Looking to find a self

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

I am back on the forum and looking. I’m sorry I disappeared.

I downloaded Sam Harris’ Waking Up app and have been doing some gentle looking. I think the problem when I looked last was that I was trying to force it and getting frustrated. I think slow and steady is best.

I have noticed that ‘I’ do not direct attention, thought or movement. Intention also seems to just arise. There is a ‘feeling’ of ‘I’ doing those things but that only arises in consciousness.

Still there is a stubborn belief of an ‘I’ still operating.

I will keep looking. Going to hear from you.

Cheers,
Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

Thanks for you message.

. Still there is a stubborn belief of an ‘I’ still operating

How does this present then, given that it's seen that "I" or a "feeling if I" only arises in consciousness?

Whose consciousness is that?


Love

Jon

[JonathanR]

Hello Harry

I should have said also that I would appreciate it if we could work together posting to each other daily? Do you think that you can do that? I'm prepared to try. I've found that otherwise these conversations can lose traction in a way that doesn't help.

Hoping to hear from you soon

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathon,

So great to hear from you and Happy New Years. I hope you had a restful Christmas period.

Let me look into that. I will get back to you tomorrow and I can post daily as I am not working currently.

With thanks,
Harry

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

How does this present then, given that it's seen that "I" or a "feeling if I" only arises in consciousness?

Whose consciousness is that?

I’ve been looking at this question. I don’t have an answer yet.

I think I’m expecting something to shift. The feeling of the self to drop away.

Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. I think I’m expecting something to shift. The feeling of the self to drop away.

For whom?

There is no self.

How can something "shift" for a not-there someone?

Any word, "shift" included, is a potential mind- trap.

What if there is no "shift" necessary because everything that was needed is already available.?

Would a self need to "drop away" from that?

Love

Jon

[Harry1]

What if there is no "shift" necessary because everything that was needed is already available.?

Would a self need to "drop away" from that

I've been sitting with your points quietly.

I intellectually understand what you are saying. But there hasn't been any seeing of it. I think I might need some more pointers?

[JonathanR]

Those were all pointers.

What sort of pointers do you have in mind?

These ones. were the most direct response to your statement about expecting feeling of self to drop away.

Please feel free to write more about how this expectation shows up. What is the issue with the expectation?

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

Thanks for your response.

I can see now that I should not expect a self to drop away as the answer should be right here in experience.

I guess I’m lacking some clarity as I would expect some seeing to occur of no-self.

The pointers I am alluding to is maybe there are more exercises I could do, to see this?

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. I can see now that I should not expect a self to drop away as the answer should be right here in experience.

It helps a lot not to proceed with expectations but they can tend to persist in the background .

What are expectations really?

Is it fair to say that they are, basically, beliefs about "how things are" or "how things should be"?

In your inquiry here we are looking together to notice what's actually happening moment to moment. That's what many of the exercises you mention are for. To help people to notice what's actually experienced right now. These exercises invariably explore seeing, hearing, taste touch and smell because these are all happening for real and are not just ideas about what's happening.

Feel free to explore immediate sensation and notice how primary / wordless that all is and how thoughts often come at the same time to "say' things about what is going on and "who" is "experiencing" what, how when, where and so on. You can pick on any sense for this.

Notice sensations. It can be very enjoyable.


Love

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

I can see that the mind labels feelings and sensations as me/mine. Or I am hearing. For example the constricted sense felt in the chest that is labelled as myself but is just a feeling in my chest and head.

The mind imagines and assumes there will be a doer in the future that will do things, even though actions arise spontaneously and attention moves around of it’s own volition.

It also creates separation by labelling things my this and that I.e my father and my sister.

Despite this, it still feels like I’m missing something.

Cheers,
Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. I can see that the mind labels feelings and sensations as me/mine.

I can't. It is clear that labeling happens but not at all clear from direct experience that a thing called "the mind" can be found doing this.

. The mind imagines and assumes there will be a doer in the future that will do things, even though actions arise spontaneously and attention moves around of it’s own volition.

Again, imagination and assumptions do happen but what mind? Where is that?

Don't jump to thinking about this. Try to find a mind in direct experience. If there is such an entity, it should be possible to observe one.

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jon,

Thank you for your questions.

In my direct experience, mind is a concept for the process/verb of thinking. A ‘mind’ does not exist by and of itself.

Cheers,
Harry

[JonathanR]

Hi Harry

. In my direct experience, mind is a concept for the process/verb of thinking. A ‘mind’ does not exist by and of itself.

Ok. Good. It's useful to notice this.

. The mind imagines and assumes there will be a doer in the future that will do things, even though actions arise spontaneously and attention moves around of it’s own volition.

In this case let's try taking out the verb "mind' and see how it reads...

"There are assumptions and it is imagined that there will be a doer in the future that will do things, even though actions arise spontaneously and attention moves around of it’s own volition."

See what I did there? Suddenly there isn't a thing imagining and assuming. These still happen but the idea of an entity or "mind" is much less.

It can be a very helpful exercise to write down a few short sentences saying things like "I make toast", "I think about the weather",. "I walk to the corner of the street". It's possible to sit at a table and literally write several such statements as they occur.

Once that's done , take a second piece of paper and rephrase each sentence so that any reference to "I" is removed in such away that the phrase still makes sense. For example:. "Toast is made" or "Making toast".

See how those go.

All the best

Jon

[Harry1]

Hi Jonathon,

That was an interesting experiment. Writing in a journal happened comparing the sentences.

It became more impersonal, an interesting feeling. Even believing in the self arose.

With thanks,
Harry