Truly Desperately Lost

[Zeno]

Sry for typos. Could no find edit of submitted posts yet.

[Seamist]

Great, Matthias, really nice noticing.
Similarly, you could imagine walking, then walk.
Imagine pinching your skin, then pinch …

(Don't worry about typos! I make them too! There doesn't seem to be anyway of correcting them.)
xx

[Zeno]

Similarly, you could imagine walking, then walk

Walking was also quite nice. Imagining to walk, there was no change in pressure from floor, also imagining to baalance was only imaginary, no real sense of balancing. I saw a picture of me from outside body. Also quite hard to get the scenary right, so that it passes at right speed as I was walking.
Real walking was quite a challenge to get all what was going on. Impossible in fact, al those tiny muscles and foot sensations and balance.
Movement was the biggest difference between imagined and real. Movement, this gliding through 3d space was much more connected than in imagination. Direct.

Pinching

Pinching was again this anaestized feeling in imagination. Pain was seen as visual reaction, also imagined as facial muscle reaction.
In reality pinching brought pain i felt bot sides of touching then again this bubble thing. Interestingly alos the pain did not differentiate two different body parts but merged into the sensation bubble. The bubble however had a spatial charactersitic.

With both experiences again, the imagined was totally different than the real.

[Zeno]

Was a bit less motivated as i have a dizziness since two days that kept me home accompanied with nausea. hope to get better soon.

[Seamist]

Hi Matthias
Hope you're feeling better?

With both experiences again, the imagined was totally different than the real.

this is great.

Close your eyes and imagine the size and shape of your left foot.? how do you experience it? Is there a visual memory/ mental image of the foot? Describe what comes to mind.
x

[Zeno]

Hope you're feeling better?

Yes thanks it is better today, not over yet.

Close your eyes and imagine the size and shape of your left foot.? how do you experience it? Is there a visual memory/ mental image of the foot? Describe what comes to mind.

Well there was a foot visual image first, which changed toe size until I thought it could be mine. In between the shaping of the foot (funny to watch that), there were snapshots of my big toe from memory, that were then integrated and the little toe as well. Overall it was not a very realistic foot. The perspective was not as it should be if seen from head, but slightly to the right of the body at waist height. In between imagining it my awareness slipped again and again into the real foot to feel it, only to come back to visual foot, as it did not add to the imagined foot. I could not add touch or other inner sensation (like tingling) to the imagined foot. Good thing though was, the imagined foot did not smell (not that my feet are smelling more than anybody else's).
One thing was also interesting, there is a difference between visual-imagined and imagined-imagined. The visual-imagined picture has more characteristics of really seeing. If eyes are closed, the image seems to be flat and at the eyelids. If eyes are open it is a bit like an overlay over the real image (cannot hold it for more than a split second if eyes are open). Like somebody is watching something.
Whereas the other imagined-imagined style of imagining is deeper within, it is more dreamlike but also less specific. As if something always gives an "ok, I know what you mean" even if the image is not correct, or only half. It is more like a style of thinking. If fixed on an object it is more like in a black container than flat visual-like as the other style. Otherwise one can totally fall into it and travel in that dimension forgetting about anything else, especially the visual. Similar to the mind state of unconscious car driving, where you drop out trance and 5 minutes are gone and you where somewhere in the future rehearsing, or in the past or so. Immersive, absorbing, the observing aspect is toned down or can disappear, but without being aware of it.
Thanks Sioned!

[Seamist]

Great noticing, Matthias.
Next...(you might need to repeat the last exercise first)
Now still with eyes closed, tune in purely with the directly experienced physical sensations that you had before. Do the actual sensations have the same size and shape as the image of your foot? Describe your foot purely in DE.
What difference do you notice between 1 and 2?

x

[Zeno]

Do the actual sensations have the same size and shape as the image of your foot?

No. There is a visual overlay most times, that makes sense out of the pure sensations, more like an ordering scheme. It is there if I am perspectively around the head area. Then the sensations have are imputed a specific quality like toe, heel etc. If awareness is concentrated in the sensations themselves, there is a pull back to head position and a back and forth, oscillating and interrupted by thought-image and other sensations.

Describe your foot purely in DE.

But there are moments when there is only the specific sensation I am looking for. It is a tingling, pulsing - like little bells and a more muffled area like sensation. No shape connected, or if shape it is a massive cylinder.

What difference do you notice between 1 and 2?

In any way DE is very different from the image, all the sensations do not appear in the imagined foot. But image-thought is needed to construct a foot.

One final note. I do get now, why it is so important to have a good concentration, which is why so many recommend meditation training. The full foot appears when the attention is coming back to image or thought, which happens often. The spatial characteristic of the sensations is there because attention jumps to visual or to feeling other body parts. It is hard to investigate the phenomenon, when you have such unstable view. It is like being a video-feed surgeon who has a clear image for few seconds and then the screen shows some trees, then some people, then a blank screen or just a colour etc. Very erratic and annoying.

[Seamist]

Hi

Describe your foot purely in DE.
But there are moments when there is only the specific sensation I am looking for. It is a tingling, pulsing - like little bells and a more muffled area like sensation. No shape connected, or if shape it is a massive cylinder.

yes. great. The sensation is nothing like the mage, is it?

Try this also.
Close your eyes and feel the sensations of your bottom on the chair or sofa in DE. Can you actually discern where the boundary of your body meets the chair or sofa? Or does the boundary exist merely as an idea? Describe the sensations of sitting on the chair.
x

[Zeno]

The sensation is nothing like the mage, is it?

Mages come in different forms. There is the Illusionist, conjurer, enchanter, diviner, evocer etc. Can be black or white. I like my mage, but, the mage is nothing like sensation. Although magic has its own wonders, it is quite limited.

Can you actually discern where the boundary of your body meets the chair or sofa?

No. Not if my point of attention stay in the sensation. There is no boundary. The sensation space should be filled with a half plane of hardness, but it is not. Like before, when the point of attention flips back to the head perspective, with it comes a situatedness of the sensation bubble in physical space. Looking more closely it seems (glimpses) that every time there is a thought or image, the point of awareness pops out of the spatiousness of the bottom sensation and all relational categories appear (down there, up here, orientation in Room, sitting on chair etc.). I am not fast enough to really notice the switch and what exactly causes it. There are also some moments (few seconds) where all this dissolves and there is only that sensation, it opens up. This comes with a rush (like when one gets dizzy) that travels through the body/drops down and up. Hard to describe.

Or does the boundary exist merely as an idea?

Yes it does in DE. But I do not see exactly the mechanism. Visual is definitely one cause, but there is something even more primal, something like balance or orientation that establishes the distance before then the boundary gets constructed with maybe visual? Not sure yet.

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Describe the sensations of sitting on the chair.

This sensation bubble has a prickle to it, also something more damp and continuous. There is a fluidity of change as well. It is very instable, very often I get distracted by a pinch here or a tickle there.

[Seamist]

Hi Matthias,

The sensation is nothing like the mage, is it?
Mages come in different forms. There is the Illusionist, conjurer, enchanter, diviner, evocer etc. Can be black or white. I like my mage, but, the mage is nothing like sensation. Although magic has its own wonders, it is quite limited.

How interesting! I made a typo (I meant to write "The sensation is nothing like the IMAGE"), but nonetheless it seems to have stimulated some exploration for you.

[quote]Can you actually discern where the boundary of your body meets the chair or sofa?
No. Not if my point of attention stay in the sensation. There is no boundary. [/quote] Good - and yes the question is directing you to explore using sensation only - what's actually there in immediate experience.

when the point of attention flips back to the head perspective

watch out for this - it's thinking and won't help you. Just note "thinking" and put it to one side while you'r doing these exercises. It will still happen, of course, but it's not where your focus needs to be.

and there is only that sensation, it opens up. This comes with a rush (like when one gets dizzy) that travels through the body/drops down and up.

good

[quote]Or does the boundary exist merely as an idea?
Yes it does in DE. But I do not see exactly the mechanism.[/quote] just reminding you that DE is all we're interested in here.

There's some lovely exploring there, well done.

Let's look at thoughts more directly now.
This exercise has a dual purpose. Firstly, to become aware of each and every though as they appear. Secondly, the careful looking for the gap is an example of how carefully to look when looking for the ‘separate self’.
Here is a step-by-step description of how to look at thoughts. First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere, several times throughout your day. Close your eyes and just notice thoughts. Don’t engage with any thought, just notice them.

1. Notice the current thought that is present.
Like when you sit observing the body, a thought might arise “this is my feet” or “here is a pain” or “my breathing is too quick” or “I am bored with this exercise” or “I have better things to do” or any sorts of thoughts.

2. This thought will pass and another thought will come. So just observe this thought passing.

3. Then wait for the next thought to come.

4. When the next thought is present, just notice it, and see how it passes.

5. Then wait for the next thought to come.

6. Repeat #4 and #5 many-many times.

Between the 2 thoughts there is a gap. It can be very short or subtle, just a second or a few seconds before the next thought come in.

This is how to look at thoughts:-
Looking how they come and go, and
Observing the short gap between them.
Noticing how the current thought is passing.
And waiting for the next thought to come.

Please do the following exercise:
Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible. It can be done by noticing that ‘thinking’ is happening right now, then stop and just simply wait for the next thought to come. In the ‘waiting’ there is a gap between two thoughts.

Let me know how you go.

xx

[Zeno]

Hi Sioned, I will have two very full days ahead, only very limited time for quiet sitting. I would like to explore this without rush and will write about my experiences on Friday.

[Seamist]

of course, thanks for letting me know, Matthias xx

[Zeno]

First thing is to sit for at least 10-15 minutes quietly somewhere,

I could do this exercise only 2 times late night before bed. Barely time to do it:
Ok. That was quite interesting. I never did sit with thought in meditation, there was always something to do (focus on object) or I had my eyes open. This brought an endless stream of images, word-thoughts with quite arbitrary content, mostly fast moving and changing except when I was caught by it. When I was looking for a gap I expected (concept) to find stillness. Almost always though there was no stillness, but awareness was filled with sensation. Touch, sound, visuals, inner sounds, feelings etc. There was a gap, even many gaps, even long pauses between image-word-thoughts, but gap suggests that nothing happens, instead it was extremely rich and varied. That was kind of surprising and a little eureka moment for me.

Throughout your waking day, try to observe the gap between thoughts as often as possible.

This I did much more often. Actually I do it a lot these days and that is why I know the gap quite well (I thought). But actually the gap is mostly a gap in word-thought. That process of subvocalization and word-chatter in mind just stops for quite some time, even up to 10-20 seconds.
However, there is also image-thought. It is more subtle as it does not come with the noticeable throat subvocalization sensation of word-thought, which is not that difficult to notice. Image-thought lacks a bodily process in a sense. But it seems to be there almost always? E.g. in a word-gap I feel a body sensation, lets say nose. But usually the sensation nose has a subtle thought image with it, instantly the image comes with the center-of-head-eye position, but when discerning the nose-sensation from others, it gets better framed, and that narrowing down comes also with a shift of image-thought-visual perspective from outside the body. Like a puppet or mock up nose, to specially orient "nose-sensation" and give it place in space (like with the bottom sensation before).

Noting the word-thought process in more detail there was another interesting thing. When word-thought comments on the word-thought process itself, i.e. word-thought itself is speaking about word-thoughting, that loop somehow encapsulates the process, it becomes a bit automatic. This allows to see a different kind of gap more clearly, which I usually called "the minimal distance". It allows an awareness of this process that is much more clear, stable and discernable. That way it was possible to get a clearer impression of the awareness/presence "part?" of the processing. It was better traceable, but without there being anything traceable, if that makes sense?
This "minimal distance", how I call it, was the most important discovery during the experience I had, which brought me originally on this path. For the first time though with this exercise I had the impression to get it a little better defined in direct experience, not as a concept, but as a more stable experience. Very fascinating.

When word-thought stopped for a while and the last process was gone without leaving a trace (memory), the view was clearer to look at image-thought. I tried to map that looping I described above also on the image-thought, but so far it was not enough time to drill into that part thoroughly enough.

Result: I gained some experience with a word-thought gap, but not with the image-thought, as it is really much more subtle or more deeply integrated.
I think I want to continue with that exercise for a bit, but maybe you have a suggestion for something else and I could also do this gap-exercise together with another one.

Thanks Sioned!

Very interesting indeed.

[Zeno]

Another small comment: The beginning of word-thoughts just starts out of nowhere, it is spontaneous. It is hard to get the stopping moment. It is more like that a gone sensation is noticed or experienced in the body? Something else fills awareness or catches attention. This brief moment of gone comes with a sensation centered around the heart and upper breast area, also a bit the forehead, it is a mix between surprised, disorientation and perplex sensations. Then is the wait, that is extremely rich in other sensations.