Feel like I'm close but need a push

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

Unless directed otherwise, I'm going to try keeping my answers shorter. I think over-explaining certain things may be an intellectual stumbling block of mine, so I'll make more of an effort to keep my answers brief and to the point.

It’s all right as long as you see clearly that what you leave out is nothing else than intellectualization.
Imagination and thought are essentially the same thing. Imagination is just another type of thought.
Yes, nice looking. Thoughts mainly appear either as auditory/verbal thoughts, or visual/pictorial thoughts. But at both cases, these are just thoughts.

I know a cup is real because I experience it with the sense of sight and touch.
The tooth fairy is not real because I have never seen it with my own eyes. All I know of it is from imaginary stories.

So the cup is real, because it can be experienced, but the Tooth Fairy is not since it cannot be experienced, right?

Take a cup or any object into your hands.

And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling/touching). Can you?

Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

Well this is strange, I originally submitted this last night, but it didn't go through because the form was invalid. Luckily I could get it back, so just reposting again.

So the cup is real, because it can be experienced, but the Tooth Fairy is not since it cannot be experienced, right?

Yes, that's how I see it.

Take a cup or any object into your hands.

And investigate if the cup can be experience in any other way then with the 5 senses (seeing, hearing, tasting, smelling, feeling/touching). Can you?

No. I investigated it with all five senses and found that there was no other way to experience it.

Can anything be experience in any other way than with the 5 senses?

Look carefully. Don’t just think, but really try to experience outside the 5 senses. Can this be done?

To test this, I put the object down and closed my eyes. Being unable to perceive it with any of my senses, there was no way to experience it. Therefore, it can't be done.

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

OK, now let’s look at thoughts. Remember a cup in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the cup can be pointed to and verified.

Why doesn't that happen with thought?
Why can’t you touch a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you feel a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you point your finger to a thought?
Or is there a doubt, because maybe there is a third option?

Can you see that there are ONLY TWO options:
Either EXPERIENCING something by touching, smelling, tasting, hearing, etc
or
IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?

Please really-really examine these questions. Be very thorough. Don’t rush through this, since this is the BASIS of everything we are looking at here.

Vivien

[Vivien]

Ohhh, sorry, the doubt with a third option should have gone here:

Can you see that there are ONLY TWO options:
Either EXPERIENCING something by touching, smelling, tasting, hearing, etc
or
IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?
Or is there a doubt, because maybe there is a third option?

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

OK, now let’s look at thoughts. Remember a cup in front of you is real, tangible. It "exists" in a way that can be examined with the senses. Anyway, the cup can be pointed to and verified.

Why doesn't that happen with thought?
Why can’t you touch a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you feel a thought?
Why can’t you smell a thought?
Why can’t you point your finger to a thought?

You can't do these things to a thought because thoughts can't be experienced through the five senses.

Can you see that there are ONLY TWO options:
Either EXPERIENCING something by touching, smelling, tasting, hearing, etc
or
IMAGINING = THINKING
Is this totally clear?

It is.

Please really-really examine these questions. Be very thorough. Don’t rush through this, since this is the BASIS of everything we are looking at here.
Or is there a doubt, because maybe there is a third option?

I can't perceive any third option at all.

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

You can't do these things to a thought because thoughts can't be experienced through the five senses.

But WHY thoughts cannot be experienced through the five senses? Why?

Is ANY thought that is real (contains experience). ANY. Can you?

Please don’t just automatically reply back that “of course I can’t”, but rather actually make an effort to find any thought that is ‘real’ (which contains experience). Do anything you can to find a ‘real’ thoughts. Really try.

I can't perceive any third option at all.

Are you 100% sure that there is either THOUGHT (fiction/imagination) or EXPERIENCE (5 senses)?

My questions might sound repetitive, but that’s the goal. :) Please look very carefully repeatedly throughout the day before replying.

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

But WHY thoughts cannot be experienced through the five senses? Why?

Thoughts cannot be smelled, touched, tasted, seen or heard, so therefore cannot be perceived by the organs that smell, touch, taste, see or hear.

Is ANY thought that is real (contains experience). ANY. Can you?

Thoughts do not contain experience because their contents are purely imaginary.The closest they come is in imagining or communicating the memories of experiences, but these are not the actual experiences themselves. On trying to experience anything through thought, I find that genuine, real experiences are not possible, only the imaginary versions or memories of them.

I can't perceive any third option at all.

Are you 100% sure that there is either THOUGHT (fiction/imagination) or EXPERIENCE (5 senses)?

After repeatedly trying and failing to perceive a third option I am 100% sure these are the only two options there are.

Dave

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

Thoughts cannot be smelled, touched, tasted, seen or heard, so therefore cannot be perceived by the organs that smell, touch, taste, see or hear.

But WHY thoughts cannot be touched, seen, tasted, smelled?

Because thoughts are NOT REAL.

Let me repeat.

Thoughts are just concepts. Not real, actual, existing things. Just conceptual ideas.

Not matter what a thought is about, it’s always just an imagination. An illusion. Why? Well, try grabbing one. Try touching it. Try holding onto a thought.

Is this totally clear that no matter what a thought is about it’s always just an imagination and not an actual, real thing?

Make sure that you are 100% certain of your reply.
If you have even just a slightest doubt, let me know.

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

Thoughts are just concepts. Not real, actual, existing things. Just conceptual ideas.

Not matter what a thought is about, it’s always just an imagination. An illusion. Why? Well, try grabbing one. Try touching it. Try holding onto a thought.

Is this totally clear that no matter what a thought is about it’s always just an imagination and not an actual, real thing?

Make sure that you are 100% certain of your reply.
If you have even just a slightest doubt, let me know.

Yes, I am 100% certain that a thought is always imaginary and never real. I have no doubts about this.

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

Yes, I am 100% certain that a thought is always imaginary and never real. I have no doubts about this.

Great!

Look for the self now. Please do each of these exercises bellow, designed to move you from thought-based inquiry to experiential.

If it's there, and has been there 'your whole life', then it should be plain and simple.

Listen for the self. What is heard right now? List it out.

Find the self with touch. Touch the self. What is found?

Find the self with smelling. Smell it. What can be found?

Feel the self. How does the self is felt? What is the feeling of the self?

Look at the self. How does it look like? How bit it is? What shape it has? And where is it?

Look very carefully with each questions. Be careful not to reply with the automatic knee-jerk condition thought reactions. Rather try to get outside of the box of the learned, collected intellectual knowledge, and really investigate with the simplicity and curiosity of a child.

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

Listen for the self. What is heard right now? List it out.

I sat down and listened and beneath the singing of birds and a car alarm coming from outside could and was unaware of thoughts or any other internal state. Then, as I turned my concentration inwards, the occasional brief thought arose then faded again, without without origin or destination. Between them was just nothingness and no awareness of the self.

Find the self with touch. Touch the self. What is found?

I touched my torso and then my face and forehead with my hands, but all I feel is the skin, bone and hair of my body, This is just the body though, there is no self to touch.

Find the self with smelling. Smell it. What can be found?

Inhaling the scent on the back of my palm, I become aware of the slight aroma of salt on the skin, but this is just my hand, there is no self to inhale the smell of.

Feel the self. How does the self is felt? What is the feeling of the self?

Relaxing and closing my eyes, I try to feel for the existence of a self, yet all that's to be found is silence and emptiness. There is nothing else to feel but the occasional passing thought.

Look at the self. How does it look like? How big it is? What shape it has? And where is it?

There is nothing to see but parts of my own physical body when my eyes are open and the darkness of the inside of my eyelids when they are closed. Nothing that could be called the self is seen, whether it's its size, shape or location.There is nothing to see.

Dave.

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

You did an excellent looking :)

We have words for things that can be experienced through the five senses.
Like there is a thought label ‘chair’ that is a name for an ACTUAL object/thing (the ‘thing’ called ‘chair’ itself).

And we have words that give a name/label to something that cannot be experienced through the five senses.
These “things” can only be THOUGHT OF, they don’t actually exist. They just imagined.
Like the ‘monster under the bed’, or Santa, or the Tooth Fairy.
That’s the difference between fact and fiction.

The word ‘chair’ names/labels something that can be touched, seen, and when you knock on wood, it can be heard.

What is the label ‘my-SELF’ a name for?

Please look everywhere. Find the ACTUAL, EXPEREINCABLE ‘thing’ that the word ‘my-SELF’ is a label/name for.

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

What is the label ‘my-SELF’ a name for?

Please look everywhere. Find the ACTUAL, EXPEREINCABLE ‘thing’ that the word ‘my-SELF’ is a label/name for.

I closed my eyes and eventually silence came. I cleared all thoughts as best I could and made the effort to experience everything going on in those silent moment. Again, all that could be heard were the noises coming from outside, all that could be felt was the weight of my body as I lay on my bed and the sensation of breathing and my fingers touching each other. All that could be smelled was my housemates' dinner cooking. Nothing could be seen or tasted. Wehn thoughts arose I explored them and found nothing of consequences. When emotions were sensed they seemed like nothing important. In all of these senses and thoughts, there was no trace of a self to call my own. Therefore that word is a lavel for precisely nothing.

Dave

[Vivien]

Hi Dave,

I cleared all thoughts as best I could and made the effort to experience everything going on in those silent moment.

Please do this again. Close your eyes and ‘clear all thoughts as best as possible’. And investigate:

What is it that is clearing thoughts? What is it that is making thoughts go away?
Is there an entity making the thoughts go away?
Does the word ‘I’ clearing the thoughts?
Or is there a specific thought clearing other thoughts?
Or there are simply less thoughts appearing?
What feels truer in experience?

Please investigate all of them one-by-one.

all that could be felt was the weight of my body as I lay on my bed

“the weight of my body” – what is it that owns the body?
Does the word ‘I’ owns the body?
Does the thought ‘my body’ owns the body?
Does the sensations owns the body?
Does the narrating thoughts owns the body?
Does the Dave-character owns the body?
Does the label ‘body’ owns the body?

Investigate this and write what feels true for you.

Vivien

[Ainonia]

Hi Vivien,

What is it that is clearing thoughts? What is it that is making thoughts go away?

What makes the thoughts go away is another thought, though it is subtle and 'quiet.'

Is there an entity making the thoughts go away?

There is no entity doing that, but the sense that there is one can be quite strong in its illusion when stilling the volume of other thoughts.

Does the word ‘I’ clearing the thoughts?

No, but again, the sense of illusion is quite strong here.

Or is there a specific thought clearing other thoughts?

Yes, this is what I perceived to be the case.

Or there are simply less thoughts appearing?
What feels truer in experience?

What feels truer is that there is some kind of thought that seems to be able to shape or alter the presence or volume of other thoughts.

“the weight of my body” – what is it that owns the body?

Nothing owns it, it just exists and there is an awareness of it existing through the senses.

Does the word ‘I’ owns the body?

No, definitely not.

Does the thought ‘my body’ owns the body?

Not at all!

Does the sensations owns the body?

No, I feel they are a product of the body not the owner of it.

Does the narrating thoughts owns the body?

Again, definitely not!

Does the Dave-character owns the body?

No way! Not at all.

Does the label ‘body’ owns the body?

Again, no. These things are all just concepts and can't own anything

Investigate this and write what feels true for you.

Dave