When the core belief has been busted, a lot of other beliefs will still be hanging around. What you want to do at this point is LOOK and LOOK again.

That is good to know and it's what is happening automatically already.

The best part is that the cleaning happens on its own – it takes care of itself.

Yes :)

Is there anything else that you want to explore together specifically? Are you ready for the final questions?

No, nothing is coming up. I am ready for the final questions.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
Awesome! Here are the final questions. Please answer all questions in full, when you are ready.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over; made you look?

5) Describe decision, intention, free will, choice and control. What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?
Love
Rali

[PaulB]

Hi Rali

Thank you for the questions, I didn't have time today but I'll respond to them tomorrow.

[poppyseed]

Hi Paul
No worries! Take your time :)
Love
R