My journey into realization

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

Everything you've said today is great.

Let's keep looking at what you were saying just few days ago.

. Still, it feels like a familiar thought, and something that seem to have extra baggage (narratives, speculation, identification..) with it, like I am addicted to it. what if I could see it in the same way as I notice a cloud or even a thunder storm? Something impersonal. That would be freeing.

That may not be so impossible. Not exactly as a cloud is seen (visually) but 'seen' nonetheless, and clearly .

Does it need to be an "experience of clarity" or simply clarity?

Thoughts tend to keep appearing. Is it fair to say that each thought tends to 'say' something? Each thought is ABOUT something.? Each thought has some sort of content or story?

If thoughts are like clouds that cross a clear sky it may seem as though the sky has been annihilated by the thoughts. But what if the sky itself simply IS, never changing, clear, and the various clouds are just temporary shapes that cross it and cannot add or take away from it ?


With love

Jon










What is preventing the clear seeing?

[KingGong]

Hi

Great and provoking questions, just the way I like it ;) Thank you.

Does it need to be an "experience of clarity" or simply clarity?

I like clarity better. It sounds simpler. I suspect there is a "trick" here. What is clarity exactly and how could anything not be clear? There seem to be resistance, avoidance, grasping, fixating, pushing and pulling in life. There is clarity about that, in the form of thoughts. Or am I escaping life with this sort of reasoning? It sure feels disorienting sometimes to be in a thought loop, or a strong emotion accompanied with a raging voice in your head. Sill the clarity can seem to be there even in the midst of the thunder storm. The way I could argument against that in my experience is that thoughts feel hypnotic, they feel like I am caught up in them, not aware of the "clear sky" as you mentioned it. Then it feels like the thoughts take away something, but this is an expectation and belief of something it seems, of what the clear sky actually looks like and is.

Thoughts tend to keep appearing. Is it fair to say that each thought tends to 'say' something? Each thought is ABOUT something.? Each thought has some sort of content or story?

Not really. Thoughts are not really saying anything or is about something. They are. They are there in the same way as color is there. A color doesn't say something or is about something. But also yes, what you say can also seem to be true when I remember the commentator or voice in my head.. And there can be confusion about what that content or story is, and judging that content, reflecting it, but those are all new thoughts again. However, that is not always easy to remember when things are going on like that. But do I need to remember this? Or can I just relax, and let this go on without thinking more about it (not that there is an "I" that chooses any of this).

It seems like what is preventing the clear seeing is the expectations and doubt about what the clear sky would look and feel when noticed, and what the actual evidence of a "clear seeing" is supposed to be.


Love

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

. I like clarity better. It sounds simpler. I suspect there is a "trick" here.

It may be that in speaking about clarity are already supposing something. It is simple, but by now we are using a label, a name. Now there's the idea that there is a something, "clarity", rather than whatever already IS.

. There seem to be resistance, avoidance, grasping, fixating, pushing and pulling in life. There is clarity about that, in the form of thoughts.
Or am I escaping life with this sort of reasoning? It sure feels disorienting sometimes to be in a thought loop, or a strong emotion accompanied with a raging voice in your head.

Well, as I read this I see belief in a self that is imagined to be experiencing these experiences.

the clarity can seem to be there even in the midst of the storm

Yes. Where it's seem that there's no actual self entity, what's actually going on in any particular moment becomes much clearer and fiction surrounding a "me" is seen as stories ABOUT a self rather than symbolic of the "existence" of one.

. The way I could argument against that in my experience is that thoughts feel hypnotic, they feel like I am caught up in them, not aware of the "clear sky" as you mentioned it. Then it feels like the thoughts take away something, but this is an expectation and belief of something it seems, of what the clear sky actually looks like and is.

Yes, once "clarity" appears to be a thing, named , then there can be an apparent lack of something.

. But do I need to remember this? Or can I just relax, and let this go on without thinking more about it (not that there is an "I" that chooses any of this).

That's an interesting question. Yes. Please feel relaxed about this. Trying to remember is really not helpful but noticing any immediate experience in the moment is helpful. But again, this is natural. Not about the need for someone to be super-vigilant.

. It seems like what is preventing the clear seeing is the expectations and doubt about what the clear sky would look and feel when noticed, and what the actual evidence of a "clear seeing" is supposed to be.

You've almost reached the point at which , if you simply dropped the effort to achieve clarity, it would be seen that there had never been a need for that! :-)

Love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

It may be that in speaking about clarity are already supposing something. It is simple, but by now we are using a label, a name. Now there's the idea that there is a something, "clarity", rather than whatever already IS.

You are paradoxically really good at making that "what already IS" "crystal clear".

Well, as I read this I see belief in a self that is imagined to be experiencing these experiences.

Yes. But I liked one of the quotes from the Enlightening quotes on the front page today: "And thoughts themselves cannot think". The self cannot think! At best it is just a thought?

Yes, once "clarity" appears to be a thing, named , then there can be an apparent lack of something.

I don't mind letting go of "clarity" for a moment and just see what is here.

Lets see how much effort there is left.. To achieve clarity sounds a bit absurd to be honest. Glad you pointed this out.


Love

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

. But I liked one of the quotes from the Enlightening quotes on the front page today: "And thoughts themselves cannot think". The self cannot think! At best it is just a thought?

Yes. It seems as though 'self' is actually somewhere. As if hanging out in some place or other. The idea being an entity that "actually exists". That's why guides advocate looking for the supposed entity. If there were a real entity it could be traced or tracked down.

But if "it" is a thought, or one thought after another that seems to refer to an "it" , what then?

Sometimes it can seem that "I will be in such and such a place in three hours' time". This can seem to support the idea of an unchanging entity. Or the thought can be about "me last week, decorating the front room (or something)". An imagined entity in a Future or a Past can seem to confirm the presence of one that's here right now.

A very good question to ask and look at is "is there a self here right now"?

Was there ever and will there ever be one ?


Love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Oops,

And I meant to ask where are "past" and "future" anyway?

[KingGong]

Hi

But if "it" is a thought, or one thought after another that seems to refer to an "it" , what then?

Then it is an illusion, something referring to something that is missing, or mistaken to be true.
It is like talking to a ghost which is not there.

Was there ever and will there ever be one ?

Do you know the feeling of your hand? Switch "hand" with self and you get where I am. When I take a moment and just sit and relax, and notice anything, there is almost like a phantom feeling of a self, it actually feels like sensations in the brain, neural pathways that are smoking from the traffic going. Then it calms down. I was listening to music right before this answer, so that might also play a part.
Those sensations are memorized it seems as "self", just as the sensations in the hand is memorized as "hand". They feel like me. But is it me? No.. Its just sensations in the brain mixed with seeing, hearing, etc..

A very good question to ask and look at is "is there a self here right now"?

Asking "myself" this question again. "No" came up in my head. A thought, that was assumed to be "me" told me it doesn't exist anymore.

Asking again. Still just ordinary stuff. Voice, sounds, etc.. No self.

There has never been one. What would it be, if it was? My name? My story? A feeling? A self cannot be found in any of them anymore.

The past is a memory. A thought. The future has always been a thought. There has never been anything other than right now. But I think Einstein was on to something when he described space-time. Even though this can be viewed as a very sophisticated thought. If I remember correctly, that he sees the self as a kind of optical illusion as well, but who knows what you can trust on the internet anymore, which is so much history of the past?! (which doesn't exist, although the history does..)


Love

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi

. there is almost like a phantom feeling of a self, it actually feels like sensations in the brain, neural pathways that are smoking from the traffic going. Then it calms down. I was listening to music right before this answer, so that might also play a part

Yes when there's a lot of mental activity, thoughts, impressions , connections between ideas , it can seem that this is all going on around the head area. For sure. For me it is also like a phantom. It's also perfectly possible to get"lost" down a rabbit hole of believing in that "self" for a while. Until "waking up" happens . Often at the start of seeing no self people go through a series of hiccoughs where seeing happens , followed by some identification again where doubts arise , followed by seeing all over again. Later on it does tend to stabilise somewhat as it's clear that nothing needs to be done for "seeing" to reappear.


Oops. I realise I'm really tired. I'll stop waffing ;-)

Best wishes

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

There is something relating, resonating with you and what you are saying.

There is also a (subtle) thought saying "you are not there yet, you are not there yet, you will never get this"
Not literally the same words, but something like that.

But I am as close as I can get, and something has more or less given up effort in trying anything.

This seems to be to good to be true - and that is probably what I am most afraid of (to good to be true), that I am actually gonna get "this".

Lets say goodbye to that thought as well

Wish me luck ;-)


Best wishes

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

. There is something relating, resonating with you and what you are saying.

There is also a (subtle) thought saying "you are not there yet, you are not there yet, you will never get this"
Not literally the same words, but something like that.

Who or what could ever "get there"?

What is there to get?

. But I am as close as I can get, and something has more or less given up effort in trying anything.

I'm sorry. Perhaps I've led you to believe that someone gets somewhere?

Ask Heart if it needs to get somewhere?

Love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

Who or what could ever "get there"?

Yes. Good question. Life? I don't know. Again, a thought about the future, which is always here.

What is there to get?

great point.
I have been thinking about "The cosmic joke". Seeing that "this" is more obvious than looking directly at the sun.
These are quotes I have heard from others which is a bit unfair to throw at you, and they are not really about getting anything.
There is nothing to get intellectually or any experience, state, manifestation etc., so I will try to avoid "getting" when talking about this.

I'm sorry. Perhaps I've led you to believe that someone gets somewhere?

No. I might have used those terms. Not you, I think. Although "the gate" sounds like some thing to cross to be honest, even though I understand it as an analogy. No one crosses it. And it is not somewhere :-)

I think you have been very helpful, patient and compassionate in your guiding/pointing. Very grateful for that.


Love

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hi Torgeir

Code: Select all

. I think you have been very helpful, patient and compassionate in your guiding/pointing. Very grateful for that.

Thank you. Well, "I try" so to speak 😊

But it's my pleasure.

. Although "the gate" sounds like some thing to cross to be honest, even though I understand it as an analogy. No one crosses it. And it is not somewhere :-)

That's the difficulty with using any analogy. But at least it's the "Gateless gate".

The Cosmic Joke. Do you notice it?

Love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

The Cosmic Joke. Do you notice it?

It makes sense that when the "self" or "separate entity", which take itself so seriously,
is seen as an illusion, or simply drops away, that it might be a big relief and a feeling similar to that of a "cosmic joke".

I haven't had an eureka, or a big a-ha moment which made me burst into laughter "seeing" the cosmic joke clear as "this".

However, it is very interesting times just being and not worrying about my "self" anymore. There is no doubt that "separate entity" is an illusion, even though it seems like I am lost in the illusion sometimes when believing thoughts, just to notice that there is no self lost in anything. Just thoughts and seemingly "rabbit holes". And things happening.


Love

Torgeir

[JonathanR]

Hello Torgeir

I do apologise for the delay in writing. Life became very busy and my PC failed at the same time. Ha ha!

It is lovely to read your latest post.

. However, it is very interesting times just being and not worrying about my "self" anymore.

Well. That is very interesting.

Is there anything you'd like us to look at together at this stage?


Love

Jon

[KingGong]

Hi

Glad you enjoyed my latest post, and no worries regarding delays. At this stage there is a tendency here to take it easy with the inquiring and looking. There have been some "hard working" months with high motivation to see and look.

I remember listening to Eckhart Tolle talking ironically about the need in "seekers" to solve the deepest mysteries of the universe before getting "enlightened". Maybe there is a "separate entity" hiding in dark matter and dark energy or in another dimension and universe. The "self" is not falsifiable, I cannot prove it doesn't exist, even though I have looked for it "everywhere". The "self" cannot be localized or analyzed. It is not here. Where could it be? I don't know. At best it is a "contracted" energy in the body and there seem to be some repressed and suppressed emotions left here, like in most people. Hopefully, that will take care of itself.
Please let me know if you see there might be some obvious places to do more looking together, or feel an urge to guide me in the next exploring stage. I have enjoyed this conversation and feel it has accelerated and helped me in ways I could not see coming 😊


With love and gratitude

Torgeir