Getting closer ...

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

If your comments are about speculation, then I have to point that out for you, since speculations are dead ends. So it’s not about me getting pissed off :) it’s about divert your attention back to the direction which is fruitful and not let you wander on a dead end road.

Yes, I understand. I am learning...slowly.
I'm happy to share them and then have you re-direct me for now. Eventually I hope to learn to be able to recognise them and change direction.

And please describe me that creator (that something).
Where is its location?
How does it look like? How big it is? What shape it has? Does it have a texture? Color?
Does it make a sound? What sound? Does it have a smell?

It has no location. And no appearance. No shape or size. No texture/colour. No sound either.
And it has no smell.

Tell me anything you discover about that something/creator of thoughts.

No, it cannot be known.
Like God - it is bigger than we can know....and at the same time it is Everything we are (not in a speculative sense...just a spiritual sense).

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

No, it cannot be known.
Like God - it is bigger than we can know....and at the same time it is Everything we are (not in a speculative sense...just a spiritual sense).

Please don’t bring God into this picture. That would be just another speculation.

So, the fact is that you cannot find this SUPPOSED ‘something’ that is SUPPOSEDLY creating thoughts. Right?

So look again. Think of a number.

Is there REALLY a thinker/something/creator or it’s just ASSUMED BY THOUGHTS?

Can you find a thinker/something/creator in reality (experience) or just find THOUGHTS ABOUT IT?

Viven

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

But you said in a previous post:

We won’t make conclusions about god, spirit, or the meaning of life. What conclusions you draw about these topics is up to you.

So as I understood it, it's up to me if I want to conclude that the 'unknowable quality' is God.

Please don’t bring God into this picture.

I've steered clear of the topic as much as I possibly can :)

So, the fact is that you cannot find this SUPPOSED ‘something’ that is SUPPOSEDLY creating thoughts. Right?

Yes, agreed.

Is there REALLY a thinker/something/creator or it’s just ASSUMED BY THOUGHTS?

Can you find a thinker/something/creator in reality (experience) or just find THOUGHTS ABOUT IT?

No, not in experience. So I think we're in agreement on this.
(It was only the issue of getting into philosophizing around the topic of the ultimate Creator that was the problem - and I'm happy to keep that out of the picture, with each of us respecting each other in terms of our our own personal spiritual beliefs).
So, there's no thinker, or 'something' which can be found. And no separate-self creator, or creator with a small 'c'. Anything about that, are just thoughts.

Hope this clarifies.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

So as I understood it, it's up to me if I want to conclude that the 'unknowable quality' is God.

Yes, it’s up to you, but it has nothing to do with this inquiry.

And you compared your perception of God to the thinker. And this comparison is a thought speculation only.

So you have an opinion/conclusion about God (which is up to you to have), but you applied the same conclusion to the thinker… and this is a dead end.

Since we are NOT thinking and trying to figure out what the thinker is and compare it to other things. All comparison happens only in thinking. All comparison is nothing else than thought speculation. Dead end.

No, not in experience. So I think we're in agreement on this.
(It was only the issue of getting into philosophizing around the topic of the ultimate Creator that was the problem - and I'm happy to keep that out of the picture, with each of us respecting each other in terms of our our own personal spiritual beliefs).

You see, you are SPECULATING that the thinker might be the ultimate creator.

Speculating = thinking

And thinking is not looking at experience.

What we are doing here is to check the validity of thoughts. If thoughts are telling the truth. We are checking if thoughts assumptions can stand the scrutiny of reality (experience). Is this totally clear?

So, there's no thinker, or 'something' which can be found. And no separate-self creator, or creator with a small 'c'. Anything about that, are just thoughts.

Have you come to this conclusion by thinking or by actually looking at experience directly?

It’s very important that your statements come from experiential conviction, and not just from intellectualization.

And it’s also important that we don’t divert our conversation into conceptualization.
We would just waste our time with that.
And I definitely don’t have time to waste, I’m guiding about 15 people freely in my spare time.

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

What we are doing here is to check the validity of thoughts. If thoughts are telling the truth. We are checking if thoughts assumptions can stand the scrutiny of reality (experience). Is this totally clear?
So, there's no thinker, or 'something' which can be found. And no separate-self creator, or creator with a small 'c'. Anything about that, are just thoughts.
Have you come to this conclusion by thinking or by actually looking at experience directly?

It is clear and I have come to the conclusion by looking directly.

And you compared your perception of God to the thinker. And this comparison is a thought speculation only.

Yes that's how it looked, but that's not what I meant. I meant it in the sense of God being All There Is (which includes everything that exists in creation).

You see, you are SPECULATING that the thinker might be the ultimate creator.

See answer as per above.

And it’s also important that we don’t divert our conversation into conceptualization.
We would just waste our time with that.
And I definitely don’t have time to waste

I think it was time well-spent to distinguish the creator of thoughts from the ultimate Creator. It's been useful, and it helps me - as I have to feel safe in this investigation and not feel like I'm being dragged into atheism (as that's a real trigger-point for me. I was transparent about that right at the start).
It's an easy enough mistake to make - getting creator with a small 'c' confused with the Creator in the ultimate sense.

(Honesty: I am feeling some fear of abandonment coming up right now. Like you might not stick with me when there are tricky areas.)

I’m guiding about 15 people freely in my spare time

Yes, and it is much appreciated, the work you do. I am benefitting from it and am very grateful for your time.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

I think it was time well-spent to distinguish the creator of thoughts from the ultimate Creator. It's been useful, and it helps me - as I have to feel safe in this investigation and not feel like I'm being dragged into atheism (as that's a real trigger-point for me. I was transparent about that right at the start).

All rights, it’s good that you found it helpful.

(Honesty: I am feeling some fear of abandonment coming up right now. Like you might not stick with me when there are tricky areas.)

As I said I won’t abandon you. You don’t have to worry about that :)
But it doesn’t mean that I won’t say something that you won’t like.
So if there is a risk, then it’s not that I might abandon you, the risk is if you abandon the inquiry because of that.

Now let’s continue.

1. Place both hands on a table in front of you, palms down.
2. When you have done that, rest for a moment and then raise one hand in the air but not the other.

Don't go to thoughts, examine your direct experience. Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?
Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?
What is it that is controlling the hand?
Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?
Can anything be found that makes the hand move?
How is the decision made?
Can a decision maker be found?

Please reply to all the questions one-by-one.
I would like to ask you not just do the exercise once, but many-many times.

Also, when you are not doing the exercise, constantly watch out how things happen, if there is a thinker or chooser, decider. Always be on watch-out, so to speak. The more effort you put in looking, the more time you spend with looking, the more benefit you can have. Spend as much waking hours with looking as you can (even if it's just 10-30 seconds at a time).

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

As I said I won’t abandon you. You don’t have to worry about that :)

Thanks Vivien :)

I would like to ask you not just do the exercise once, but many-many times.

Also, when you are not doing the exercise, constantly watch out how things happen, if there is a thinker or chooser, decider. Always be on watch-out, so to speak. The more effort you put in looking, the more time you spend with looking, the more benefit you can have. Spend as much waking hours with looking as you can (even if it's just 10-30 seconds at a time).

I tried the raising one hand exercise after you sent the message yesterday. Several times, but I need to do it some more to get a better look, so that I can reply to the questions properly, one-by-one..
I also spent a bit of time here and there today looking for a chooser/controller/doer, and noticed on several occasions the way I'm just doing things on autopilot. I'll keep looking at this too.

Will write you again after I've run thru' the raising hand exercise some more.

Speak soon,

Chris

[Vivien]

Thank you for letting me know. Take your time.

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Okay, I've spent a good hour and a half with this...

What is it exactly that is choosing which hand to raise?

It is hard to say exactly, as I'm looking - with quiet mind - it seems like there are body sensations which choose. Sometimes accompanied with a quick visual imagery. Somewhere in the centre of the head, and they sway from right to left, weighing it up.
But its real subtle.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is doing the choosing?

If there could be said to be anything doing the choosing, it would seem to be these sensations.
But they're not present every single time I lift a hand and so they're not completely consistent.

What is it that is controlling the hand?

Either these sensations...or something else that I can't find, or....nothing?!

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

If there is a something, then it is in the middle of the head. If there is no controller i.e. nothing, then no there is no location.

Can anything be found that makes the hand move?

I am doing the exercise in between typing each reply to these questions. And it does seem like there is something doing it. Its so subtle.
Like a little piece of conscious awareness or something (...are you gonna say this is speculation? It does seem like I am observing an intelligent awareness present when I do this exercise).

How is the decision made?

If there is something, then it seems to sway from side to side, left to right, weighing it up.
But sometimes....it's instant!

Can a decision maker be found?

It's pretty hard to find as a reliable, solid entity. If anything it's really vague.

This was a more difficult exercise than I'd anticipated. I watched like a hawk....and I failed to give solid, concise answers above, finding a solid, concise controller/chooser/activator. It was just too damn elusive...

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

I am doing the exercise in between typing each reply to these questions. And it does seem like there is something doing it. Its so subtle.
Like a little piece of conscious awareness or something (...are you gonna say this is speculation? It does seem like I am observing an intelligent awareness present when I do this exercise).

You know where when you are speculating :) Yes, it’s a speculation.

And how can you know that? Because of the words: “it SEEMS LIKE” or “LIKE this or that”

Be careful with expressions with ‘SEEMS’. A SEEMING thing is NOT an actual thing.

Every time a sentence starts with “it seems” or “it feels like” or “as if” is the sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy, just the content of a thought, and not an actual bodily sensation or a real thing. It’s not coming from looking at experience directly, rather from thought speculation.
Can you see this?

If there could be said to be anything doing the choosing, it would seem to be these sensations.

Please read your above comment.

Do you see that you said: ‘It would SEEM to be sensations’?

Can you see that it’s just a guess?

It is hard to say exactly, as I'm looking - with quiet mind - it seems like there are body sensations which choose.

Again: “It SEEMS LIKE there is bodily sensation which choose”. You see that it’s just a thought speculation?

Please repeat the exercise, and this time focus on this SEEMING sensation. FEEL it.
There could a sensation present, BUT:


Does this sensation choose, really?

Is this sensation an agency with will, who has a power to perform the act of choosing?

If there is a something, then it is in the middle of the head. If there is no controller i.e. nothing, then no there is no location.

IF ???? - The thing is that we are not guessing here. Guessing comes from thinking. It’s purely intellectual speculation.

What we do is to check whether there is ACTUALLY a DECIDER in reality, or it’s just imagined. Can you see this?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Sorry if this one's a bit messy. Doing my best here...

And how can you know that? Because of the words: “it SEEMS LIKE” or “LIKE this or that”

Yes, I've noticed this of course...
But they are the only words I can find to express what I am looking at. There's not absolutely nothing. When I look...there is activity present. Sensations are present....and it seems (ha - there I go again) like they are interacting with the action of moving the hand, or of deciding which hand to move.

But I cannot say with certainty that these sensations are a controller. So the only words available to me are that it 'seems' like they relate to the hand movement.

Do you see that you said: ‘It would SEEM to be sensations’?

Can you see that it’s just a guess?

I can see that mind and thoughts are trying to figure it out.

Does this sensation choose, really?

I can't say that it 100% chooses, no. I cannot definitively say this.
Only that it interacts in some way with the hand. Is related, or relating in some way, to the hand.
The mind speculates to try and find an answer.

Is this sensation an agency with will, who has a power to perform the act of choosing?

No I cannot definitively say that it is.

Every time a sentence starts with “it seems” or “it feels like” or “as if” is the sure sign that what will follow is just an analogy, just the content of a thought, and not an actual bodily sensation or a real thing. It’s not coming from looking at experience directly, rather from thought speculation.
Can you see this?

Am a bit confused with this sentence. I am observing actual bodily sensations. I am observing the hand moving. I am observing a relationship between the two.
Aren't I?
It seems/feels like/as if I might be going insane - haha :)

There could a sensation present, BUT:

Ah - so you acknowledge at least that something is present (thank goodness for that).

Does this sensation choose, really?

I'm not sure...

Is this sensation an agency with will, who has a power to perform the act of choosing?

I just did the experiment again and...
It certainly mimicks a controller pretty well when it wants to!

What the hell is it doing then - this sensation??

What we do is to check whether there is ACTUALLY a DECIDER in reality, or it’s just imagined. Can you see this?

Yes, I see that this is the approach.
But understanding what the approach is, and being good at it are two different things :(

But...I don't feel huge resistance to the approach right now. So that's a good sign at least.

Honesty: I think there may be some resistance to unknown/unknowable though.

Thank you for all your ongoing help and support Vivien. I am amazed you have so much patience.

Chris

[Vivien]

Hi Chris,

Here are lots of questions for you. Please don’t just think through them, but LOOK at them very closely. Don’t rush. Be thorough. Make sure that what you notice is not just an assumption or speculation or guessing, but rather experiential facts.

V: There could a sensation present, BUT:

C: Ah - so you acknowledge at least that something is present (thank goodness for that).

Aren’t bodily sensations almost always present?

But just because there are sensations, does this mean that the sensations are some kind of entities?

Because you are talking as if there were living, real, substantial entities inside the body (in form or sensations) who have will to choose. But is this so? Or is this just a speculation?

But they are the only words I can find to express what I am looking at. There's not absolutely nothing.

And why should be there absolutely nothing?

Do you expect to existence to stop existing? Should sensations, sounds, tastes, smells, colors, thoughts stop appearing?
There are sensations present. So what?

What do sensations have to do with choosing which hand to raise?

Is there REALLY an connection between bodily sensations to which hand to choose?

Can you OBSERVER the PROCESS as sensations are PERFORMING the ACT of CHOOSING?

Sensations are present....and it seems (ha - there I go again) like they are interacting with the action of moving the hand, or of deciding which hand to move.

We are not looking for SEEMING things, we are looking for ACTUAL REAL things.


Are sensations more than just sensations?

Are there little tiny men inside those sensations, like puppet masters pulling strings and making things to happen?

Vivien

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien,

I'm gonna take a little longer to give this a read again slowly a few more times...and will get back to you soon.

Chris

[Chris1001]

Hi Vivien

Aren’t bodily sensations almost always present?
Yes, almost always.

But just because there are sensations, does this mean that the sensations are some kind of entities?
No

Because you are talking as if there were living, real, substantial entities inside the body (in form or sensations) who have will to choose. But is this so? Or is this just a speculation?
It is speculation

And why should be there absolutely nothing?
It is a speculation, or fear, that the direction we are going in there will be nothing left (no chooser, no controller etc)
In experience there is nothing to suggest there would be absolutely nothing.

Do you expect to existence to stop existing? Should sensations, sounds, tastes, smells, colors, thoughts stop appearing?
There are sensations present. So what?
No I don't expect experience to stop existing.
Sensations, sounds, tastes, smells, colours shouldn't stop appearing. Right now they haven't stopped appearing.
There are sensations present right now that I'm aware of.

What do sensations have to do with choosing which hand to raise?
I am looking for them to have something to do with choosing which hand. Or...thoughts are looking for them to have something to do with it.

Is there REALLY an connection between bodily sensations to which hand to choose?
Thoughts speculate on this.
But...I don't know right now in this moment.

Can you OBSERVER the PROCESS as sensations are PERFORMING the ACT of CHOOSING?
No

Are sensations more than just sensations?
No

Are there little tiny men inside those sensations, like puppet masters pulling strings and making things to happen?
No, of course not

Chris

[Chris1001]

p.s. sorry I forgot the quote function this time..