So tired of the search! Please help me find the Truth

[Vivien]

Hi Ivan,

Thank you for your responses. I can see that you really try to look and not just think about the answers. Very good. Just keep going :)

These are all words that point to some mental concept, that cannot be directly experienced, only if I conceptualise.
For example weather - I feel cold air on my skin, but to say "the weather is cold" is not direct experience.
Disappointment - Something happens not the way I expected and I feel contraction in the body, the mind interprets it as "disappointment" based on the the story of expectations and reality which dont match. Very similar feeling can be interpreted as "excitement" or "happiness" if the story was that they matched.

Nice observations :)

I really want to start seeing the difference between direct seeing and thought interpretation. Maybe I do see it, but direct experience seems so simple and "light" that I can barely talk about it.

Exactly. Reality is very simple and ordinary. But thought / mind is unhappy about this. Thought complicates the uncomplicated. ADDS something that is not actually there!

This place feels closest to the word "me". Doubt appears about the last sentence - is it direct experience or is it interpretation based on my extensive spiritual education?

Well, this is an interpretation.

From this place I see even the mental construct of "me', so it must be more "me' than what I normally call "me"?

Let’s investigate another possibility.

What if there is no more ‘me’ or ‘other me’ that sees the ‘normal me’…. But rather there is just the seeing of the habitual thoughts and perceptions that is MISTAKEN FOR a ‘me’?

What if there is no ‘me’ whatsoever? No seer?

What if life is, but no ‘me’ to identify with it and call it ‘myself’?

6.This is the hardest. I always see thought as an interpretation of direct experience, never the direct experience itself. Except if I look from 'that inner space", that I've talked about.

What if just thoughts can be looked at from a ‘distance’…. But they are not seen by another ‘me’? Rather just seen, but without a seer? Just like rain is raining without a rainer? Or a wind is blowing without a blower?

Love,
Vivien

[IstinSkiat]

Hi Vivien,
Thank you for the encouragement, its really needed and appreciated right now! Truth feels closer and closer, habit stands on its way, like a giant wall, but then again, habit is also seen, so to think habit is the big obstacle is just that - only a thought, not reality, is that correct?

What if there is no more ‘me’ or ‘other me’ that sees the ‘normal me’…. But rather there is just the seeing of the habitual thoughts and perceptions that is MISTAKEN FOR a ‘me’?

What if there is no ‘me’ whatsoever? No seer?

What if life is, but no ‘me’ to identify with it and call it ‘myself’?

Reading this something happened in the body. It was strong feeling that went through the entire body right to the toes. After that calming of the body was felt, it was very nice, but lasted for a second or two and mind started to panic and took full control and all was over.
So maybe we have to prepare the mind so it dont panic everytime truth is seen? Is this correct, or is this still the mind just trying to make more time?

What if just thoughts can be looked at from a ‘distance’…. But they are not seen by another ‘me’? Rather just seen, but without a seer? Just like rain is raining without a rainer? Or a wind is blowing without a blower?

So lets investigate. I see that thoughts can be looked from a distance. In fact any experience can be looked from a distance. But the assumption that there MUST be someone/something that is the final seer is present here. This assumption is also seen. From who/what? From the final final seer? Then it feels like going in a loop, I feel strong contrsction in my forehead and I quit the investigation.

Whit so much love and gratitude,
Ivan

[Vivien]

Hi Ivan,

You replied too quickly. Please don’t do that, for your own sake. Replying quickly is a way to avoid looking at things deeply. So actually you are depriving yourself to really see something which wasn’t clear before.

You expressed fear, so this could be a reason for a quick reply.

So let’s have a closer look at this fear. It is here to protect. Can you see that? It’s here to keep something safe from something.

Can you look behind the fear and see what is there that needs this protection?

And protection from what exactly?

Does that protection (as a fear response) help?

What is it that is being resisted?

Is that resistance needed?

What do you get from this protection?

Truth feels closer and closer, habit stands on its way, like a giant wall, but then again, habit is also seen, so to think habit is the big obstacle is just that - only a thought, not reality, is that correct?

A habit is nothing serious. Yes, there are habitual thoughts and way of thinking, but in themselves they are totally innocent. You just have to see them for what they are. Just habitual pattern, nothing serious.

But if you fight habits, with that fighting you unconsciously claim that they are bad, they are serious, threatening things. So you make an enemy out of them. So don't fight.

Just notice them, and let them be. It's all about noticing and letting things be.

Vivien

[IstinSkiat]

So FEAR...for the last few days I was inverting it. I came to the conclusion it is everywhere. This almost constant feeling of contraction just above my bellybutton(I've talked about it previously) is fear. I do most things out of fear or with fear. Thats why I find it very hard to say what I really like or love to do. I do what fear tells me to do.
I would love to be able to just lay and rest even for a moment, but I cant, fear is constant. Most of the times I cant even name what causes it.

Can you look behind the fear and see what is there that needs this protection?

Its protecting the sense of self, the ego. Since I still identify as that, fear is controlling me. If I see directly the illusion of the ego, I would see fear is protecting illusion, vapour... And it would become useless. I see all this, but only as a concept. Sometimes when I read nondual text(Like your previous posts) I see directly the truth and fear goes away. But as I explained in my last post, a few moments later I panic and illusion becomes real again.

And protection from what exactly?

From seeing the truth, from its demolition.

Does that protection (as a fear response) help?

It helps itself. Its persistence it the future.
Direct experience - just a feeling in the body, in normal circumstances - the most intensive of all, but nevertheless just a feeling.

What is it that is being resisted?

Seeing the truth I guess. loosing control. If Ivan is no more the king, who would take control?

Is that resistance needed?

Ivan, Ego, Fear says it is needed.

What do you get from this protection?

Control, or the illusion of it. And awful contraction. In the body and in the mind. I cant think, let alone do what I really want and love.

But if you fight habits, with that fighting you unconsciously claim that they are bad, they are serious, threatening things. So you make an enemy out of them. So don't fight.

Just notice them, and let them be. It's all about noticing and letting things be.

Yes, I see this is the way to go for fear also. But how? I notice them, but how to let them be?

[Vivien]

Hi Ivan,

Ivan, Ego, Fear says it is needed.

But what if you are NOT Ivan, NOT the ego?
What if you are not a person at all?
What if no fear is applicable to you, since fear is just based on the thought system, called ego, which you have nothing to do with?

Just because the ego / Ivan is not real, doesn’t actually exist in reality, it doesn’t mean that I don’t exist….

I exist, but not as a person, not as a ego…. but as…. Well, we cannot say ‘as what’. We can only say that I exist. Everything else would be just more speculation, more fantasy.

So how to prove that these statements are true? Well, you can see it for yourself.

Aren’t you aware of Ivan?
Aren’t you aware of ego thoughts?
Aren’t you aware of all personal thoughts?

How could you be something that you are aware of?
That’s not possible.

If I can see it, it cannot be me.
Since I’m that which ‘sees’ it. Notices it. Being aware of it.

This is the way out of fearful thoughts.

I’m aware of the fearful thoughts, so they cannot be me. Can you see that?

When there is a sensation in the belly area called ‘fear’, aren’t you aware of it?

Is that sensation aware of you? Or do are aware of it?

So, how could it be you…. It cannot…. It’s just an experience of a sensation that you are noticing. That’s all.
Freedom lies in this.

Vivien

[IstinSkiat]

Hi, Vivien

But what if you are NOT Ivan, NOT the ego?
What if you are not a person at all?
What if no fear is applicable to you, since fear is just based on the thought system, called ego, which you have nothing to do with?

Yes, I see all of this. I see how identification works. A fearful thought comes, millisecond later sensation in the belly, millisecond after that something tries to identify with the sensation, to make it "My" sensation and make a story out of it. If I am very vigilant I can prevent this from happening. And then sensation stays for a short while and vanishes, its peaceful again.
Vivien, will there come a moment when vigilance will not be needed? Now I must be very concentrated and vigilant to stay as "the looker" , to stay unidentified. Otherwise identification happens with a snap of a finger, unnoticed. And I can see you asking the question "But see who must stay vigilant, isnt he also seen?" And yes he is, so its not me, but I think you can see what I mean. Do I have to exercises until it becomes more natural? Or will it happen with a sudden shift in perception?

[Vivien]

Hi Ivan,

Vivien, will there come a moment when vigilance will not be needed? Now I must be very concentrated and vigilant to stay as "the looker" , to stay unidentified. Otherwise identification happens with a snap of a finger, unnoticed. And I can see you asking the question "But see who must stay vigilant, isnt he also seen?" And yes he is, so its not me, but I think you can see what I mean. Do I have to exercises until it becomes more natural? Or will it happen with a sudden shift in perception?

Well, vigilance is needed as long as it hasn’t become automatic, and happening on its own 24/7. So no, there are no shortcuts.

But, this looker you try to identify with still holds personal material. I mean it is still personalized, isn’t it?

It’s still feels like that there is doership in it…. and also, I’m doing it because I don’t like the story of fear and the sensations that come with them, right?

So that looker, is still believed to be a personalized self, a separate entity WHOM things can happen TO, and needs protection. Isn’t it?

Vivien

[IstinSkiat]

Hi Vivien

But, this looker you try to identify with still holds personal material. I mean it is still personalized, isn’t it?

Well I have investigated that even before you asked. To talk about it, I have to personalize it somehow. But then again, it is aware of that, it is aware of its own personalisation, so... When I try to talk about it is gets very philosophical... It feels impossible to avoid that.

It’s still feels like that there is doership in it…. and also, I’m doing it because I don’t like the story of fear and the sensations that come with them, right?

Yes, motivation to be vigilante comes from the feeling of peace when I am.
But is there another possibility? All my life I have done one thing in order to accomplish another. Thats rational living and its the only way of living I know. So my nondual search, as irrational as it is, after all is an attempt to find peace, everlasting peace no matter the circumstances.

So that looker, is still believed to be a personalized self, a separate entity WHOM things can happen TO, and needs protection. Isn’t it?

Yes and no. Yes because it feels like me, although the ULTIMATE ME. An NO because it doesn't need protection and nothing can happen to it. All happenings are in the field of its awareness. Of MY awareness. Like the dreamer and the dream. Fire in my dream cannot hurt me(although in the dream I can be afraid it can)
I'm the dreamer of this dream called "living on planet earth" and nothing here can hurt me. But it only feels like it can.
Still there is a feeling that this "me" lives in the head. Although the head is just a part of the dream. Oh my, so simple and at the same time so complicated. And again it becomes so philosophical. And I know that philosophy is just mental masturbation.

[Vivien]

Hi Ivan,

But then again, it is aware of that, it is aware of its own personalisation, so...

Well, just notice that ‘personalization’ is being attributed to whatever is aware, right now. That’s still a hiding place for a separate self.

But is there another possibility? All my life I have done one thing in order to accomplish another. Thats rational living and its the only way of living I know. So my nondual search, as irrational as it is, after all is an attempt to find peace, everlasting peace no matter the circumstances.

Yes, I hear you. We all want peace.

But just notice, wanting peace is there because it is believed that there is a ME right here, right now, who is NOT in peace.

That peace is happening TO someone. That is ME!!! ME, me, me!!!! I want peace!!! – screams the me.

So look for the ‘thing’ here, right now that is NOT in peace…. Or if there is peace right now, then look for the one that is IN peace. Where is that one?

What does peace or the lack of it happen TO?

I'm the dreamer of this dream

Well… this is another hiding place for the personal self… calling itself the dreamer.

Is there a rainer of rain?
A blower of winds?
A grower of trees?
Waver of waves?
Rotator of the Earth?

Is there an ACTUAL DREAMER of the dream….. Or there is only the dream, without anyone or anything dreaming it?

Vivien

[IstinSkiat]

Hi Vivien,

But just notice, wanting peace is there because it is believed that there is a ME right here, right now, who is NOT in peace.

That peace is happening TO someone. That is ME!!! ME, me, me!!!! I want peace!!! – screams the me.

Yes, I see that. I see it as a child that screams to get something to the point it doesn't remember why it wants it, but nevertheless it wants it so bad. Funny:)

So look for the ‘thing’ here, right now that is NOT in peace…. Or if there is peace right now, then look for the one that is IN peace. Where is that one?

What does peace or the lack of it happen TO?

Well, I'm sitting in front of this question for days now and I can't find an answer. If it happens to somebody at all, its me, who else? The question is does it happen to somebody at all? Peace is here. I'm aware of it, so I assume it happens to me. But I can see its just an assumption.

Is there a rainer of rain?
A blower of winds?
A grower of trees?
Waver of waves?
Rotator of the Earth?

Is there an ACTUAL DREAMER of the dream….. Or there is only the dream, without anyone or anything dreaming it?

My practically thinking mind can't grasp that. I'm here, I'm sure of it, because if I wasn't here nothing would be here, if there is a dream, there must be a dreamer. I see the dreamer is not Ivan, he is part of the dream. But who am I? Since I exist I must be someone/something, right?

[Vivien]

Hi Ivan,

Well, I'm sitting in front of this question for days now and I can't find an answer. If it happens to somebody at all, its me, who else? The question is does it happen to somebody at all? Peace is here. I'm aware of it, so I assume it happens to me. But I can see its just an assumption.

When you say “It happens to me” – what do you refer to with the word ‘me’?

WHERE is the ‘me’ that it happens to?
Show it to me.

My practically thinking mind can't grasp that. I'm here, I'm sure of it, because if I wasn't here nothing would be here, if there is a dream, there must be a dreamer. I see the dreamer is not Ivan, he is part of the dream. But who am I? Since I exist I must be someone/something, right?

With thinking, you will never get this. This is beyond the thinking mind. Thinking is based on separation. A subject + an object. A dream + a dreamer. The known + a knower.

Actually, this is exactly how the appearance of separation is created… by language!
Language is dualistic. Thinking is language. Therefore, thinking is creating duality (seemingly).
Duality means that there are two things there…. Not just one…. Dream + dreamer…. Known + knowing.

In order to see that this duality is not real, only ever implied by language / thoughts, you have to put aside your intellect.

You cannot use the same tool, which has been creating the illusion in the first place.

You have to go to experience and LOOK and SEE how it actually IS. And not what thoughts say how it is.

There is just ONE thing going on, and only language / thought slices it up into seemingly two separate phenomena: known and a knower. Dream and a dreamer. In reality there is no two.

So, let’s look at that.

There is existence, yes.
There is the dream, yes.

But is there an individual having an existence? Where?

Is there an individual having a dream? Where?

There is life. Yes. But is there someone living life?
Is there someone separate from life having it? Or there is just life?

Vivien

[IstinSkiat]

When you say “It happens to me” – what do you refer to with the word ‘me’?

WHERE is the ‘me’ that it happens to?
Show it to me.

Well its the one who is writing this posts. Its the one who can see the breathing in the body happens by itself most of the time, but if I(Me) decide I can make it go much faster, or stop it, at least for a minute or so. Its the one that can decide and make this body's left hand to go up or down. And the hand obeys.
The illusion here is strong, isn't it?

In order to see that this duality is not real, only ever implied by language / thoughts, you have to put aside your intellect.

It seems here that all is intellect, I can see that intellect is a layer on top of reality, fiction, but I can't find a way to put that layer off. And it's precisely because I try to put it off by using it itself. I see its fool's errand. Hopeless. But I can't find another way, I don't know how to do anything without using my intellect. I can't write a word here without it. I wouldn't be able to open this forum and read your answers...

But is there an individual having an existence? Where?

There is this individual only in the existence itself. All this is seen from somewhere, but this "Somewhere" is non-existing. If it was existing, it would be seen from somewhere else, which must be non-existing. So one can never say "There it is" The same with "the dreamer" He only can exist in the dream, as a part of the dream.
But all the above is my "Philosophy", all comes from my intellect again. How could I do a damn thing without it?

[IstinSkiat]

There is life. Yes. But is there someone living life?
Is there someone separate from life having it? Or there is just life?

By implication the one "having" life must be outside of life. As far as I know, there is nothing outside of life. So it must be Noone having life. And even that's some kind of personalisation. I get that perfectly and at the same time I don't get it at all. I get it as a story, but can't get is as direct experience.

[Vivien]

Hi Ivan,

Well its the one who is writing this posts. Its the one who can see the breathing in the body happens by itself most of the time, but if I(Me) decide I can make it go much faster, or stop it, at least for a minute or so. Its the one that can decide and make this body's left hand to go up or down. And the hand obeys.
The illusion here is strong, isn't it?

I wouldn’t say that the illusion is strong but the BELIEF in it.

So there is belief that there is a doer, and I am that. So we are going to start investigate this idea. In the following days/weeks, I’m going to give you series of exercises about this topic. Your job is to do them very attentively MANY TIMES EACH. Makes sure you don’t just do them once or a few times, but repeat them more than 10 times before replying. It’s all about repetition.

Here is the first exercise for you.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a self/me or anything that is doing the choosing?

Is there a me/I controlling and moving the hand?
Is there a ‘I’ controlling which hand to raise?
Is there a controller? Where?

How is the decision made?
Is the decision made by an I/self?
Is there a decision maker? Where?

Repeat this many times before replying.

Vivien

[IstinSkiat]

Hi Viven,
So during the weekend I was home, and I tried to really dig deep into meditation and direct experience. There seems to be two layers here. One is the usual everyday state of I being the persona with all of its wants, lacks, sense of having free will and so on. The other thing I see is actually unnameable, whatever I call it I made it into an object which it itself sees. Its hard to use language when I talk about it. The watcher is fine name for it, as long as we agree its not an existing object. It doesn't have wants, lacks, free will or whatever. It just sees all the wants, lacks of person, like it sees the room,