Let's do this

[ashton]

Hey vince

Can you see the relationship between thoughts and sensations?

Yes. There is some sort of stimuli, and the thought is the reaction to it. Whatever perspective/view is taken up, the sensations that follow coincide with that view that was taken up (story/thought content).

For instance, something happens, and the mind creates a story of anger, and then the sensations that follow are that of anger, or just unpleasant in general.

But when something happens, the mind may paint the picture of happiness, and so, pleasant sensations come about.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

Can you see the relationship between thoughts and sensations?

Yes. There is some sort of stimuli, and the thought is the reaction to it. Whatever perspective/view is taken up, the sensations that follow coincide with that view that was taken up (story/thought content).

Can you see that both thoughts and their responses are conditioned? That they are learned? ..and that they are interpretations?
That they form your unique experience of the world. In fact that they are how you create your version of the world.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hey vince, I gave this question like 3 days since I can tell it is pretty important.

Before I go to answer these questions, I want to say one of the 'obstacles' I run into, regardless of the question.

Usually what happens is, I read your question, and then look at sensations. Usually the first couple times, I recognize what you're pointing to, but it isnt perfectly clear. What I find is, getting to the raw sensations with the intent of finding the answer to a question is fairly easy for the first couple times. But after the first couple times, when I keep trying to look later in the day or following days, I will have an initial impression if you will of what I am looking for, basically like anticipation that a certain sensation will clearly provide the answer. This anticipation comes up, but the sensation may only go through 5% of its process, and then thoughts storm in of like "this is conditioned" or "this is coming from this", bla bla bla. And so, I have a hard time with it because these thoughts come in, and I can no longer look at the actual sensations. The thoughts just take over and the 95% is unseen, because it essentially didnt happen in DE- since the thoughts became the show and butted everything else out.

I know this is all thought story, and I could probably go about framing my perspective differently to where I can try and see in DE that these thoughts "about the question" are conditioned responses in and of themselves. What would you reccomend?

Onto the questions lol

Can you see that both thoughts and their responses are conditioned?

When I get down to the nitty gritty, yes. Like mentioned above, I usually only get down to the nitty gritty for the first couple times I "look". After that, thoughts come in every time I look, as if to convince me that I am noticing what I am meant to be noticing, even though Im not, because the thought is fogging everything up, and nothing can be noticed but the thought itself.

But yes, sometimes I see this. Another sort of trick the mind plays on me is, it will sort of try and create scenarios for whatever questions you have, to "show up". Like in this question you asked- itd be in the back of my head. And so, sometimes, it was as if a thought would come up about it, sort of prompting me to pay attention to an object that knowingly would produce some sort of impulse/sensation in my body- basically trying to fabricate/create a situation, and sell it to myself that whatever occurred was a conditioned event, even though it basically ended up being a planned/coordinated event.

Sorry for saying all of this lol- both of these things just seem sort of like hinderances. Is there a way for me to go about trying to use these hinderances as a way to see clearly/to my benefit?

That they are learned? ..and that they are interpretations?

Yes, i see this especially with bad habits unfortunately. To be honest, I think some sensations are "interpretations", because, over time, there is an obvious link between Sensation A leading to Response B.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash, Phew, almost every time I read one of your posts I am overwhelmed with how complicated you make it.
i know (believe) that it's not intentional. It's just the way you are. ..or to be more accurate, the way you have learned to be.
It's really simple. Your thoughts and your sensations. that is your experiencing is a result of your history (and your DNA)
..or to put it another way, What you experience is actual, but what triggers it is not. What triggers your experiencing is created by your brain.
So anything that you perceive must be held lightly. If it disturbed your equanimity then you are taking it too seriously.

and then thoughts storm in

Yes, this happens. The thing is that they don't need to be believed. Treat them like an ad on TV. Just let them flow past in the background. Don't engage them. ...and most importantly recognize and acknowledge it when they suck you in. (with a laugh) This is how we will break their hold on your life.
All thoughts are a fiction. Some are useful but 95% are not. (unless you use them as entertainment)

Is there a way for me to go about trying to use these hinderances as a way to see clearly/to my benefit?

Yes. Remember the rant I gave on celebrating the recognition that thoughts have sucked you in?
Here it is again...
Laugh with recognition
Ah, great segue here. Here’s a story about conditioning (habit) and how to change it.
In the brain, the neuronal pathways (created by synaptic connections) that are used repeatedly are enhanced. They are made stronger and more efficient by frequent use.
When we become aware that they are no longer useful, there are two ways that they can be decommissioned.
They can be pruned or they can atrophy from lack of use.
Neither of these seem to be able to be consciously controlled, but we can indirectly affect change.
Firstly, observe an intent to change.
Secondly, when awareness of that undesirable happening occurs - laugh. Anything from a loud guffaw to a smile, or even a mental chuckle. This thwarts the completion of the old behavior and robs it of the satisfaction factor. It also floods the body with feel-good hormones.
& thirdly, imagine the new neuronal pathway being established that replaces the undesirable one.
On the second point.. the awareness of the habitual response. You will come to recognize triggers. Usually, some intense emotion will arise in response to a situation.
In a fairly short time, you will come to recognize that a trigger has happened but the response to it is short-circuited by the awareness of it. It simply won't eventuate and you will see the new response (a chuckle) happen instead.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hi vince, I read your reply- read it when you first replied, and again now.

Im still just confused as to what I should be doing. Or how I should be looking at things. This is thought content, but im just not making any headway.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

Im still just confused as to what I should be doing. Or how I should be looking at things.

Ok, just respond to each point I made in my last post.
Don't worry about "should". This is not something that you can make happen. Just be relaxed and give me your reactions to what I have said.

with love

vince

[ashton]

What you experience is actual, but what triggers it is not. What triggers your experiencing is created by your brain.

Just for clarity, I have to make sure I know what you mean by triggers. I think you mean triggers as in thought stories. For instance, I see a person. This is actual experience. But the physical/mental/emotional reaction I experience from said person is based on thought story/previous experiences- which is not actual. Although the actual physical/mental/emotional reactions are in and of themselves actual.

To make sure I know what triggers ARENT: You writing a reply is not considered a trigger getting me to write. Your text on my screen is actual- the thought story provoking me to respond back is the real trigger, not actual.

Me: and then thoughts storm in

You: Yes, this happens. The thing is that they don't need to be believed. Treat them like an ad on TV. Just let them flow past in the background. Don't engage them. ...and most importantly recognize and acknowledge it when they suck you in. (with a laugh)

To be honest, ive found that this takes away from my experience. It sort of makes it feel like I am just going through life, sort of just accepting fate and dismissing all thoughts, which makes for less emotional ups and downs, and just a humdrum reality like I am just standing in a city, just standing.

Firstly, observe an intent to change.
Secondly, when awareness of that undesirable happening occurs - laugh.

Ive tried this on addictions and havent had any luck. Tried it in terms of seeing clearly to no effect

You will come to recognize triggers. Usually, some intense emotion will arise in response to a situation.
In a fairly short time, you will come to recognize that a trigger has happened but the response to it is short-circuited by the awareness of it. It simply won't eventuate and you will see the new response (a chuckle) happen instead.

I guess persistence and self control are key to this

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

Just for clarity, I have to make sure I know what you mean by triggers. I think you mean triggers as in thought stories. For instance, I see a person. This is actual experience. But the physical/mental/emotional reaction I experience from said person is based on thought story/previous experiences- which is not actual. Although the actual physical/mental/emotional reactions are in and of themselves actual.

Yes, you got it. We know that direct experiencing is fleeting and always followed by mental activity. Explanation or description. This is being human. It's not something that we need to change, but we do need to recognize that it is happening when the outcome is maladaptive.

To make sure I know what triggers ARENT: You writing a reply is not considered a trigger getting me to write. Your text on my screen is actual- the thought story provoking me to respond back is the real trigger, not actual.

This is overcomplicating it. We don't need to know what the actual trigger is. We just need to recognize that we have been triggered. Any intense emotion is a likely indication that we have been triggered. The pleasant emotions are probably not going to lead us into maladaptive behavior. (although they could) ..but the unpleasant emotions indicate triggers that cause our suffering.

To be honest, ive found that this takes away from my experience. It sort of makes it feel like I am just going through life, sort of just accepting fate and dismissing all thoughts, which makes for less emotional ups and downs, and just a humdrum reality like I am just standing in a city, just standing.

This is a maladaptive response and one that arises from incomplete involvement. Quite the opposite will occur when you are liberated from the old conditioning.

Ive tried this on addictions and haven't had any luck. Tried it in terms of seeing clearly to no effect

Yes. It's not an instant fix or even a partial fix. Looking at an end goal will almost certainly doom you to failure.
It is not something that you DO. It is something that you invite to happen.
In the present, we are looking to recognize how our habitual patterns of thinking are involved in our difficulties. Jumpin ahead to something that we might call success misses the point. What is happening now is where our attention needs to be.

I guess persistence and self-control are key to this

Persistence is great if it happens. Self-control is a trap to be explored.
Tell me what you think truth is.

vince

[ashton]

Hi Vince,

direct experiencing is fleeting and always followed by mental activity. Explanation or description. This is being human. It's not something that we need to change, but we do need to recognize that it is happening when the outcome is maladaptive.

I think this is where I need to put my focus. Seeing that direct experience is fleeting and always followed by mental activity. This seems like it would have profound implications by recognizing it, so I'll look at this aspect more closely in my life.

This is a maladaptive response and one that arises from incomplete involvement. Quite the opposite will occur when you are liberated from the old conditioning.

Can't wait for this lol :)

Yes. It's not an instant fix or even a partial fix. Looking at an end goal will almost certainly doom you to failure.
It is not something that you DO. It is something that you invite to happen.

I think once the shift happens, this will probably be seen naturally. Otherwise right now for me, this doesn't make much sense / is only an intellectual understanding.

Tell me what you think truth is.

I have no idea the implications, but, simply just recgonizing reality as it is.

Ash

[ashton]

2nd reply:

Tell me what you think truth is.

I think I am beginning to see it unravel/take place in my life a little bit now.

Now that Ive been looking at where suffering takes place, I am experientially witnessing (albeit not a ton, but here and there) that direct experience is just direct experience. Direct experience is sort of just peaceful, even if there may be physical pain. There is just direct experience.

The only time Im able to catch suffering occurring, is when direct experience has ceased, and thoughts took over. Not that there is always suffering when there is thought, but suffering only seems to be occuring where there is thought.

Basically, it seems like emotions, viewpoint, and perspectives arise from thought, not from DE.

Im not necessarily sure what this may have to do with No-self, but, what I am witnessing I think will have big implications once I begin to see it occur over and over again (with repitition/consistency).

Id assume it would make me less into thoughts if you will, being able to see the consequences of 1. engaging in certain thoughts, 2. taking certain thoughts seriously, or 3. allowing certain thoughts to influence certain actions.

Probably making myself more free and able to say "No", I will not let this thought lead to such and such outcome, seeing the intrinsic suffering behind it and how it is separating me from DE, where suffering doesnt exist.

Obviously these are just my thoughts of what the implications of this may be and only thoughts, for I havent experienced any of these in DE. And obviously I just have to keep seeing this occur.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash. Reason for delay in replying is Christmas & family visitors.

Seeing that direct experience is fleeting and always followed by mental activity. This seems like it would have profound implications by recognizing it, so I'll look at this aspect more closely in my life.

How has this gone?

It is something that you invite to happen.

I think once the shift happens, this will probably be seen naturally. Otherwise right now for me, this doesn't make much sense / is only an intellectual understanding.

Yes, it happens more and more.

Tell me what you think truth is.

recgonizing reality as it is.

I have some difficulty with the word "reality". It implies something inherently objective. i would say "actual". ..but yeah. What is true about what is actual, and what is true about what is not actual.
What do you think that I am talking about when I say "what is true about what is not actual"?

Now that Ive been looking at where suffering takes place, I am experientially witnessing (albeit not a ton, but here and there) that direct experience is just direct experience. Direct experience is sort of just peaceful, even if there may be physical pain. There is just direct experience.

Good stuff. This is a portal. Keep going...

suffering only seems to be occurring where there is thought.

Brilliant. Keep checking in experience that this is true.

Basically, it seems like emotions, viewpoint, and perspectives arise from thought, not from DE.

Yes, yes. ..and can you see that this is a unique interpretation of what was previously taken to be actual?

Im not necessarily sure what this may have to do with No-self,

Forget about "no-self". It's misleading. There is no such thing as a no-self.
Look for an actual self. Something inherently separate and controlling.
If you can't find this, then you are left with questions that can't be answered.

what I am witnessing I think will have big implications once I begin to see it occur over and over again (with repitition/consistency).

It might happen with repetition, or something might 'click' and the whole row of dominoes might fall.

Id assume it would make me less into thoughts if you will, being able to see the consequences of 1. engaging in certain thoughts, 2. taking certain thoughts seriously, or 3. allowing certain thoughts to influence certain actions.

Yes. It's a bit easier than this. Just look for useful thoughts. Recognize that they have a certain 'flavor'. Once this is seen, then all other thoughts can be treated as entertainment or mostly ignored. Allowed to flow through without engagement.

Probably making myself more free and able to say "No", I will not let this thought lead to such and such outcome,

No, this won't work. You don't have the kind of control to make this successful.
Simply noticing the nature (useful or not) of thought stories is enough. This noticing changes everything.

Obviously these are just my thoughts of what the implications of this may be and only thoughts, for I havent experienced any of these in DE. And obviously I just have to keep seeing this occur.

Let me know how you go with this.

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hey Vince

Me: Seeing that direct experience is fleeting and always followed by mental activity. This seems like it would have profound implications by recognizing it, so I'll look at this aspect more closely in my life.
You: How has this gone?

I havent focused on this nearly as much as Ive been focusing on when/where suffering occurs. I would have to look more into it, but, Ive really been putting my interest in looking at the suffering.

I have some difficulty with the word "reality". It implies something inherently objective. i would say "actual". ..but yeah. What is true about what is actual, and what is true about what is not actual.
What do you think that I am talking about when I say "what is true about what is not actual"?

First Ill answer what I think you're talking about. I agree, reality seems to imply something inherently objective. Because of this, it makes me reason that when you are talking about what Is or Is Not actual, is whether it is something directly experienced. Basically the tree example. What is not actual is not actual- no tree fell if no tree fell in your DE.

Me: suffering only seems to be occurring where there is thought.
You: Brilliant. Keep checking in experience that this is true.

Ive kept looking, and I keep seeing this. Still not a ton, but I keep seeing it.

Me: Basically, it seems like emotions, viewpoint, and perspectives arise from thought, not from DE.
You: Yes, yes. ..and can you see that this is a unique interpretation of what was previously taken to be actual?

This is interesting now that you say it. Like, before I thought that emotions, viewpoint, and perspectives were a part of direct experience. But they dont at all come or arise from DE, but from thoughts.

Look for an actual self. Something inherently separate and controlling.

This seems like the glue. Once no controller is seen, thoughts will be seen as happening without a controller, and since emotions, viewpoint, and perspectives all arise from thoughts... all of those would be seen as just happening without a controller.

Ill just keep looking.

Just look for useful thoughts. Recognize that they have a certain 'flavor'. Once this is seen, then all other thoughts can be treated as entertainment or mostly ignored. Allowed to flow through without engagement.

I'll give this a shot. Im still probably going to be looking at where the suffering takes place the most though.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

I havent focused on this nearly as much as Ive been focusing on when/where suffering occurs. I would have to look more into it, but, Ive really been putting my interest in looking at the suffering.

There's no need to focus on the suffering.
Certainly, if you can see what provoked it, that is usually enough to dissipate it, but you can also safely presume that if suffering exists then it has a story behind it. Usually the suffering has a repeating storyline. Simply recognizing that you are suffering (not lost in expressing the pain) is enough to change it. Not only to change it but to change how frequently and severely it happens. Focus on the recognizing, not the suffering.

What is not actual is not actual- no tree fell if no tree fell in your DE.

You got it. What is actual is only DE. Which of course, includes responding to that which is not actual.

before I thought that emotions, viewpoint, and perspectives were a part of direct experience. But they dont at all come or arise from DE, but from thoughts.

Emotions and thoughts are directly experienced, but they are provoked by thought. The thought is actual, but what it is about is conceptual. (not actual)

I'll give this a shot. Im still probably going to be looking at where the suffering takes place the most though.

Are thought stories that provoke suffering useful thoughts?

with love

vince

[ashton]

Hey vince

Focus on the recognizing, not the suffering.

Ive been trying to do this, but I dont think i am looking at the right thing. Ill recognize that i am suffering, but i cant find anything more than the fact i am suffering. Im just really not sure what Im supposed to be paying attention to.

Are thought stories that provoke suffering useful thoughts?

No, but they definitely intrude on their own time with a predetermined force or power. Theres no controlling it or stopping it really.

Ash

[vinceschubert]

Good evening Ash,

Ill recognize that i am suffering, but i cant find anything more than the fact i am suffering. Im just really not sure what Im supposed to be paying attention to.

Most people when they suffer are wholly involved in the pain of it. Their very being is an expression of that pain.
If you were to ask them if they were in pain, they would have to step out of the pain momentarily to recognize that they were totally expressing the feeling of pain.
an analogy might be then you look at a painting and get engrossed with what is represented in it, then somebody asks you about the frame that it's in. In order to see that it's a painting, you have to stop being involved with the subject matter and take a wider perspective.
So you need to recognize that you have recognized the fact that you are suffering. Emphasis on the recognition.

Are thought stories that provoke suffering useful thoughts?

No, but...

So, what is the appropriate response to non-useful thought content?

vince