The Gate

Hi Jadzia

This is a good picture. And like with the 3 D images, both are there the whole time, thoughts and DE, both equal parts of it.
Or is one more important than the other?
If yes, what says so?

Well, this has taken a while to experience fully today.

It would seem that DE is more important than thought.

What says so?

?? Survival...it is essential to pay attention to DE when things are life threatening, living in thought land would mean not being present to danger. This is inherent in animals - the human cognitive function is relatively new from an evolutionary perspective (my personal opinion is that the development of the frontal cortex and cognition/language removed us - in our illusion - from nature). Within the amygdala lies all animal reactions and they are part of us - we are part of the animal world, we've just lost touch with it. Sooo....thoughts/thinking started with the relatively new frontal cortex and it has kept us from remaining connected to nature - the world without thought/language. Thought, from what I can see now, is interference and the more I can tune into the natural world and what is actually happening here/now, the more I can tune out from this incessant and, mostly, useless chatter!!!!!!

Thoughts seem to create a bubble, a description of what everything is like, but hey, out of what?

I really wonder now... So, if we didn't have language, we wouldn't have thought creating and analysing irrelevant data over and over again in obsessive ways. It would seem that thought is like a computer virus,plucking information from past DE's and creating a false DE in our brains to keep us from throwing thought away. This sounds a bit crazy probably but I've never sat to consider any of this quite so directly.

Are thoughts tangible?

No, not in experience.

Is the self, which is only found in the story, the thinker of thoughts?

No...there really can be no self, well 'I' can't find one and anyway if there was a 'self' wouldn't there be a 'self' interest not to plague ourselves with obsessive chatter!?!

If yes? Shouldn't one be able to only think what one likes? Nice, uplifting thoughts?

My answer was no to a 'self' doing the thinking. However, nice uplifting thoughts can come from being present in DE that is uplifting. But then again, that would result more in happy feelings - thought would just tag along after the fact and create an 'I' story about the DE.

Do thoughts have any power at all? There are books which say so, but do they?

Well, it would seem they do if one is only living in a thought illusion. Thoughts can have people accusing husbands/wives of looking at them in a way that means something insulting. Thoughts can get people in to a state of panic. Thoughts can rule the roost. It would seem that the only way thought has no power is if 'I' be the flow and just experience. Thought also has power in getting more noisy as 'I' work on detaching life happening from thought - so in this sense thoughts can be powerful but not when one has detached and can see DE (life happening) and thought as two totally detached happenings. I've certainly worked with clients who've persuaded themselves that, in spite of being severely manic depressive or schizophrenic, they can make happy things happen and that they will become the new happiness guru. They read all the happiness books and then come back worse than before - I could go into this but don't think there's a need to do so.

Or are all this just ideas, assumptions, beliefs?

In general Jadzia, learning is happening and that is showing me that, for the most part, thought is just an endless stream of thought about assumptions, expectations, disappointments, didactic belief systems and thought based on all of this is what seems to run this world - it's mad!

Thank you for guiding me so brilliantly. So much is being learned as we go through this.

With love
Sara

Most of what you wrote, comes from reasoning and from what you learned - this makes it thinking ABOUT something and not looking.
Please do always Look.
Here is what looking is:
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual down to the actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

So keeping this in mind:

It would seem that DE is more important than thought.

How can what be known? Can a cue about this be found in DE?

It would seem that thought is like a computer virus,plucking information from past DE's and creating a false DE in our brains to keep us from throwing thought away.

One could say that thought does lay a layer over what is, but it really can't - there are no different layers, just the expressions of the same.
Psychological speaking, yes, most of our ways to see the world and most of the ways we react are from what is called past. But just for the moment drop thinking in these lines.
I so can understand the urge to understand all this and to work it into your current overview of what is, just have a bit of patience - you will find wonderful answers yourself over the next months and years.

Thoughts seem to create a bubble, a description of what everything is like, but hey, out of what?

Thoughts which point to other thoughts can be called empty, because they don't point to anything. So the bubble is created of nothing - it is an illusion as well. Don't overthink this, this will become clear.

Is the self, which is only found in the story, the thinker of thoughts?
No...there really can be no self, well 'I' can't find one and anyway if there was a 'self' wouldn't there be a 'self' interest not to plague ourselves with obsessive chatter!?!

True, one wouldn't do the going around in circles, which happens a lot.
Would you agree with the following?
"There is no thinker of thoughts, they just happen."

If yes? Shouldn't one be able to only think what one likes? Nice, uplifting thoughts?
My answer was no to a 'self' doing the thinking. However, nice uplifting thoughts can come from being present in DE that is uplifting. But then again, that would result more in happy feelings - thought would just tag along after the fact and create an 'I' story about the DE.

This is reasoning right? :-)
Have you ever been able to think only nice stuff?
If not it is another point for no-thinker-around.

The paragraph about looking already states it, but this is something easy to overlook:
Thoughts are found in DE, but not their content. The content isn't found in DE.
Even with "Hey, a car!" - a label "car" cannot be seen, seen is colour/form, which then is labeled.

Well, it would seem they do if one is only living in a thought illusion. Thoughts can have people accusing husbands/wives of looking at them in a way that means something insulting. Thoughts can get people in to a state of panic. Thoughts can rule the roost. It would seem that the only way thought has no power is if 'I' be the flow and just experience. Thought also has power in getting more noisy as 'I' work on detaching life happening from thought - so in this sense thoughts can be powerful but not when one has detached and can see DE (life happening) and thought as two totally detached happenings. I've certainly worked with clients who've persuaded themselves that, in spite of being severely manic depressive or schizophrenic, they can make happy things happen and that they will become the new happiness guru. They read all the happiness books and then come back worse than before - I could go into this but don't think there's a need to do so.

You might have missed your own point here, ;-)
From what you write you state that it is only thought which tells that thought has power.
One could say, that this is a nice try.... but nothing one believes, or?

Love,
Jadzia

Jadzia, thank you...I was going to send another message saying I'd realised exactly what I'd done but didn't. Thank you for your patient, kind and understanding response.

Most of what you wrote, comes from reasoning and from what you learned - this makes it thinking ABOUT something and not looking.
Please do always Look.
Here is what looking is:
‘Looking’ is just plain looking at what is here right now. It is moving from the conceptual down to the actual experience (AE). The term “Actual Experience” (AE) is used to refer to experience ‘right now,’ without the thought stories. So, actual experience (AE) is image/colour, sound, smell, sensation, taste and the simple knowing of thought, at face value. What thought says ie, the content of thought is NOT experience. This is evidenced by the fact that you cannot taste the word 'sweet'. So, when looking at actual experience (AE), you are looking at raw experience WITHOUT what thought says ABOUT the raw experience.

This is all duly noted and I will now only write from raw AE experience.

So keeping this in mind:

It would seem that DE is more important than thought.

How can what be known? Can a cue about this be found in DE?

Hmmm...no, it can't be found in AE, there is no answer to be found about this question.

It would seem that thought is like a computer virus,plucking information from past DE's and creating a false DE in our brains to keep us from throwing thought away.

One could say that thought does lay a layer over what is, but it really can't - there are no different layers, just the expressions of the same.
Psychological speaking, yes, most of our ways to see the world and most of the ways we react are from what is called past. But just for the moment drop thinking in these lines.
I so can understand the urge to understand all this and to work it into your current overview of what is, just have a bit of patience - you will find wonderful answers yourself over the next months and years.

This is important for me to read. It is exactly what I want right now, to let go and let the

wonderful answers

be found.

Thoughts seem to create a bubble, a description of what everything is like, but hey, out of what?

Thoughts which point to other thoughts can be called empty, because they don't point to anything. So the bubble is created of nothing - it is an illusion as well. Don't overthink this, this will become clear.

Aha... I see this now...I see now words informing that thoughts don't point to anything...reaction is Aha in that there is an understanding of emptiness. So, no...as I write, I see that thoughts form out of nothing...it is really being seen - empty, pointless thoughts interfering with typing!!!

Sooooooooo.....

Is the self, which is only found in the story, the thinker of thoughts?

No...there really can be no self, well 'I' can't find one and anyway if there was a 'self' wouldn't there be a 'self' interest not to plague ourselves with obsessive chatter!?!

True, one wouldn't do the going around in circles, which happens a lot.
Would you agree with the following?
"There is no thinker of thoughts, they just happen."

No, absolutely 100%, there is no thinker of thoughts...yaaaaay :-)!

If yes? Shouldn't one be able to only think what one likes? Nice, uplifting thoughts?

My answer was no to a 'self' doing the thinking. However, nice uplifting thoughts can come from being present in DE that is uplifting. But then again, that would result more in happy feelings - thought would just tag along after the fact and create an 'I' story about the DE.

This is reasoning right? :-)
Have you ever been able to think only nice stuff?
If not it is another point for no-thinker-around.

This is reasoning right? :-)

Yes, it is.

Have you ever been able to think only nice stuff?

No!

If not it is another point for no-thinker-around

Absolutely - gosh!

Thoughts are found in DE, but not their content. The content isn't found in DE.

Wow Jadzia, that's a big chew - I had to turn my head inside out to see this but YESSSSS, that's so right. So, have I got this right? Thoughts are part of DE because they happen, the same as sneezing/walking/eating happens, but the content of those thoughts are not part of DE because they are not happening in actual, raw experience. Please tell me this has been understood correctly.......

You might have missed your own point here, ;-)

I did, didn't I :-)!!

From what you write you state that it is only thought which tells that thought has power.

That is so true - astounding :-)!!!

Thank you for all of this Jadzia - that took a lot of time - I'm so grateful for that. Are you Austrian by the way...you ended your last sentence with "or?" which is very Austrian :-)

Love
Sara

Thank you for your patient, kind and understanding response.

We all fall into the same traps.
Years of conditioning of logical, reasoning, deductive thinking aren't easy to drop.

Hmmm...no, it can't be found in AE, there is no answer to be found about this question.

Exactly, if something is more or less important, this can't be found in AE,no way.
Now it gets super simple: What isn't found in AE/DE is found as content of a thought.
Check this for yourself to see if you agree.
DE is all senses + thought, right?
And what does this tell about positive and negative, nice and bad and so on?

Aha... I see this now...I see now words informing that thoughts don't point to anything...reaction is Aha in that there is an understanding of emptiness. So, no...as I write, I see that thoughts form out of nothing...it is really being seen - empty, pointless thoughts interfering with typing!!!

And words are nothing else but what thoughts are made of, right?
And words are made of letters, and letters are black bits on paper, and paper is something light and .......

No, absolutely 100%, there is no thinker of thoughts...yaaaaay :-)!

Good, one of the beliefs creating an idea of an autonomous, all powerfull self is down.

Thoughts are part of DE because they happen, the same as sneezing/walking/eating happens, but the content of those thoughts are not part of DE because they are not happening in actual, raw experience.

Bingo!

Here is a little experiment for you:
Imagine you are an alien to whom the concept of thoughts isn't known, so you are very curious. You heard the word thoughts, you learned that humans think thoughts the whole time, but you don't get it.
Suddenly you tap into the thoughts of a human.
or
in other words get to the meta level!
Sit quietly for several times over the next day, imagine you never ever had the chance to follow the flow of thoughts before, then tap into them. Just watch them, like you watch a movie, follow the narration, like´you would read a book. If you get sucked into the story - good, you noticed it! - get out of it and back into listening to this amazing thoughts with bright eyes.
No judgement, no moral, nothing, just joy in listening to the wonder of thoughts.
This is part of the story of Sara, wow! As interesting as Gossip Girl, or Star Trek! Wow!
Maybe you can see story lines, learn about the character and what else? Isn't it great?

Share what you find and enjoy the experience of something as amazing as thoughts.

Love,
Jadzia

or is used a lot in Germany, too. :-)

Jadzia, I'll get back to you later. It was my birthday yesterday and we were walking the dogs then skiing. Woke up with a bad migraine so sleeping it off. Talk later xxxx

Get well!

.....and migraine is a wonderful oportunity to see how the story of Sara unfolds, what is told, what is repeated over and over again, and how misery is built up.
Take the chance and we will have a look together at it as soon as you feel good again.

Love,
Jadzia

Hallo halloooo Jadzia ☺️
Thank you for your kind message today.

So... Back to work

Now it gets super simple: What isn't found in AE/DE is found as content of a thought.
Check this for yourself to see if you agree.
DE is all senses + thought, right?

Yes, this is amazing to think of it like this. The content of thought isn't found in AE but thought is... Wow, that's incredible to look at. Yes DE is just senses and thought 🤭😄✨!

This is harder

And what does this tell about positive and negative, nice and bad and so on?

all thoughts happen in AE but whether the thoughts are about nice things, judgmental or unkind doesn't matter because this is content of the thought. As I sit writing thoughts happen but the content is only important if it is given permission to take over and I play a game on my computer instead of posting here!! So the content of my thought here and now could be about something nice or bad but it doesn't change what is happening now which is writing to you.

Here is a little experiment for you:
Imagine you are an alien to whom the concept of thoughts isn't known, so you are very curious. You heard the word thoughts, you learned that humans think thoughts the whole time, but you don't get it.
Suddenly you tap into the thoughts of a human.
or
in other words get to the meta level!
Sit quietly for several times over the next day, imagine you never ever had the chance to follow the flow of thoughts before, then tap into them. Just watch them, like you watch a movie, follow the narration, like´you would read a book. If you get sucked into the story - good, you noticed it! - get out of it and back into listening to this amazing thoughts with bright eyes.
No judgement, no moral, nothing, just joy in listening to the wonder of thoughts.
This is part of the story of Sara, wow! As interesting as Gossip Girl, or Star Trek! Wow!
Maybe you can see story lines, learn about the character and what else? Isn't it great?

Share what you find

This has been amazing to work with over the past two days. I've jumped in and out and also got lost down the rabbit holes of thought and come out again.
What is seen is an unbelievable monologue of totally unrelated things and some thoughts are awful and there is no idea where a thought like these could come from. Sitting at the meta level is like watching someone stealing from a child who has no idea. Or... like sitting above the clouds in a sunny blue sky and being able to see how the cloud cover (thoughts) affects what is below. The clouds stop life below them from seeing the pure blue sky and sunshine.
At one moment I was so shocked; I wondered why I wasn't a lunatic or psychopath 🙊🥴🤭! It's madness, crazy but funny too. It felt like there was a bored child chatting away because it didn't like what was actually happening. This is crazy Jadzia! What a way to look at it - the poor alien!
Yes, listening to and really hearing what thoughts are saying is telling me a lot about my expectations and behaviour patterns. Doing this exercise has caught me out. This afternoon I had a breakthrough as I refused to listen to thought and just said out loud something I'd always wanted to say without worrying about what someone would think... There was just a different energy, something strong and sure. It was fleeting but really liberating. Right now I feel like I can see thought happening but I can choose to focus on what is happening rather than the content of thought because we have found that thought content is apparently not usually relevant to what is happening. But right now I could also fall down a rabbit hole of thought and it would take time for me to come out but that is getting a lot less recently.

This has been an amazing exercise Jadzia.

....and migraine is a wonderful oportunity to see how the story of Sara unfolds, what is told, what is repeated over and over again, and how misery is built up.
Take the chance and we will have a look together at it as soon as you feel good again.

This was interesting...I went back to bed to sleep but the dogs kept barking. Some frustration occurred because I knew I had an appointment to teach someone English at 14.00 and I didn't want to be tired. So I just lay there and focused on being present with my breath. Doing this I managed to doze off a bit and then wake again but eventually I got up and was amazed to see that I felt ok. All during that time I was so determined to just stay with my senses, breathing and allowing sounds to come and go like a flowing river - and wow...I felt fresh when I got up.

Jadzia, I hope I haven't lost the AE perspective. There was just so much to tell you from the exercise over the past two days.

With love
Sara

Yes DE is just senses and thought

This is another good step one can take, or what one can see.

...but the content is only important if it is given permission to take over ....

Hm, how does this permission thing work? Elaborate.

It felt like there was a bored child chatting away because it didn't like what was actually happening.

This is a good point to have a closer look at the story.
What isn't actually liked and why?
What is liked or disliked and how comes that something is liked and something else not?
Like and dislike relate to what.
Go through it and it is enough for me if you just give me some examples.
Try not to go into a intellectual response here, fresh from the gut is the best in this case, allow the answers to come and not to be thought up.

....just said out loud something I'd always wanted to say without worrying about what someone would think... There was just a different energy, something strong and sure.

That was for a moment dropping of judgement, right?
And yes, this really adds something.
And
this quite well shows that thoughts have a gift - with thoughts one can do cleaning up, once one takes the very honest gut approach.
And
looking at the story, which is all thoughts, is one of the keys to breaking free.

Ponder the questions, find the answers and go on observing the story of Sara with the same enthusiasm as you would watch your favourite film. Isabel Allende once said in an interview, that once she would write the story there wouldn't be a bad or boring story, but always something amazing. I guess she is right, it is about how something is told.

Love,
Jadzia

Hello Jadzia

...but the content is only important if it is given permission to take over ....

Hm, how does this permission thing work? Elaborate.

What is meant here is that there can be a getting lost in the content - mmmmmm....so no it's not permission is it! It's just getting lost in the content of thought. When that happens, it just feels like thought has been allowed to take over but there is no 'doer' or 'thinker' of thought so there is no-one/no-thing to give permission - getting lost in thought just happens until we are not lost in thought....oooohhhh!

It felt like there was a bored child chatting away because it didn't like what was actually happening.

This is a good point to have a closer look at the story.
What isn't actually liked and why?

The 'bored child' was meant as an analogy for the never ending stream of thought but you are right...I'm looking closer now :-)

What isn't actually liked and why?

So not pertaining to the context I mentioned (as that is not fresh), I'll just look at this as a fresh exercise in terms of what isn't liked in general.
Errm...on a daily basis things are not liked based on senses I think. As I sit now typing there is no awareness of anything being disliked. This is hard because you've asked a question pertaining to something specific I mentioned but you want an answer from fresh evidence so I can't talk about what I meant then at that point and it was quite specific. Soooo, right now there is no sense of not liking anything. I could talk from general memory about things that might have been put into dislike categories but right now in AE, nothing is being sensed as something to dislike.

What is liked or disliked and how comes that something is liked and something else not? Like and dislike relate to what.

In AE right here right now I can't find anything to like or dislike. I could talk about the nice day I had earlier where I really liked skiing but right here/now things feel balanced. A message has come in from a friend about a photo I sent her and I liked receiving it. I like the sense of calm around me. My finger is a bit painful from a cut but there is no strong sense of dislike just discomfort. The thing I see right now is that things are liked/not liked based on whether the sensation is a comfortable or pleasant one or not. If the temperature in the house right now was 2 degrees cooler it would be uncomfortable so you could say that that would not be liked so much based on the sensation of feeling cold. As I write I realise that a lot of what is liked/disliked (or maybe all of it) comes from sensation or maybe an emotional reaction. It looks as if there are degrees to which something is liked or not - it isn't black and white. As I write this is all just coming up so it is what I am seeing in AE and I like it :-)

Go through it and it is enough for me if you just give me some examples.
Try not to go into a intellectual response here, fresh from the gut is the best in this case, allow the answers to come and not to be thought up.

Jadzia, I hope what I've written about what I'm experiencing right now in answering your questions is clear. I haven't sat thinking about any of it - it's all what has just come up as I started writing.

And
this quite well shows that thoughts have a gift - with thoughts one can do cleaning up, once one takes the very honest gut approach.
And
looking at the story, which is all thoughts, is one of the keys to breaking free.

Can you explain this more please? I'm not sure I'm totally understanding what you mean here.....

Thank you for the Isabelle Allende reference - I love her writing, it is exquisite.
Thank you Jadzia
Love
Sara

...getting lost in thought just happens until we are not lost in thought....oooohhhh!

Exactly.
Isn't it a thought that getting lost in thougths isn't such an as good thing as being totally in the here and now?

The thing I see right now is that things are liked/not liked based on whether the sensation is a comfortable or pleasant one or not.

I get your point. But what with folks who enjoy pain? So one sensation labeled pain can be seen as pleasant and as not pleasant.
Think of smoker, cigarette smoke never feels nice in the throat and chest and yet smoking is pleasant.
So how is it known what is pleasant or unpleasant? We both do agree that both these words are labels, right?

looking at the story, which is all thoughts, is one of the keys to breaking free.

If we go exploring we need to use words, otherwise we two wouldn't be able to communicate. Thoughts are fooling us but they are helpful in looking through illusions, too.
This is a good example of the As Well As.

If we invest sensation you can go to older experiences, too, since thinking of something allows that what is still there to come up, like sensations.
But for now simply be observant, or rather watch like a hawk, for pleasant, unpleasant.
Check if it can be really known, in the sense of DE, that it is pleasant, or if this is part of thought story, which is mainly formed by conditioning, beliefs and so on?
Check the thoughts appearing at pleasant and not so pleasant experiences, just observe without judgement. Look out for patterns, repetitions and nonsense. Yes, you read right, not exactly all labels thoughts add make sense.

Explore this and when you come back with what you have to share a nice relaxing excercise will wait for you. :-)

Love,
Jadzia

Good afternoon Jadzia

...getting lost in thought just happens until we are not lost in thought....oooohhhh!

Exactly. Isn't it a thought that getting lost in thougths isn't such an as good thing as being totally in the here and now?

Ha ha....yes, I see that - brilliant. So it's not the thoughts that matter, or the getting lost in them...there is no judgment about it. But doesn't it help to be able to have enough awareness to come back to being present? Or maybe that doesn't actually matter either....

The thing I see right now is that things are liked/not liked based on whether the sensation is a comfortable or pleasant one or not.

I get your point. But what with folks who enjoy pain? So one sensation labeled pain can be seen as pleasant and as not pleasant.
Think of smoker, cigarette smoke never feels nice in the throat and chest and yet smoking is pleasant.
So how is it known what is pleasant or unpleasant? We both do agree that both these words are labels, right?

It's funny, on my walk this morning - before I got your message - I wanted to write you another message saying "wow Jadzia, I'm just seeing that like/dislike are just labels/thoughts we put on things that happen like any other word/label"!!!! Hee hee :-)!
So yes...we do things that might feel uncomfortable but still we like to do or experience them. Although, if someone were being tortured...I suppose the torture and pain would just be happening and the body would be reacting - there wouldn't be space for thoughts saying "I don't like this" - there would just be reactions. (Sorry...I've worked with refugees who have been tortured and suddenly wondered about it.)
Yes, the words are just labels :-).

This is a good example of the As Well As.

Jadzia, does this mean something in LU. Of course I know that in general we say something like "oh I'll have that as well as that" - is this what you are meaning?

But for now simply be observant, or rather watch like a hawk, for pleasant, unpleasant.
Check if it can be really known, in the sense of DE, that it is pleasant, or if this is part of thought story, which is mainly formed by conditioning, beliefs and so on?
Check the thoughts appearing at pleasant and not so pleasant experiences, just observe without judgement. Look out for patterns, repetitions and nonsense. Yes, you read right, not exactly all labels thoughts add make sense.

Since receiving your message earlier I've been noticing something strange...if something 'unpleasant' happens thoughts just seem to say the obvious.
So, as an example: sitting in the sun feeling warm then suddenly the sun goes and immediately it is really cold and my bones feel cold. There is a thought stating the obvious when I already know how I feel - it says "oh it's cold" duh!!!
But what is interesting is that in the sun, feeling warm, there are no 'complaining' thoughts - there is just warmth being experienced - this could be labeled 'like' 'pleasant' but they are just descriptions of what is already happening.
I am also aware of thoughts describing a neck pain when I already know it is there without thought to tell me it's not enjoying it! This is interesting because the thought is making it personal, saying "poor me". But there are happy things and nice things going on and those are just being enjoyed - no thoughts to say what's happening - that's interesting. Maybe, in the topic of like/dislike, thoughts like to moan but not to celebrate.
This morning I was just standing, pretending I was an alien with no awareness of white or snow or sun glinting on snow like diamonds or the icy crunching of the snow underfoot. I watched the dogs - they have no labels for any of it, they just enjoy it. Anyway, the feeling was just so lovely; not to be burdened with so many words taking the enjoyment out of things - just being in it, experiencing :-).

Explore this and when you come back with what you have to share a nice relaxing excercise will wait for you. :-)

I know I've only been doing the exercise for a short while but it has been amazing to see that what happens happens and how we experience and react to it is just that, a bodily reaction. But thought suddenly judges it all as like/dislike/comfortable/uncomfortable etc. So, in AE, there is nothing apart from the experience to which the body reacts...oh wow!

Thank you Jadzia
Love
Sara

But doesn't it help to be able to have enough awareness to come back to being present?

Who or what is aware and who or what chooses what to do?

As well as isn't a LU term or specifically LU. As Well As is what is! And you do know it, maybe not in its fullest consequence yet, but you do know.
Awareness in the present, hm yes, nice, good, good for living, but isn't it the same awareness in being lost in thoughts?
Is one relly higher leveled than the other?
As well as?
You know the ying yang sign, a light spot in the dark and a dark spot in the light figure - as well as.

I wanted to write you another message saying "wow Jadzia, I'm just seeing that like/dislike are just labels/thoughts we put on things that happen like any other word/label"!!!! Hee hee :-)!

Beautiful!

....if something 'unpleasant' happens thoughts just seem to say the obvious.

And it might even be the same, exact same it says each time.
We do think of ourselves as wonderful thinker, rich in thinking, varied and so on.... is it really so? Or are many thoughts repetitions and now and then we do have wonderful epiphanies?

Maybe, in the topic of like/dislike, thoughts like to moan but not to celebrate.

This might be part of the sara story, good you noticed. Each character in a story has preferences of modes of thinking. No need to analyse the why and bla bla, just noticing.

Here is the promised exercise:
The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yy5pL-myDzw

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.

Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

What did you find when doing this exercise?
Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?
And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

Love,
Jadzia

Hi Jadzia

But doesn't it help to be able to have enough awareness to come back to being present?

Who or what is aware and who or what chooses what to do?

...I don't know...something just shifts or wakes up but I can't find anything actually doing this!!! How on earth does that just happen, suddenly waking up out of being lost in thought...?????????

We do think of ourselves as wonderful thinker, rich in thinking, varied and so on.... is it really so? Or are many thoughts repetitions and now and then we do have wonderful epiphanies?

What you have just said here is helpful. Yes, there seems to be so much repetition going around and around - arrrrgggh, it's noisy 'in here' - where? where is it noisy? In my head it would seem but how??? How is there a silent but very busy voice in there - it doesn't make sense - especially following the exercise you gave me.
Yes, sometimes something comes as a revelation/epiphany but then that's more like an 'AHA' in awareness rather than what I would label thought...that probably makes no sense. Epiphanies just seem to happen, not be thought...

Here is the promised exercise:
The following link is a 7 minute clip of a soccer game. If you prefer another sport…please feel free to find one to do this exercise with.

It's funny, I'd read your message but hadn't got time to watch the game before walking the dogs so I used the outline of the exercise with 'my' thoughts while walking. When I turned up the volume on my thoughts they just felt unnecessary. Sometimes they were about what was happening in front of me but sometimes they were just nonsense and sometimes fantasy. I got home and was really keen to do the exercise having gone through it while walking. Here is what came up while watching:

1. Watch one minute with the sound turned OFF, watching ‘people’ messing about with a round thing on a field, up and down, up and down. Let it sink in, the whole experience.

Just watching forms run around chasing a round thing - just watching, noticing difference.

2. Once the first minute is completed, now watch another whole minute with the commentary turned ON.Notice the differences. Notice how the commentator (thought) offers lots of know-how, even advice. It seems to feel as though they can influence, somehow, what is going on, as though one outcome is much preferred to the opposite outcome. The commentary may seem to heighten any supporter feelings which are there, and call for an identification with one team or other, and with the importance of the game itself.

This was strange, I felt annoyance at the commentator because, for a lot of the time, he wasn't talking about what was going on but it was so loud and distracted focus from the forms moving about. There was thought that if I were more interested in football then the commentator could have possibly drawn me in but also, at the same time, I wasn't sure whether that was true - there was a flash of realisation that I prefer to watch tennis without the commentary because most of it is supposition, expectation, assumption and story telling - aha!!!

3. Now turn the volume OFF AGAIN and just watch the action with NO audible commentary, the shapes moving around on the screen etc. Again notice all the differences in what is appearing as experience.

With the sound off this time, there was more interest to enjoy what the forms were doing such as jumping at each other. Mostly it just felt peaceful watching and quite meditative because there was nothing I needed to do...WOW WOW WOW!!!

4. Now turn the volume ON again and ignore what you think you know thought is talking about, and just notice it as sound.

Aaaarrrgghhhh...so much noise out of tune with the movement of the forms.

Is the commentary on the soccer game a necessity for the play to happen?

No

And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

No

Thank you Jadzia
Love
Sara

I don't know...something just shifts or wakes up but I can't find anything actually doing this!!! How on earth does that just happen, suddenly waking up out of being lost in thought...?????????

Life simply happening? Just happen to fall into thought and just happen to fall out of thoughts, well..... ;-)

Epiphanies just seem to happen, not be thought...

They dress up as thoughts, and yet are the usual rambling, they are like a ray of sunshine on a cloudy day.

Sometimes they were about what was happening in front of me but sometimes they were just nonsense and sometimes fantasy.

Sounds like the usual mixture, partly amusing, partly helpful, partly whatever. lol

Mostly it just felt peaceful watching and quite meditative because there was nothing I needed to do...WOW WOW WOW!!!

Interesting. Usually thoughts are a lot about what to do, and when, and how and so on. Yes it is relaxing when happening just happens.

And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?
No

How do you feel with this?
What does it tell you about the importance of thoughts for action?

Love,
Jadzia

Hi and thank you for your quick response Jadzia ☺️🙏☺️.

Mostly it just felt peaceful watching and quite meditative because there was nothing I needed to do...WOW WOW WOW!!!

Interesting. Usually thoughts are a lot about what to do, and when, and how and so on. Yes it is relaxing when happening just happens.

Oh... This bit though wasn't about the commentary/thoughts - it was my response to the volume being turned off so there was no commentary so all I had to do was sit back and watch and let it happen - there was no commentary to interfere with what was happening. That's what I meant. When the commentary was on, it wasn't so relaxing. So what I said was referring to your point about the volume being turned off. Maybe I've missed something, I wouldn't be surprised🤭🙊🤭....????

And in the same way, is the inner narration of thought a necessity for the play of life to happen?

No

How do you feel with this?

I don't think I feel anything about this realisation - it's as if something deep inside (or wherever) is saying "ooh yes, I know that" and that's it.

What does it tell you about the importance of thoughts for action?

Well really, it's clear - while thoughts are part of what is happening/AE - they and their content are not necessary for any action. Life/action/AE happens all by itself. It's becoming clearer and clearer ☺️.

Thank you 🙏
Love
Sara