Requesting assistance

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

So there was no emotional reaction to the shift? No surprise or ‘OMG!’?

It was sort of like that, yes, though not with a particularly big emotional reaction. However there were emotions leading up to that point, if you recall, such as the low mood (which was unusual) and some bodily shivering-like experiences that were also unusual.

Your replies sound clear, but something is missing. As if it didn’t sink in. As if it were just a change in beliefs and not a deep experiential shift. What would you say to this?

I would say yes this seems accurate. There's a shift in perception but I wouldn't say it's "deep experiential shift".

Does it feel that the only difference is a change in beliefs or in understanding? That you saw that that there is no doer and then a thought came “Ohh… that’s how it is” – as if you understood it finally? Or has it sink in to the visceral level and have become a deep conviction without any doubt whatsoever?

There isn't doubt, but the deep, visceral, ever-present conviction isn't prevalent as you seem to be describing.

May we keep going?

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

It was sort of like that, yes, though not with a particularly big emotional reaction. However there were emotions leading up to that point, if you recall, such as the low mood (which was unusual) and some bodily shivering-like experiences that were also unusual.

Probably it was a shift in understanding, but not a shift in experience.
It’s possible to take on no-self as a belief without being aware that there has been a shift in beliefs (understanding) only, just replacing one belief with another. This shift in belief/understanding can be very convincing, but the only way you can see this is in retrospect, once a real, deep experiential shift has happened. And my job is this and point it out to you.

May we keep going?

Yes, definitely. We don’t stop until there is a clear shift and no more doubts left.

Please put the focus on the feeling of the self/me and tell me how is it felt?

Please don't say that there is no self, but tell me how self is felt here now.
Search for the feeling that relates to the me.

And also, during the day, whatever you do, watch like a hawk for the self or the ‘feeling of me’ to arise.
How does the self show up?
As a feeling? Or as a sensation?
As a thought? As a visual thought?
As a doer? Decider? Chooser?
Feeler? Hearer? Seer?
Experiencer? Knower? Watcher?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

Just a note to let you know I'm taking some time with investigating each of these questions and will reply soon.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Thank you for letting me know. I'm looking forward to your replies.

Have a nice day,
Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

We don’t stop until there is a clear shift and no more doubts left.

Thanks for hanging in here with me.

Please put the focus on the feeling of the self/me and tell me how is it felt?.. tell me how self is felt here now. Search for the feeling that relates to the me.

The strongest feeling is a tension feeling in the throat and upper chest area. Around that there’s lots of thinking, lots of activity. If I were to elaborate here on what I’m observing, there’s a feeling that’s uncomfortable (that feeling in the throat/chest), which I would just call some flavor of fear, and that triggers lots of thinking, planning, which all takes on a life of its own.

During the day, whatever you do, watch like a hawk for the self or the ‘feeling of me’ to arise.
How does the self show up? As a feeling? Or as a sensation?
As a thought? As a visual thought?
As a doer? Decider? Chooser?
Feeler? Hearer? Seer?
Experiencer? Knower? Watcher?

Observing over the last couple of days, this has shown up mostly as described above. It starts as a sensation or feeling, usually uncomfortable, then goes into thinking, problem solving activity (could say doer, decider, chooser, problem solver). It’s not clear what that feeling is nor why it exists, but it seems to trigger this whole process.

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

V: During the day, whatever you do, watch like a hawk for the self or the ‘feeling of me’ to arise.
How does the self show up? As a feeling? Or as a sensation?
As a thought? As a visual thought?
As a doer? Decider? Chooser?
Feeler? Hearer? Seer?
Experiencer? Knower? Watcher?

B: Observing over the last couple of days, this has shown up mostly as described above. It starts as a sensation or feeling, usually uncomfortable, then goes into thinking, problem solving activity (could say doer, decider, chooser, problem solver). It’s not clear what that feeling is nor why it exists, but it seems to trigger this whole process.

Now, I would like to ask you to observer the same, how the ‘feeling of me’ arise in your everyday life.

But this time, when the ‘feeling of me’ arises, LOOK if there is actually a ‘me’ there.

When it feels that “I am decided, I choose, I solved this problem, I did this, then immediately look for the ‘me’ who claims all of these.

Let me know what you find.

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

Now, I would like to ask you to observer the same, how the ‘feeling of me’ arise in your everyday life. But this time, when the ‘feeling of me’ arises, LOOK if there is actually a ‘me’ there. When it feels that “I am decided, I choose, I solved this problem, I did this, then immediately look for the ‘me’ who claims all of these. Let me know what you find.

Okay I’ve been doing this and each time I look what I find is that there’s no me there. What is there is sensations (often some degree of emotional feelings), linked with thoughts, sounds, behaviors, feeding back to feelings, thoughts, and on and on. I also notice that just the act of looking seems to open perception up for a moment or a few minutes or as long as there's a looking at what's here, as though the sense of self kind of "turns off".

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

I also notice that just the act of looking seems to open perception up for a moment or a few minutes or as long as there's a looking at what's here, as though the sense of self kind of "turns off".

And is the ‘sense of self’ is YOU?

Is it clear that we are not looking for a SENSE (of self), but for a REAL self, for YOU?

So WHERE are YOU?
And WHAT are YOU?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

And is the ‘sense of self’ is YOU? Is it clear that we are not looking for a SENSE (of self), but for a REAL self, for YOU?

Thank you for this reminder. This is an important distinction. The sense vs. the thing, which I can’t find.

So WHERE are YOU?

I can’t find a place where I am. There’s stuff here, things happening, but no I that is found.

And WHAT are YOU?

I don’t know! I was going to ask you that question. What in the world am I, Vivien?

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

I can’t find a place where I am. There’s stuff here, things happening, but no I that is found.

Don’t you find this very strange that you can easily find the lamp or the body, but not yourself? The one you believed to be in your whole life?

It FEELS LIKE that the ‘me’, ‘I am’ is constantly here. It’s been here all the time. It SEEMS LIKE that. So supposedly, I am my most intimate experience. Everything comes and goes, but it SEEMS that I am constantly here.

But WHERE is this me that is supposedly constantly here?

I don’t know! I was going to ask you that question. What in the world am I, Vivien?

Don’t ask me :) Find it out for yourself.

Don’t think, just LOOK!

WHAT are you?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

Don’t you find this very strange that you can easily find the lamp or the body, but not yourself? The one you believed to be in your whole life?

Yes, very strange. Well, clearly I’m not a thing otherwise with all of this looking I’d have found me.

It FEELS LIKE that the ‘me’, ‘I am’ is constantly here. It’s been here all the time. It SEEMS LIKE that. So supposedly, I am my most intimate experience. Everything comes and goes, but it SEEMS that I am constantly here.
But WHERE is this me that is supposedly constantly here?

Well, I don’t know where it is. I’ve looked and looked and can’t find it.

Don’t think, just LOOK! WHAT are you?

When I just look, all that is here is a bunch of arisings in experience – ex: sights, sounds, sensations, thoughts. Then the question: how is all of this noticed, known?

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

Yes, very strange. Well, clearly I’m not a thing otherwise with all of this looking I’d have found me.

And non-things are ACTUAL EXISTING ‘things’?

HOW do you know that there is a ‘me’ if you are unable to find it?

When I just look, all that is here is a bunch of arisings in experience – ex: sights, sounds, sensations, thoughts. Then the question: how is all of this noticed, known?

Is there a noticer or a knower? Where?

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hello Vivien,

And non-things are ACTUAL EXISTING ‘things’?

No, non-things are not actual existing things. That means they don't exist; that I don't exist. But, then what is all of this?

HOW do you know that there is a ‘me’ if you are unable to find it?

Ok... currently it’s not so much that I believe there’s a me, just that there is confusion about what this is. It’s not a me, but what is it?

Is there a noticer or a knower? Where?

No, there isn’t a noticer, but noticing is happening. For some reason that’s confusing.

To summarize where the confusion is currently:
I can’t find a me. When you ask “what are you?”, I don’t know. I really don’t know. I'd say, well, that means I don't exist. But, then what is all of this? It’s not nothing, otherwise there wouldn’t be any hearing, thinking, feeling, etc. And then comes the question, what’s noticing that there’s hearing, thinking, feeling, seeing? What isn’t finding a me?

Thanks Vivien,

Brett

[Vivien]

Hi Brett,

To summarize where the confusion is currently:
I can’t find a me. When you ask “what are you?”, I don’t know. I really don’t know. I'd say, well, that means I don't exist. But, then what is all of this? It’s not nothing, otherwise there wouldn’t be any hearing, thinking, feeling, etc. And then comes the question, what’s noticing that there’s hearing, thinking, feeling, seeing? What isn’t finding a me?

Is there a noticer or witness outside of what is happening, looking at it?
Is there an experiencer + the experienced?

To see this, listen to the sounds, is there a hearer here and sound there? Or there is only the sound?
In touching, is there a feeler of touch and the sensation of touch? Or there is only one sensation?

Is there thinking + thought?
Is there seeing + seen?
Is there knowing + known?
Is there experiencing + experience?

Please go through the above questions one-by-one, and look at them very carefully.

Vivien

[BrandonA]

Hi Vivien,

Is there a noticer or witness outside of what is happening, looking at it?

No, there’s no “noticer”. Noticing is happening. Automatically.

Is there an experiencer + the experienced?
To see this, listen to the sounds, is there a hearer here and sound there? Or there is only the sound?

Only the sound.

In touching, is there a feeler of touch and the sensation of touch? Or there is only one sensation?

Only one sensation.

Is there thinking + thought?

No, thinking and thought are the same.

Is there seeing + seen?

No, seeing happens simultaneous with the seen.

Is there knowing + known?

No, just all of it at once.

Is there experiencing + experience?

No, they happen simultaneously.

So, noticing is happening simultaneous with what's noticed. There is no separate "noticer".
So, "what am I?" All of this. Experience. Still sitting with this.

Brett