The Gate

Slight caveat enters my mind. My hearing is fine and I'm not neurologically impaired in any way. If I was though, in certain ways, I bet I would be much more aware of the effort - and therefore the effort by a 'me' - of putting together what I hear with say, a story about what I was hearing to come up with a convincing narrative. But yes, that is just speculation

Let me clarify. Our brain's ability to create the "controlled hallucination" that is consciousness is near seamless. We can though get an insight into its work behind the scenes when it gets 'broken' - by an accident say or disease. Then what was apparently effortless needs effort to either work around a problem or even re-establish it's former 'slick' state. It's like we walk into what we think is a large restaurant and notice a crack in a room-length mirror and realise that all the people on the 'other' side of the room are just reflections, they are not real. We're embarrassed and realise that our 'experience' is not always reliable.

Why do I mention this? The premise in these pages - if there is one! - is that experience is all. That just experience will deliver insight into something. But scientific research shows us just how the brain's apparent transparent window onto reality (our 'experience') is, in fact, a construction. An undisclosed and hard to see confirmation of prior assumptions rather than an accurate rendering of reality.

Back to the practical...

I shall focus on that boundary thing...

Hi,

Thank you for that. Yes, I would very much agree that the way we experience things, is not to be taken as something objectively so.

Also, since you’re expressing a bit of a scientific look on things but also are on this no-self thing forum: do you really know if the brain is creating what you’re experiencing? I know that if you hit the head with a hammer, you’ll experience things differently, but that doesn’t mean the one thing creates another. Could it be possible for you that what you’re experiencing isn’t the result of anything at all?

Wishing you well,

Yes would like to see your reply on the boundary thing

So the outside noise is… a clock ticking (I’m up North in my mothers living room). Inside I imagined a couple of noises: a big gong being sounded and (where do these things come from 🤣) Bugs Bunny saying:”that’s all folks”.
My experience was that the internals looks little more effort to realise them. Not to think of them but to experience them. The clock was effortless. That said, as I typed this response, I became unaware of it so… given it’s level had not changed, even hearing that is clearly involves effort.
The outside noise feels more real. The inside, more of a memory : clear but not as vivid. Moving between the two therefore seems like moving between a more or thought and a real thing.

Inside I imagined a couple of noises: a big gong being sounded and (where do these things come from 🤣) Bugs Bunny saying:”that’s all folks”.

Ha. And yes, where do these things all come from indeed. Isn't it actually true for every single thought that we don't know (within the idea that it comes from anywhere) where it comes from?

My experience was that the internals looks little more effort to realise them. Not to think of them but to experience them. The clock was effortless. That said, as I typed this response, I became unaware of it so… given it’s level had not changed, even hearing that is clearly involves effort.
The outside noise feels more real. The inside, more of a memory : clear but not as vivid. Moving between the two therefore seems like moving between a more or thought and a real thing.

Okay nice. But how about the boundary? If you move your attention between the two, the made up sound in your mind and the outside sound, can you really find anything you would call a boundary? Or could it be there there isn't one, and that it is only the mind that says there is a boundary that would make one thing inside and something else outside? Maybe it's all the same space in which the looking occurs?

So. After much looking I can find no boundary. There is the perception of the sound being outside and that of inside. There is no boundary. That is my experience. Period.


What do I think is happening? I believe, the perception of externality (distance, direction) is caused by brain interpretation based on outside stimulus.

Now some folks will say: "well, that's a small lump of grey matter delivering up a more or less accurate representation of the world based on senory input. What a blood marvel!". Others, that this experience is simply a "controlled hallucination" (see Anil Seth, Donald Hoffman et al) and says nothing about what the world is like but lots about our brains.

I find myself back to doubts I've had from the start. I need to know that the process here leads to a shift in identification of my experience with a fictitious self. As fascinated as I am by the light that neuroscience can throw on the subject, why would focusing on boundaries help with the primary mission? Yes, I'm one of those folks who needs to have at least some idea that the process leads to the destination... can you say more? or am I perhaps missing the point with the practical exercises...?

J

Re-reading the above... I realise that it might come across as me being frustrated with the process or even you. That is not the case. If there's any frustration it's mine with me. Whatever that is 😂

Flores

Hi! Everything ok with you?

J x

Hi J,

I’m so sorry, I wouldn’t have thought you would have answered that long ago. I’m in a center now, and it’s quite nice but I really have to go to a place here for internet. I’m very sorry.

I find myself back to doubts I've had from the start. I need to know that the process here leads to a shift in identification of my experience with a fictitious self. As fascinated as I am by the light that neuroscience can throw on the subject, why would focusing on boundaries help with the primary mission? Yes, I'm one of those folks who needs to have at least some idea that the process leads to the destination... can you say more? or am I perhaps missing the point with the practical exercises...?

okay, thank you for sharing that. I’ll reply to this in a way that resonates with me quite strongly: yes, this process does release resistance/identification. Some people go smoothly through this, and for others this process involves more struggle. However, I strongly resonate with doing whatever feels best to you/following what attracts you. Your message to me sounds like you might be doing this, not because you feel drawn to it, but like you’re trying to make it happen while you might rather do something else. I really mean this, being clear on that there is no self, doesn’t improve your life that much for most people. Perhaps if you follow the flow of life, this process can come up for you in a right time where it really is a part of a sort of tipping point, whereas if you’re trying to make it happen/pushing it, you might struggle with it more and be more disappointed with the results. I’ve come to stand quite strong in doing whatever feels best to you/relaxing into what you already are as a way to go through life. What I think you’re really after, is being more your natural self/without resistance. For that doing what feels best to you, not pushing life, going with the flow more, you will thus shift more back into what you already are. Pushing things is resistance, and choosing to push/trying to make it happen thus perpetuates it. If you talk about your primary mission, I resonate with that would be to just be you, relaxing more and more deeply into what you already are. Just wanted to express that.

So. After much looking I can find no boundary. There is the perception of the sound being outside and that of inside. There is no boundary. That is my experience. Period.

wow, that’s a clear statement. Well, that translate to saying there isn’t an in or outside to your experience, doesn’t it? So you resonate with that what you’re reading, hearing, is just as much ‘inside’ you as anything else in your experience?

Sorry, really have to go now, might write more later.

Wishing you well

Flores

Phew! Thought I'd been sacked 😢 No need to apologise at all. Good that you're back.

Just wanted to express that.

all good and insightful of you. I do think that's what's happening.

Discussed this sort of thing only this weekend as I'm staying with a couple of old friends who are well versed in LU.

Well, that translate to saying there isn’t an in or outside to your experience, doesn’t it?

Well ... I mean I can tell the difference. If a doorbell goes I assume it's a visitor and not, say, the memory of one from yesterday...

So you resonate with that what you’re reading, hearing, is just as much ‘inside’ you as anything else in your experience?

Yes, in a sense. By which I mean, whatever it's source I "believe" it's experienced by "my" mind.... (ohh those slippery quotes again 😉)

J

Hi J,

Phew! Thought I'd been sacked 😢 No need to apologise at all. Good that you're back.

good to hear

I’ve thought about seeing if there is another guide who might want to take over. For one it’s less convenient to reply for me now than it used to be and my thoughts are on different matters too. Also, it seems like the process involves some struggle and maybe with another guide that works differently it would go much easier for you. What do you think of that? There are also some people that video guide, I can’t do that now because it takes too much of my internet bundel.

Looking forward hearing from you,
Floris

Flores,

I’d be open to that and I can certainly understand if you can’t give it the attention you’d like… my background is Buddhist if that’s relevant having spent a long time engaged with Triratna if you’ve heard of that outfit…
J

Hi J,

Good news! I asked and Vince would like to take over. Vince is great and is one of the 2 people I thought about when thinking what I felt would work well with you.

No, I haven’t heard of Triratna before. So.. that will be it for me now. Vince will respond in this thread. I wish you all the best and thank you very much for your willingness, honesty and humor from time to time:-)

I might be looking at the thread if you don’t mind from time to time, to see how things go.

Be well!
Floris

Hi J, vince here. i'd like to start fresh, so I won't read what you have already posted. (at this stage)
Let's start with this; Talk about what these mean to you then find examples in experience for each of them; Decision, intention, free will, choice, control, and responsibility.

vince

Vince,

Hi. And thanks in advance for your time and patience.

I’ll have a think and reply later if that’s ok.

Jim

Decision, intention, free will, choice, control, and responsibility.

Decision.
A choice. Sometimes automatic and instant, sometimes deliberated over days or weeks. The point when the sense of a self is most apparent as it can involve judgement, reason, emotion etc but some 'one' has to put all this in the blender and decide not only the path but decide that whatever the outcome it can be 'owned'.
Examples? This can be something as life-changing as "Yes, I'm gonna adopt these children" or as trivial as "I'm gonna eat the second half of that doughnut".

Intention

The result of a decision (see above 😉). The executive branch of thinking. Example: Having decided to run tomorrow morning, it's my intention to get up at 8am.

free will

Oooo. A biggy. Argued about for centuries and still going. Free will is what I think/feel I'm exercising when I'm deciding (see above). However, it's far from unqualified (i.e. always free). I mean, I can decide to simply stay in bed or eat the rest of that doughnut but are either freely chosen? I have big doubts. But who wants to feel like an automaton? I make efforts to feel as free as possible mindful that the universe is probably laughing at me.

choice

what's presented to me as alternatives, either by me, others or the world. Not sure examples would help here...

control

the degree to which I can affect outcomes from how I think or feel about something right out to external events. I think I have more control than I do. Also less. Again, not sure if examples would be illuminating but if someone pushes in front of me in traffic I'm responsible for how I respond but see "free will" above. If my daughter says she's going to do x (which I don't think is wise) then I might have some control over it e.g. she needs money but sometimes not: her friend might give her the money...

responsibility

This is core, to me at least. "Acquiring" it is the path from childhood to adulthood. Without personal responsibility, very little of what makes human society (for which read everything from friendship, families, communities and entire nation-states) work, bearable, awe-inspiring... And - on topic - without self, where is responsibility?

But just because we need a useful fiction to lubricate something doesn't make it so, right?

Examples:
I'm responsible for all sorts of things like feeding the dog when my wife doesn't/can't; keeping myself healthy; picking my daughter up from work etc etc. responsibilities are the networks that bind us together and I use the word advisedly.