Being selfless self

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem

awareness = being aware = knowing. I call it "knowing principle". Right now there is awareness but it is not you, it is not Lisa.
You said "if" I am awareness ... Can I conclude that you are not sure about that ?

I am not sure that I am awareness. I experience being aware as the most immediate experience.

What are you for sure, without a doubt ? Look at this "I" you use all the time.

I know that thoughts just arise and the same with feelings. I know I am alive. I know I perceive sensations. I am not certain about anything else.

Do you mean that awareness is born ? or an "I" was born ?

Nothing was born apart from the body arriving.

You said that you don't know if a separate self believes anything. Let"s analyze the case :

What is a separate self in your own words ? After having written your answer, you can easily see if it can do something or believe anything.

A separate self is the idea that 'I' am in charge of my life, that I can control things, make things happen, make choices, that I have a name and a body and that I am born and die at certain times.

When I ask " have you seen through the illusion of a separate self ?", what are you expecting to see ?

I am not expecting to see anything. I might experience being here differently but I really do not know.

Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

I read again the whole thread, my questions and your answers. You understand all what is about here. But you want more understanding instead of looking. Now there are two possibilities :

Even you have seen that there is no separate self in any shape or form in direct experience
Even you have seen a separate self in direct experience then describe its shape, its form for me.

This is so simple. No going to thoughts, no going to beliefs. Give a look at what is here now and give your answer.

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem,

I am not sure if I can tell you anything different from what I have told you before. I am not sure if I have seen that there is no separate self in any shape or form from direct experience. I have told you that I know that the thoughts come and go of their own accord and so do feelings. I perceive sensations. I don't know if what I have just told you means there is no separate self.

I don't think I can describe a separate self either. Based on thoughts and feelings just arising on their own, there is no self that thinks or feels these things. Something perceives the sensations but I cannot say what that is.

Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

I am not sure if I can tell you anything different from what I have told you before. I am not sure if I have seen that there is no separate self in any shape or form from direct experience.

There are two cases here, you observe what is here now with your five senses (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching) :

Case 1 : you observe a self, a you, then describe it for me
Case 2 : you don’t observe a self, a you, then write down your conclusion about it

I don't think I can describe a separate self either. Based on thoughts and feelings just arising on their own, there is no self that thinks or feels these things.

Good

Something perceives the sensations but I cannot say what that is.

Look at this “something” : does it have a weight ? Is it perceivable through the five senses ? is it a thought ? is it a sensation ?

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem,

Happy New Year and I'm sorry for the very delayed reply. I have had some challenges with the covid lockdown in the UK and my accommodation and therefore have not been able to focus on much else over the last few weeks.

There are two cases here, you observe what is here now with your five senses (seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, touching) :

Case 1 : you observe a self, a you, then describe it for me
Case 2 : you don’t observe a self, a you, then write down your conclusion about it

The problem I have with this exercise is that I do not observe a self using the five senses. However, I have no conclusions about not having a self. I cannot make any conclusions about what I do not understand.

Look at this “something” : does it have a weight ? Is it perceivable through the five senses ? is it a thought ? is it a sensation ?

The knowing perceives sensations. It has no weight. The knowing is not perceived through the five senses. The knowing is not a thought or a sensation.

Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

Happy New Year and I'm sorry for the very delayed reply. I have had some challenges with the covid lockdown in the UK and my accommodation and therefore have not been able to focus on much else over the last few weeks.

You are welcome, happy new year, health, happiness and wealth.

The problem I have with this exercise is that I do not observe a self using the five senses. However, I have no conclusions about not having a self. I cannot make any conclusions about what I do not understand.

OK. When you don't know something with your five senses, even it does not exist, even it exists as a thought. What is this "I" which has no conclusion about not having a self ? What is this "I" which wants to understand ? Look.

The knowing perceives sensations. It has no weight. The knowing is not perceived through the five senses. The knowing is not a thought or a sensation.

Yes. Is the knowing, you ? Is the knowing a separate self ? Does the knowing need a separate self ?

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem,

OK. When you don't know something with your five senses, even it does not exist, even it exists as a thought. What is this "I" which has no conclusion about not having a self ? What is this "I" which wants to understand ? Look.

The thing that has no conclusions and wants to understand is the thoughts or the mind that is trying to make sense.

Yes. Is the knowing, you ? Is the knowing a separate self ? Does the knowing need a separate self ?

The knowing seems to come from a deeper quiet space. it doesn't feel like it is 'separate' or 'out there' somewhere. The knowing doesn't need anything. It feels like the ground from which awareness arises. The knowing doesn't need to understand anything.

Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

The thing that has no conclusions and wants to understand is the thoughts or the mind that is trying to make sense.

This answer did not come through looking at direct experience. You need to look at "you", "I" in direct experience.

Is the knowing, you ? Is the knowing a separate self ? Does the knowing need a separate self ?

Once again, give your answers after having looked for a half day at direct experience.

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem,

Thank you for your email. I am not sure where these emails are found on this platform so I was not sure how to reply to it. I see that it appears as a text in my gmail so I have posted my reply here.

I do not really understand what you mean when you say look with the 5 senses as a way to answer your questions. The challenge I have is making sense of the direct experience to generate an answer to your questions. I am aware of my perceptions via the 5 senses but once I start to try and answer the question, I have to interpret the experience.

Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

I do not really understand what you mean when you say look with the 5 senses as a way to answer your questions. The challenge I have is making sense of the direct experience to generate an answer to your questions. I am aware of my perceptions via the 5 senses but once I start to try and answer the question, I have to interpret the experience.

It is a description of what is going on, so simple. Example : description of a task "washing dishes". hands are operating. Hearing the sounds of the dishes and water. Sensations of warmth (if water is warm) or freshness (if water is cold). Do you see an I, a you, a self doing things ? This is how to look. Sure words are used to express what is seen, what is heard, etc, ...


Best wishes

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem

Is the knowing, you ? Is the knowing a separate self ? Does the knowing need a separate self ?

What I sense through direct experience doesn't tell me 'what' the knowing is. It only tells me what the perceptions and sensations are and that they are being perceived or sensed. It feels seamless from the knower but that is not something I have gained through the 5 senses. I do not really understand what is meant by a separate self. I do not experience '2' sets of knowing. There seems to be one experience or process of knowing where the knower's lens is constant and does not appear to change the knowing context from one moment to another.

Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

What I sense through direct experience doesn't tell me 'what' the knowing is. It only tells me what the perceptions and sensations are and that they are being perceived or sensed.

Yes.

It feels seamless from the knower but that is not something I have gained through the 5 senses.

There is a "processus" of knowing but there is no knower. Can you find a knower outside thoughts ? Is there a seer outside thoughts ? Is there a doer outside thoughts ? You can see the truth of the absence of a knower, nor a seer nor a doer when you look. That's why I gave the example of washing dishes. It is an evidence. Look like looking for a tiger under your table. There are only two ways : you see it or you don't see it.

I

do not really understand what is meant by a separate self. I do not experience '2' sets of knowing. There seems to be one experience or process of knowing where the knower's lens is constant and does not appear to change the knowing context from one moment to another.

A separate self is a belief about existence of Lisa separated from the whole. Yes there is only one process of knowing but there is no knower. When you look for a separate self, for Lisa, for you, you don't find them in direct experience, what does it mean for you ? Is Lisa still existing as a separate entity or is it a mental construct ?

I think that you understand the non existence of a separate self but you are leaning on thoughts instead of what you see in direct experience. In two words, this knowing principle or process, this aliveness, is not you, is not Lisa. It is universal, impersonal, it knows itself, it lives itself.

Warissem

[summerrain]

Thank you Warissem.

There is a "processus" of knowing but there is no knower. Can you find a knower outside thoughts ? Is there a seer outside thoughts ? Is there a doer outside thoughts ? You can see the truth of the absence of a knower, nor a seer nor a doer when you look. That's why I gave the example of washing dishes. It is an evidence. Look like looking for a tiger under your table. There are only two ways : you see it or you don't see it.

Yes I see that there is a process of knowing and not a separate entity that knows. The knowing precedes thoughts and is just there The knowing doesnt' think. I cannot see a separate person that thinks or knows or sees.

A separate self is a belief about existence of Lisa separated from the whole. Yes there is only one process of knowing but there is no knower. When you look for a separate self, for Lisa, for you, you don't find them in direct experience, what does it mean for you ? Is Lisa still existing as a separate entity or is it a mental construct ?

yes I do understand that I do not find a separate self that is Lisa. Lisa is a mental construct developed over time.

I think that you understand the non existence of a separate self but you are leaning on thoughts instead of what you see in direct experience. In two words, this knowing principle or process, this aliveness, is not you, is not Lisa. It is universal, impersonal, it knows itself, it lives itself.

Yes I understand this. It was when you asked me to describe in detail (some time ago) how this all works that I do not know what the answers are.

Lisa

[warissem]

Hi Lisa

Is there still a doubt about the absence of a separate self, no you in any shape or form? It was never here and it will never be ?
If there is some need of clarity, feel free to expose it here.

Best wishes

Warissem

[summerrain]

Hi Warissem,

I think it is clear now that there is no separate self. Are you able to tell me how this whole thing works? Also, I am not sure what awareness is - where does that fit into this?

I do not feel that this is a brand new realisation on my part. However, I am not sure that it has yet had any significant changing impact on my life. Can you tell me how having no separate self impacts the way you live your life. I would like to know how to live this phenomenon more fully.

Thank you.
Lisa