6 years sober spent seeking the truth

[nemesis]

Is there anything left we should talk about?

[DoctahL]

I suppose not. Thank you so much for taking the time. 🙏

[nemesis]

There are some questions thatvare asked after a guiding.Are you willing to answe them now?
After that some other guides will look at your answers and see if they have a question. Then your name will turn blue, you get to see more of the forum and get invitations to our facebook groups.

This is not about confirming that seeing happened. Only you know that. It's more like a little ritual for both of us to end this. And for you another door will be opened. If something comes up again you can aleays tell me or make another thread in 'further investigations'.

Ready for the questions?

[DoctahL]

Ask away 😊

[nemesis]

Here they are:

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

[DoctahL]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No separate self now or ever. Only present experiencing, no experiencer.

Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it ufully as you see it now.

Well, seems like language from an early age has a lot to do with it. First words I learned were my name, mommy, daddy and labels for every possible experience. Labels and more labels solidifying this idea of two things. Labels are just thoughts. Including this label of "I". Thinking about this label of "I" (thoughts about thoughts) thus, a fictitious story of "me." Because thoughts and action (along with the other direct sensory experience) all happen as one, simultaneous happening, this belief in "I" assumes ownership of experiencing, i.e. "I do this" "I see" "I hear" etc. This is totally false and unnecessary. No effort is required because there is no one to exert effort.

How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels...lighter. When I started there was a feeling of underlying not-rightness, in regards to the overall model of "me" and the world and everything...also this feeling of being stuck or plateaued...like I had to DO something...there's been a perspective adjustment. A waning sense of the heaviness of responsibility I guess. Now there's a sense of adventure and readjustment. More realizing present is all there is without having to think about it.

What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

Honestly, the first exercise of focusing on senses and taking out the label of I. Realizing how the most basic, immediate experience requires no effort. Also you said something about "only verbs" and I didn't get that at first and then through our discussion it dawned on me without any explanation necessary.

Can you talk about decision, intention, free will, choice and control? What makes things happen? How does it work? What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

All sense perceptions, including thought, were realized to be automatic. This has to include thoughts about qualities that are noticed about experience. It took away the idea that I had a choice to whether I liked certain things or not and that seems obvious anyway. Decisions were thought to be the product of careful consideration but looking more closely so many decision are made every day without any conscious thought about them and when there is thought, there is no control of preference and only happens simultaneously creating the illusion of "me" making the decision. Basically, with no real personality, what happens...happens. And nothing is being done by any "me" or happening TO any "me". Far out.

Nothing to add except another heartfelt "Thank You." Very grateful for this site and your time.

[nemesis]

Well done. Let's see what the others say/if there are any more questions.

I've had so much fun guiding you! :)

[Vivien]

Hi DoctahL,

What name do you want me to call you?

Please write a bit about where you are at the moment. What is clearly seen and what is not. What is missing? In what way the self/me shows up in your everyday life?

Vivien

[DoctahL]

Hi Vivien.

Thank you so much for helping me with this. You can call me Chris.

Please write a bit about where you are at the moment. What is clearly seen and what is not.

So not long after the last post on this thread in April I reached out to a guide on the forum for help and we started my inquiry from the beginning via email. That has been going on until a week or two ago. It has been very helpful and I could never thank him enough. Something is obviously being missed somewhere on my part as a clear recognition of no self is still elusive.

Actual/raw experience vs. thinking/imagining is clear. (I may be guilty of veering into intellectualizing in my responses occasionally).

5 senses are happening automatically and require no effort. Simplest way in language to widdle down the definition of raw experience being "color, sound, taste, touch/feeling, smells" The raw experience of these are only labeled by thoughts (automatically) and the labels aren't the actual. The visual aspect of separation into objects being conceptual was difficult to grasp for a long time until recently. Woke up one morning and that seeing happened/popped. That was exciting and revamped my encouragement and motivation. So the poem that you have there at the bottom, "in the seen there is only the seen..." keeps popping into thoughts and is understood. :)

Choice. Is getting clearer. The understanding that conditioning and the constellation of conditions present which are outside of any control that dictate "choice" is clear or at least clearer than it was.

Memory and future only existing in thoughts that happen now is understood.

Thoughts arising and vanishing on their own without a thinker. However, throughout the day I catch getting carried away in thoughts. The idea of "trying to think" about something struck me as funny the other morning and looked into that. What came up was possibly the idea of "trying" was connected to a sensation of tension in the body that is associated and labeled as "trying". "Trying" in any respect probably. If thoughts are just happening then the idea of trying would have to be a label associated with noticing the feeling of tenseness in the body + thoughts.

I guess there is still a feeling or thought of responsibility or aptitude for thinking or figuring all this out. i.e. "what am "I" missing here?"

Also, I wrote this in PM but it's unclear what thoughts can and can't do. It seems like they can cause emotional reactions. Also, there is a definite correlation between thoughts arising about something getting done...i.e. go to the store, do the dishes, etc. and then subsequently one action after another happens and these things get done. The doing of the dishes experience is obvious that it's an automatic happening. Same with driving. Too many tiny details and decisions would be necessary and there's no way they would ever get done or happen smoothly if every little choice was to be made. It seems though, that the thoughts that arise prior at least influence these actions to take place. And what agrees to this? If the body follows thought, what agrees?

In the same vein. Beliefs. What can believe thoughts? How can beliefs cause suffering if no one is there to believe them?

And I guess "sense of self" in feeling isn't seen clearly or hasn't been looked at yet.

In what way the self/me shows up in your everyday life?

Still a felt or assumed responsibility for "figuring things out" and the fear of not "seeing". The implication of not seeing no self.

Emotions like aggravation, frustration or discouragement arise from time to time and these are old, habitual, defining characteristics.

Worry or sensitivity to others perceptions of "me" arise sometimes. Along with responsibility thoughts of "measuring up" to standards of expected character...i.e. "man, dad, son, employee, friend," etc. all these roles.

I think that covers it lol.

Thanks a million.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Emotions like aggravation, frustration or discouragement arise from time to time and these are old, habitual, defining characteristics.

Worry or sensitivity to others perceptions of "me" arise sometimes. Along with responsibility thoughts of "measuring up" to standards of expected character...i.e. "man, dad, son, employee, friend," etc. all these roles.

Do you think and expect that after seeing no self there would be no more old, habitual emotional reactions?
Do you expect that thoughts and emotions of ‘what others think of me’ would never appear again?
Do you expect that Chris-character should disappear?

Please look into these very honestly.

It’s very important that with every question I will give you, you really look, and never just think about it.

Also, please always write what you can actually SEE in experience, and not what you understand intellectually. If you cannot see something clearly, please indicate that, otherwise you would give a false impression that you can see something, while you can’t. And by seeing, I mean not just seen one or twice, not just seen yesterday or a week ago and now you have a memory of that seeing, but rather what you can see here, now, in this very moment.

If you saw something yesterday, but you don’t see it now, then in this moment that seeing is not a seeing, rather it’s a belief based on a previous seeing, and not a live experience now.

So can we agree that you try to clearly communicate what is clearly seen now, and what is just an intellectual understanding now based on a memory?

Let’s start with thoughts. This is probably one of the most important parts to see clearly.

So, what do you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?

Look at this at least 50-100 times a day, even if just for 10 seconds each. The frequency of looking is very important.
You need to incorporate looking into your daily life.

So stay with these questions for a day, and let me know what you find.

Vivien

[DoctahL]

Do you think and expect that after seeing no self there would be no more old, habitual emotional reactions?

No that isn't an expectation. Just that when these pop up, it's old. Tiresome. The thought is that maybe seeing there is no person, these states wouldn't have to be taken so "personally".

Do you expect that thoughts and emotions of ‘what others think of me’ would never appear again?

No. There aren't really any expectations about what happens or doesn't happen as a result of seeing no self. This sensitivity to others opinions is just worrisome thinking that creates this vulnerable "self consciousness". I'm just after the truth, whatever that brings.

Do you expect that Chris-character should disappear?

No this isn't an expectation either. I rather like Chris lol. This whole inquiry and the seeking for years prior...there is a drive that hasn't stopped and won't until something happens...or makes sense...can't assume to know what I don't know, you know?

So can we agree that you try to clearly communicate what is clearly seen now, and what is just an intellectual understanding now based on a memory?

Yes ma'am. I'll do my best.

So, what do you do in order to think?
How do you make (or birth) a thought into existence?

What a question!

I spent all day with this. Busy workday doing tree work.

Thoughts pop up totally spontaneously. No doing, no effort and no warning. Also the content varies wildly. Thinking is weird. Especially seeing it just happen on its own.

Most of the content, was about this question. You and I are in polar opposite time-zones, so I see your replies first thing in the morning. Thoughts arose repeating this question all day. Like a voice. Not like a voice. AS a voice.

It was noticed that most of the thoughts today were introduced by what you asked, or what my boss said, the outrageous heat, or a song that was heard on the morning drive played throughout the day (in thoughts). The point being that thoughts seem to have reflected...um stimuli from circumstances of some sort automatically. Not all of them.

For the first time, thoughts about thoughts were actually seen. Just happening. Nothing extravagant. Take the heat today for example. A thought came, "my God, it's so hot", then something like, "remember last year at that guy's house, it was super hot then, too".
A thought spin-off of the first thought. It was seen how that can just go on and on. Sometimes into made up scenarios.

Meanwhile, work is happening. Chainsaws, loud machinery, raking. Things you would think need attentive thinking. Thoughts going on completely unrelated at times. Sometimes it's music playing that I don't even like lol. So not always any apparent rhyme or reason so to speak.

Nobody is "doing" thinking. It's totally just happening.

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

You did a nice investigation with thoughts :)

No that isn't an expectation. Just that when these pop up, it's old. Tiresome. The thought is that maybe seeing there is no person, these states wouldn't have to be taken so "personally".

When the self is seen through, certain things are not taken as personally as before, but certain things still will be. Since taking things personally not just depends on the belief in a self, but also on psychological and emotional wounds we carry inside. And every time a wound is being touched, it will be taken personally. It will hurt, until these emotional wounds are met.

Seeing through the self is not the end, it’s just the beginning. Just the first step.

No this isn't an expectation either. I rather like Chris lol.

:)
And what is it exactly that likes Chris?
Is there another you outside of the fantasy story about Chris?
Is there something outside that could like or dislike what is happening in the story?

Thoughts arose repeating this question all day. Like a voice. Not like a voice. AS a voice.

Yes, thoughts appear as a voice.

But notice, is there an actual person / Chris talking, or this voice is just an IMAGINED SOUND? The imagined sound / voice of the body?

Vivien

[DoctahL]

And what is it exactly that likes Chris?

Hm. Looks like it's just a thought that says that. When it's looked at what this statement is referring to, it's not focused on liking "Chris" as much as a better quality of living compared to a darker, "old life" when drinking was involved. Not sick and tired anymore. Healed relationships and decent money. That kind of thing.

Is there another you outside of the fantasy story about Chris?

This part..."story about Chris" is unclear. As a whole it's unclear. I will say, today a rake was being looked for. Couldn't remember where I left it. Searching around, and suddenly, thought comes, "it's on the other side of the truck". It just came. There was suddenly just that knowing. It was noticed to be like that and then another thought came that said, "I remembered where it was all the sudden". There was no doing. "I" didn't remember anything. That thought/knowing just came all by itself. Now in the sense of ownership, that extra I only occurred as a thought and was just...extra. Unnecessary. Also, just 2 weeks ago I had to start learning how to drive a manual transmission for work. There was fear and resistance from the thought of learning something new (and worry that it was dangerous to try to learn to drive stick in an old dump truck) but after some "conditioning" just some getting used to, it's smooth sailing already. It would be just as unnecessary to say, "I" learned to drive stick. Driving stick was learned. Arms move, pedals pushed, gears are felt...all happening while totally unrelated thoughts play out while driving now.

Is there something outside that could like or dislike what is happening in the story?

Well, as far as today goes, "I learned to drive stick" was seen as a story. There was just the noticing of that. Nothing but the driving and the thoughts about it. Maybe a thought, "this is nice" or "I'm glad I figured this out" but those are just thoughts.

But notice, is there an actual person / Chris talking, or this voice is just an IMAGINED SOUND? The imagined sound / voice of the body?

No the voice is just an imagined sound that sounds like the voice of the body.

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

You gave a description how learning to drive with a manual happened. But when I ask “Is there another you outside of the fantasy story about Chris?” – then I ask you to do a bit more, or something else what you’ve done so far.

So you can notice how things happen. That’s good.

But with the above question, I literally ask you to search for another you outside of the thought story of Chris.
I mean, literally. Just as you would search for your lost keys.

It’s not enough to understand that there is no other you outside of the story. This has to be seen.

So there is an almost continuous story telling or narrating is going on about Chris, or on behalf of Chris.

And my question is… If you stop and look… can you find an ACTUAL REAL ENTITY, which this story is all about?
Search for this I. Where is it?
Where is the entity that story of Chris is about? Where? Find it.

Hm. Looks like it's just a thought that says that. When it's looked at what this statement is referring to, it's not focused on liking "Chris" as much as a better quality of living compared to a darker, "old life" when drinking was involved. Not sick and tired anymore. Healed relationships and decent money. That kind of thing.

But do you see that both the old and the new is still a story about Chris?

So where is this Chris EXACTLY, who used to drink, but not anymore? Where?

Is he in the feet? In the hands? In the chest? In the throat? In the head? At the top of the head? Or the back? Or at the back? Or in the ears? Or is Chris living in the face? Or is he living in the eyes? Or maybe he resides in the forehead? Where is he?
Where is his residence? Where in the body?

Vivien

[DoctahL]

And my question is… If you stop and look… can you find an ACTUAL REAL ENTITY, which this story is all about?

No. To stop and look, all that is present is what is labeled "body". Sights, sounds, sensations. All happening automatically without doing.

But do you see that both the old and the new is still a story about Chris?

Yes this is clearer thank you.

So where is this Chris EXACTLY, who used to drink, but not anymore? Where?

Cannot be found outside of thoughts. There are memories that come with thoughts about defining "Chris" but when I stop and look, there's nothing here but the experience of the body and surroundings.

Is he in the feet? In the hands? In the chest? In the throat? In the head? At the top of the head? Or the back? Or at the back? Or in the ears? Or is Chris living in the face? Or is he living in the eyes? Or maybe he resides in the forehead? Where is he?
Where is his residence? Where in the body?

No entity in any of these places. No part of the body inside or out is housing this entity. Going through this list, there is only the experience of seeing and the sensations of the body parts (that can be seen) the head and back are only experienced through sensations. Just a vibrating or pulsing that does not imply a "Chris".